Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

Crossbow said:
Actually, your very first posting in this thread said something quite different.

Specifically:
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"State sponsored atheism" with a link to an article that says "The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives" is "quite different" than "an avowedly atheist organisation"??

Ridiculous.
 
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Cosmic Yak said:
Obviously. Have you seriously not noticed the phrase "unyielding Marxist atheists" being used in this thread? Where do you think that comes from?
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The point is the abstraction "organization".
It's like describing Trump as some guy who lies a lot.
In most contexts, it is very important to stress that the guy also happens to be the president of the USA.
American Atheists is an "avowedly atheist organization," but they don't rule the country, they don't yield any real power over anybody, except, maybe, a few employees.
I don't really care where the phrase "unyielding Marxist atheists" comes from. They may call themselves Marxists, but their philosophies have nothing in common with Marx.
 
GDon said:
Are you kidding me? The 'website' is that of one of the largest daily Canadian newspapers, and that has been around for 150 years. As for the 'anonymous' informant:

The woman, whose name is not being used by The Globe and Mail for her protection...​

Do you have an Amnesty International report that you have in mind? Here is one I've found:
https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/ASA1791132018ENGLISH.PDF

Many call them “re-education camps”, but most are officially known as centres for “transformation-through education” (jiaoyu zhuanhua).26 Despite this bland-sounding name, the goal of these facilities appears to be replacement of religious affiliation and ethnic identity with secular, patriotic political allegiance.​

The description in the report seems consistent with what is reported by the Globe and Mail newspaper.


Support of ceremonies is not what I thought you meant when you wrote that the CCP "support traditional Chinese cults". They tolerate some religions as long as they put support of the CCP as one of their primary concerns. If you have any links to further information on the topic of "support of traditional Chinese cults" I'd love to see it.


How would it differ if the official politics of the regime was guided by atheism?


I'm not the one mixing party members with people in general. I've only been talking about the CCP. For example:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/a...munist-party-reinforces-ban-superstition.html

China's ruling Communist party has tightened its ban on members believing in "feudal superstitions", state media said, as part of new regulations on discipline....

Superstitious practices, such as reliance on fortune telling and the traditional Chinese practice of feng shui, go against the party's core belief in Marxism, which claims to be founded on the scientific method...

The new party rules, which came into force on January 1, threaten members who "organise" superstitious activities with expulsion, while those who merely participate in them face warnings, Xinhua said Sunday.​


So that's what the CCP is doing. Holy cow, The Big Dog is right!


I know we're not, if by "we" you mean the both of us. When are YOU going to start?
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GDon said:
I think the first one is that people in this thread are not so much denying but rather excusing or minimising the CCP's repression, and that certainly seems to be the case. They're just running education camps for a million people teaching popular science, no doubt by Beilu Nai the Science Guy!

The second one is the question that I am interested in: how much of the repression is due to the CCP's official stance of atheism? What are the ramifications of the metaphysical implications of such a stance? I suggest that there is some impact, hinted by the People's Daily's use of the phrase "the struggle between atheism and theism", etc. I'm happy to have that discussion, but it hasn't gone further than "it's false!" I think we can do better than that.

What do you think the People's Daily's use of "the struggle between atheism and theism" signifies, when issued by the official mouthpiece of the CCP?
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Secular is not atheism. What Chinese government is making is trying to place state patriotism (in China state and party are the same) in the first place. Traditionalist Muslims cannot accept this, because they believe that only Allah can be praised and only an Islamist state is legitimated. For them, secularization is the same sin that impiety. This is the same religious-political conflict with other Islamist movements in the world. The difference is that Chinese policy is totalitarian and is extended over almost all the Uighur population. Other important difference is that China has the problem into its boundaries, what is to say an inner separatist movement instead a war in far countries.

This is the explanation of the problem. If China were a Christian totalitarian state it would be the same. Totalitarian and Islamist policies are crashing. Atheism is not the game.

I don't know any atheist state. I suppose that an atheist state would try to erase all religions. But I don't know how. This is sheer speculation. I know the problem between the Chinese government and some religious cults and ethnic separatism.

About ancestor worship in China: https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/Chinese_Customs/taoism_ancestor_worship.htm
You can see the feast of ancestor in Google Images. Yo will see how the ceremonies are celebrated freely in public places. You can call this “tolerate”. It is the same for my argument that to support.

I don’t know who is “minimizing” the big problem in China with Human Rights and freedom of cult. What is “minimizing” for you? To say that atheism is not the problem? To make jokes of the Big Dog’s inept comments?
 
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GDon said:
What do you think the People's Daily's use of "the struggle between atheism and theism" signifies, when issued by the official mouthpiece of the CCP?
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I have no idea of what it means. Does It mean the state of emergency in Uighur district? Why? I don't see the link. Don't you think that my explanation is a little more complete?

In any case this is a strange atheist policy:
"From October 2004 to November 2005, with the common propagation of the Buddhist communities of Hong Kong, Macao and across the Taiwan Strait, the proposal of hosting the World Buddhist Forum in Mainland China won universal support and an active response from Buddhist communities in over 40 countries. The Chinese government gave assurances it would support the Buddhist community to host the grand historic event."
 
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The Big Dog said:
"State sponsored atheism" with a link to an article that says "The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives" is "quite different" than "an avowedly atheist organisation"??

Ridiculous.
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Well then, if your god so very great then your god should do something about the situation.

Also, if your religion is very great, then you should be able to answer the simple question that I have asked you many, many, many times now. But instead you have repeatedly ignored the question, dodge question, and otherwise evaded the question.
 
Crossbow said:
Well then, if your god so very great then your god should do something about the situation.
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He did, He gave me the gift of reason that allowed me to quickly demolish your frivolous claim.

protip: I have ignored the improper question with which you have embarrassingly flooded the thread.
 
GDon said:
That the government is officially atheist? Yes, of course. That's what they themselves claim :confused:
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Yes, but are they? How will you know?

Do you think that the CCP is claiming to be officially atheist, but only pretending?
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That is quite possible. Chinese rethorics is .... rather creative.

I'm beginning to think that The Big Dog is onto something. There seems to be a blind spot when it comes to Chinese government abuses. It's hard to explain the reactions in this thread otherwise.
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No, don't let The Big Dog fool you. Most are quite aware of it. However, read the opening post. You will see it is not about Chinese abuses, but about atheist abuses. That's the problem.

Hans
 
The Big Dog said:
He did, He gave me the gift of reason that allowed me to quickly demolish your frivolous claim.

protip: I have ignored the improper question with which you have embarrassingly flooded the thread.
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So now you are saying that while your god is powerful enough to give you the power of reason and at the same time this very same god of yours also refuses to help his own followers when these followers really could use the help.

Well now ...

With astonishing clear logic like that it is no wonder that you cannot answer my simple question, just like it is no wonder that your worthless god is also a non-existent god.
 
Crossbow said:
So now you are saying that while your god is powerful enough to give you the power of reason and at the same time this very same god of yours also refuses to help his own followers when these followers really could use the help.

Well now ...

With astonishing clear logic like that it is no wonder that you cannot answer my simple question, just like it is no wonder that your worthless god is also a non-existent god.
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Logic and gods are mutually exclusive. You can only pick one.
 
David Mo said:
This is the explanation of the problem. If China were a Christian totalitarian state it would be the same. Totalitarian and Islamist policies are crashing. Atheism is not the game.
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Would it be reasonable to ask how much Christianity influences the actions of a Christian totalitarian state against Islamist policies? I think it would be. What would you think of a Christian who dismissed the idea out of hand?

Besides, examples don't just include CCP actions against the Muslim Uigyurs. In this thread you can see examples against Buddhists, Falun Gong, etc.

David Mo said:
I don’t know who is “minimizing” the big problem in China with Human Rights and freedom of cult. What is “minimizing” for you? To say that atheism is not the problem?
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Yes, pretty much: to flatly even entertain the question, when it is a reasonable question.
 
David Mo said:
I have no idea of what it means. Does It mean the state of emergency in Uighur district? Why? I don't see the link. Don't you think that my explanation is a little more complete?
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If you can't account for the statement that it is a struggle of atheism against theism, then does that not suggest your explanation is not explaining the data available? Isn't that how a hypothesis is invalidated?

David Mo said:
In any case this is a strange atheist policy:
"From October 2004 to November 2005, with the common propagation of the Buddhist communities of Hong Kong, Macao and across the Taiwan Strait, the proposal of hosting the World Buddhist Forum in Mainland China won universal support and an active response from Buddhist communities in over 40 countries. The Chinese government gave assurances it would support the Buddhist community to host the grand historic event."
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But do you not see that the implications behind stating that it "is a strange atheist policy"? What would a "non-strange" atheist policy be in this regard? What you are saying about atheism in that you can define "strange" atheist policies, and how could we expect that to influence officially avowed atheist governments?
 
Cosmic Yak said:
I don't think it unreasonable for an avowedly atheist organisation to expect its members to be atheist.
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Exactly! But when the CCP insists their members be atheists, they could be pretending, at least according to another poster in this thread. Pretending pretty hard, too, since they state officially that they are atheist, and that CCP members should be firm Marxist atheists.

According to a 2017 article by the Global Times, a semi-official CCP mouthpiece:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1056944.shtml

The head of China's top religious affairs regulator said that Party members should not seek value and faith in religion, and that those who have religious beliefs should be persuaded to give them up, with experts saying this is meant to maintain Party unity.

"Party members should not have religious beliefs, which is a red line for all members … Party members should be firm Marxist atheists, obey Party rules and stick to the Party's faith … they are not allowed to seek value and belief in religion," Wang Zuoan, director of the State Administration for Religious Affairs (SARA) wrote in an article released in the Qiushi Journal on Saturday, the flagship magazine of the CPC Central Committee...​
 
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They sure as hell aren't Marxist atheists in the sense that they have understood and now practice the kind of atheism that Marx represents in his writings. I think I've proved that a couple of times in this thread. Unlike what TBD seems to think, Marx never recommended persecution of religious believers. On the contrary, he pitied them.
However, I don't see any reason to think that alleged Marxist atheists in China aren't actual atheists, i.e. the kind that thinks that (certain kinds of) religion and superstition are opposed to their kind of government.
 
The Big Dog said:
You still don't understand what I write, do you? I can do it with simpler language, if you like.

And I see that the ABC report has left you dizzy. I can also explain it to you if you cannot cope with it.

I post up to date analysis issued long after and updating the earlier reports, including the Amnesty report, yet refusing to even acknowledge that maybe, perhaps... there is new evidence regarding the scope of the problem? Like three different satellite views of the camps, from nothing to large to "enormous" which was from an image from October of 2018?

Holocaust CCP Pogrom deniers. what are ya gonna do?
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At last! If you used this descriptor from the start this thread would have been much shorter, not acrimonious and no doubt no fun for you. But at least a start. Yes, it is the Chinese authorities who are persecuting its citizens.
 
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