Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

[The Big Dog]

Mehmet Tohti of the World Uyghur Congress tells @AJEnglish that he wants sanctions to force China to end oppression of Uighers ethnic group. China faces Un human rights Council this morning in Geneva.

But perhaps apologists will tell sarcastically straw man and tell him to pray to Allah instead of addressing the actual human rights crisis.

 

[Rincewind]

Hmm. The strawman from the very first post.

 

[The Big Dog]

Hmm. The strawman from the very first post.

the irony, amazing.

you forgot to tell him to pray, come on, do it, you have been doing it all afternoon, while claiming that you are against the Chinese human rights abuses.

tell him to pray to Allah, Rincewood.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Hmm. The strawman from the very first post.

and carried on throughout.

 

[The Big Dog]

By the way? The contention that the opening post contains a straw man??

******* hilarious!

 

[GDon]

And, in this particular case, we should chose to take their words at face value?

That the government is officially atheist? Yes, of course. That's what they themselves claim

Do you think that the CCP is claiming to be officially atheist, but only pretending?

Name a country that tolerates a religion that is found to adversely affect society (as determined by the government).

Why?

I'm beginning to think that The Big Dog is onto something. There seems to be a blind spot when it comes to Chinese government abuses. It's hard to explain the reactions in this thread otherwise.

 

[David Mo]

"Support" traditional Chinese cults? Does the Chinese Communist Party in fact support traditional cults? Some non-religious aspects of Confucianism perhaps. But a quick Google search shows lots of articles where government officials are sacked for being involved in cults and superstitions like fortune telling.

Which traditional Chinese cults do they support, and how do they support them? If they do, I'd love to know. You might well be right, but it seems to go against what I've read to date.


Is that the case? Nothing to do with atheism? This is allegedly from Uighurs who have attended the camps:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...ecount-abuse-in-chinese-re-education-centres/

Authorities in China’s far western Xinjiang province have made loyalty to President Xi Jinping a central part of an extensive political re-education campaign that requires detainees to swear allegiance to the Communist Party while forswearing a Muslim faith that they are told to repeat is “stupid.”...

... The woman, whose name is not being used by The Globe and Mail for her protection, was put through regular self-criticism sessions. Part of the content was cultural. “My soul is infected with serious diseases,” she would repeat. “There is no God. I don’t believe in God. I believe in the Communist Party.”​

Where are you getting your information about what indoctrination was being done at the internment camps from?

And keep in mind that what is happening is consistent with the actions of the CCP elsewhere in China. According to a BBC article from 1999:

The Chinese Communist Party has launched a three-year drive to promote atheism in the Buddhist region of Tibet, saying it is the key to economic progress and a weapon against separatism as typified by the exiled Tibetan leader, the Dalai Lama...

Xiao called on Party members at all levels to pursue the campaign through the media and public organizations, with the emphasis on promoting popular science...

"They also pledged to make protracted and relentless efforts to continuously enhance the quality of propaganda on atheism."​

You are willing to believe an anonymous informant who appears on a website rather than an Amnesty International report. I cannot do nothing with your credulity.

You are misinformed. Ancestor worship or Buddhism are practised in China without any problem. I have seen a documentary with a ceremony in the Forbidden City that could not have been carried out without the party's approval. These religions have no problems because they are "authentically Chinese," according to the authorities. This included "Patriotic Catholicism" and similar. This imply that the official politics of the regime doesn't is guided by atheism but by authoritarian control of religions. It is like other aspects of civilian society that have nothing to do with religion or atheism.

Is fortune telling not a superstition? Is it a religion? Note that we are not speaking of party members, but people in general. You mix too many things.

By the way, are you against a government promoting popular science? I remind you that we are not discussing whether the Chinese government promotes atheism but whether atheism is the cause of the repression of clandestine churches and the Uighur people.

 

[David Mo]

I'm beginning to think that The Big Dog is onto something. There seems to be a blind spot when it comes to Chinese government abuses. It's hard to explain the reactions in this thread otherwise.

Big Dog maniacally repeats two things:
That we are denying the Chinese government's repression of some religious minorities and that this repression is due to the Chinese government's atheism.

Do you agree with both? The first is insane. The second is false.

 

[GDon]

You are willing to believe an anonymous informant who appears on a website rather than an Amnesty International report. I cannot do nothing with your credulity.

Are you kidding me? The 'website' is that of one of the largest daily Canadian newspapers, and that has been around for 150 years. As for the 'anonymous' informant:

The woman, whose name is not being used by The Globe and Mail for her protection...​

Do you have an Amnesty International report that you have in mind? Here is one I've found:
https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/ASA1791132018ENGLISH.PDF

Many call them “re-education camps”, but most are officially known as centres for “transformation-through education” (jiaoyu zhuanhua).26 Despite this bland-sounding name, the goal of these facilities appears to be replacement of religious affiliation and ethnic identity with secular, patriotic political allegiance.​

The description in the report seems consistent with what is reported by the Globe and Mail newspaper.

You are misinformed. Ancestor worship or Buddhism are practised in China without any problem. I have seen a documentary with a ceremony in the Forbidden City that could not have been carried out without the party's approval.

Support of ceremonies is not what I thought you meant when you wrote that the CCP "support traditional Chinese cults". They tolerate some religions as long as they put support of the CCP as one of their primary concerns. If you have any links to further information on the topic of "support of traditional Chinese cults" I'd love to see it.

These religions have no problems because they are "authentically Chinese," according to the authorities. This included "Patriotic Catholicism" and similar. This imply that the official politics of the regime doesn't is guided by atheism but by authoritarian control of religions.

How would it differ if the official politics of the regime was guided by atheism?

Is fortune telling not a superstition? Is it a religion? Note that we are not speaking of party members, but people in general. You mix too many things.

I'm not the one mixing party members with people in general. I've only been talking about the CCP. For example:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/a...munist-party-reinforces-ban-superstition.html

China's ruling Communist party has tightened its ban on members believing in "feudal superstitions", state media said, as part of new regulations on discipline....

Superstitious practices, such as reliance on fortune telling and the traditional Chinese practice of feng shui, go against the party's core belief in Marxism, which claims to be founded on the scientific method...

The new party rules, which came into force on January 1, threaten members who "organise" superstitious activities with expulsion, while those who merely participate in them face warnings, Xinhua said Sunday.​

By the way, are you against a government promoting popular science?

So that's what the CCP is doing. Holy cow, The Big Dog is right!

I remind you that we are not discussing whether the Chinese government promotes atheism but whether atheism is the cause of the repression of clandestine churches and the Uighur people.

I know we're not, if by "we" you mean the both of us. When are YOU going to start?

 

[GDon]

Big Dog maniacally repeats two things:
That we are denying the Chinese government's repression of some religious minorities and that this repression is due to the Chinese government's atheism.

Do you agree with both? The first is insane. The second is false.

I think the first one is that people in this thread are not so much denying but rather excusing or minimising the CCP's repression, and that certainly seems to be the case. They're just running education camps for a million people teaching popular science, no doubt by Beilu Nai the Science Guy!

The second one is the question that I am interested in: how much of the repression is due to the CCP's official stance of atheism? What are the ramifications of the metaphysical implications of such a stance? I suggest that there is some impact, hinted by the People's Daily's use of the phrase "the struggle between atheism and theism", etc. I'm happy to have that discussion, but it hasn't gone further than "it's false!" I think we can do better than that.

What do you think the People's Daily's use of "the struggle between atheism and theism" signifies, when issued by the official mouthpiece of the CCP?

 

[Crossbow]

By the way? The contention that the opening post contains a straw man??

******* hilarious!

Your constant dodges and evasions do an excellent job of showing that belief in religion is both stupid and worthless.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I'm not the one mixing party members with people in general. I've only been talking about the CCP. For example:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/a...munist-party-reinforces-ban-superstition.html

China's ruling Communist party has tightened its ban on members believing in "feudal superstitions", state media said, as part of new regulations on discipline....

Superstitious practices, such as reliance on fortune telling and the traditional Chinese practice of feng shui, go against the party's core belief in Marxism, which claims to be founded on the scientific method...

The new party rules, which came into force on January 1, threaten members who "organise" superstitious activities with expulsion, while those who merely participate in them face warnings, Xinhua said Sunday.​

I don't think it unreasonable for an avowedly atheist organisation to expect its members to be atheist.

 

[dann]

China's ruling Communist party has tightened its ban on members believing in "feudal superstitions", state media said, as part of new regulations on discipline....

Superstitious practices, such as reliance on fortune telling and the traditional Chinese practice of feng shui, go against the party's core belief in Marxism, which claims to be founded on the scientific method...

The new party rules, which came into force on January 1, threaten members who "organise" superstitious activities with expulsion, while those who merely participate in them face warnings, Xinhua said Sunday.​

But for some reason, the "party's core belief in Marxism" has nothing whatsoever to do with Marx, as I've pointed out a couple of times in this thread. When Marx criticized religion, he pointed out that it was a belief based on nothing but wishful thinking by people who need of this kind of 'opium' because their actual living conditions, to put it mildly, leave much to be desired. I haven't seen any indications that he would want to abolish religion by banning it - very much unlike the Chinese (allegedly) Communist Party.

 

[The Big Dog]

I don't think it unreasonable for an avowedly atheist organisation to expect its members to be atheist.

Excellent! Now you can see why I have explained from post one in this thread that anti-religious crackdowns on religious in China are committed by an avowedly atheist organization!

fantastic.

 

[dann]

I don't think it unreasonable for an avowedly atheist organisation to expect its members to be atheist.

Is that what it is? "an avowedly atheist organisation"?

 

[The Big Dog]

Is that what it is? "an avowedly atheist organisation"?

as well as unyielding marxist atheists.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Excellent! Now you can see why I have explained from post one in this thread that anti-religious crackdowns on religious in China are committed by an avowedly atheist organization!

fantastic.

But you have not explained why atheism is the cause of that, which is especially strange given the amount of evidence, including some posted by you yourself, showing that it is for reasons of totalitarian control instead.
Do all atheist organisations and governments crack down on religions?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Is that what it is? "an avowedly atheist organisation"?

Obviously. Have you seriously not noticed the phrase "unyielding Marxist atheists" being used in this thread? Where do you think that comes from?

 

[Crossbow]

Excellent! Now you can see why I have explained from post one in this thread that anti-religious crackdowns on religious in China are committed by an avowedly atheist organization!

fantastic.

Actually, your very first posting in this thread said something quite different.

Specifically:

State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...d68366-b4af-11e8-ae4f-2c1439c96d79_story.html



Appalling.

 

[The Big Dog]

But you have not explained why atheism is the cause of that, which is especially strange given the amount of evidence, including some posted by you yourself, showing that it is for reasons of totalitarian control instead.

Actually, I have repeatedly shown evidence that atheism is the cause of that, and it is beyond specious and frivolous at this point to assert that totalitarian control is the sole cause, rather than a concurrent cause, or as I have already explained, totalitarian control provides the power that allows unyielding marxist atheists to persecute that which they are against, religious believers.

I have already explained that totalitarian control and atheism equal religious suppression, oppression, and frequently genocide.

These have been explained repeatedly.