Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

The Big Dog said:
Of course, outrage at the human rights abuses in China.

It never occurred to me that the outrage would be directed at me for having the temerity to point out that the abuses were rooted in atheism, so much outrage that our intrepid atheists would defend the abuses.

It only became a dream threads when the posts opposing mine manage only to reinforce my points
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This is a lie, as you well know. It’s not very Christian to lie with impunity, is it?
 
The Big Dog said:
It never occurred to me that the outrage would be directed at me for having the temerity to point out that the abuses were rooted in atheism
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That's like claiming that the sexual abuse of children by Catholic Priests is rooted in Christianity. Your juvenile need to reduce a complex totalitarian system to "Durr! Atheist bad!" ignores a vast political, religious and historical context.

The Chinese government would be doing something similar to what they're doing now if it was a Conservative Christian theocracy instead of an atheist government. In this discussion and others you have been given multiple examples of Christian theocracies doing pretty much what China is doing now. Even NAZI Germany did what China is doing now, systematically oppress religious groups that were not under government control while allowing government controlled churches to operate in the open.
 
halleyscomet said:
Did anyone ever say he was Christian?
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I don't think so. I think he may believe in the existence of Jesus, but he doesn't follow or practice the teachings.

He's just here to make people angry instead of doing unto others as you would have others do unto you.
 
The Big Dog said:
Of course, outrage at the human rights abuses in China.
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What wrongs do you think those particular Chinese Christians have done, to have incurred God's wrath in the form of persecution by their divinely appointed government?

Or do you not believe the doctrine stated in Romans 13:1-5? In which case, why did you quote it?
 
Myriad said:
What wrongs do you think those particular Chinese Christians have done, to have incurred God's wrath in the form of persecution by their divinely appointed government?

Or do you not believe the doctrine stated in Romans 13:1-5? In which case, why did you quote it?
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To curb stomp another fraudulent argument, of course, from another anti-Christian who used it to justify the egregious human rights abuses in China.
 
lionking said:
This is a lie, as you well know. It’s not very Christian to lie with impunity, is it?
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Actually, we have any number of apologists defending it in this thread, whether it be by arguing that it is inconsequential by saying that a post on the internet is "more appalling," or explaining the "logic" behind it, or saying that they were only attacking dissident groups, or by saying that the Chinese were correct to do so because "theocracy, etc" or desperately trying to derail the issue through the most spectacular series of whataboutism that should embarrass a junior high logic class, or by attacking the messenger.

Say... that last one kinda rings a bell. I get that it is so much easier to attack The Big Dog than stand up to Chinese human rights abuses, but fortunately some of us are made of sterner stuff.
 
The Big Dog said:
Actually, we have any number of apologists defending it in this thread, whether it be by arguing that it is inconsequential by saying that a post on the internet is "more appalling," or explaining the "logic" behind it, or saying that they were only attacking dissident groups, or by saying that the Chinese were correct to do so because "theocracy, etc" or desperately trying to derail the issue through the most spectacular series of whataboutism that should embarrass a junior high logic class, or by attacking the messenger.

Say... that last one kinda rings a bell. I get that it is so much easier to attack The Big Dog than stand up to Chinese human rights abuses, but fortunately some of us are made of sterner stuff.
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Fascinating.

To you, trying to understand == apologetic.

Sad, but fascinating.
 
halleyscomet said:
Fascinating.

To you, trying to understand == apologetic.

Sad, but fascinating.
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Ya see folks, trying to "understand" egregious human rights abuses.

You see, maybe there are two sides to putting a million Muslims in re-education camps.
 
Myriad said:
What wrongs do you think those particular Chinese Christians have done, to have incurred God's wrath in the form of persecution by their divinely appointed government?

Or do you not believe the doctrine stated in Romans 13:1-5? In which case, why did you quote it?
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You're saying a "christian" quoted a bible verse without understanding it?!
 
Myriad said:
What wrongs do you think those particular Chinese Christians have done, to have incurred God's wrath in the form of persecution by their divinely appointed government?

Or do you not believe the doctrine stated in Romans 13:1-5? In which case, why did you quote it?
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The article makes it very clear and TBD works hard to ignore it. The crackdowns are on religious institutions that are not submitting themselves to government scrutiny. They even interview the pastor of one church whose building was raided and he admits that he was still negotiating with the government about compliance with their oversight. The Churches, Synagogues and Temples OBEYING Romans 13:1-5 are apparently unscathed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...d68366-b4af-11e8-ae4f-2c1439c96d79_story.html
The pastor, who asked not to be identified by name to avoid repercussions from authorities, said several people entered the church just as it opened its doors at 5 a.m. and began removing items.

He said the church had been in discussions with local authorities who demanded it “reform” itself, but no agreement had been reached or official documents released.

Chinese law requires religious believers to worship only in congregations registered with the authorities, but many millions belong to so-called underground or house churches that defy government restrictions.
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A comparison to NAZI German is appropriate, given it's unification of Protestant churches and persecution of Catholic ones. This is functionally the model China is using. Why TBD is ignoring the more sinister aspects of state controlled religion to obsess over the tactics used to force the religious into the state-approved sects is beyond me. It would be like claming Germany oppressed ALL Christians because they persecuted the Catholics.

https://www.facinghistory.org/holoc.../chapter-5/protestant-churches-and-nazi-state
The Nazi government ushered in key changes to the Protestant churches in Germany. First, the Nazi leadership supported the German Christian movement, a group of Protestants who wanted to combine Christianity and National Socialism into a movement “that would exclude all those deemed impure and embrace all ‘true Germans’ in a spiritual homeland for the Third Reich.” Second, the Nazi leadership urged Protestants to unite all regional churches into a national church under the centralized leadership of Ludwig Müller, a well-known pastor and Nazi Party member, who was appointed as Reich bishop. Many German Protestants embraced these changes. By supporting the German Christian movement and Müller, they could continue to practice their faith and at the same time show support for Hitler. In a national vote by Protestants taken in July 1933, the German Christians were supported by two-thirds of voters, and Müller won the national election to lead them.
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https://www.theologycorner.net/apocalypseandanalysis/2018/1/3/what-was-a-nazi-church-service-like
We can easily forget how deeply Christian Nazi Germany was. As historian Doris L. Bergen puts it, “Christianity permeated Nazi society” (9).

Although Hitler was not very pious, the 97% of Germans who identified as Christian mostly convinced themselves that he was.

Most Protestant Christians at the time were ecstatic at the creation of a newly Nazified world. And they went to church.

This new world demanded a renewed church with reinvented liturgies. In the midst of a fierce struggle for control of the churches, the pro-Nazi “German Christian” faction preached sermons, edited Bibles, revised hymn-books, altered liturgies, and changed the church calendar.

Sometimes they made drastic changes. At the same time, they inherited a form of Christianity that offered little opposition to Nazism.
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TBD is completely missing the real story. Religious faith in China isn't being shut down. It's being co-opted and corrupted for governmental ends. He's focused on one aspect of a larger horror. This serves only to aid China in its endeavors. All the Chinese government has to do is point to the churches and temples it allows to operate and claim they're innocent of any wrongdoing. TBD is functionally creating a straw man the Chinese government can easily knock down.

Edited by jsfisher: 
Edited in several places to correct other member's abbreviated user name. By the way, it would be a bad idea to continue to mis-type the user name.
 
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halleyscomet said:
TBD is completely missing the real story. Religious faith in China isn't being shut down. It's being co-opted and corrupted for governmental ends. He's focused on one aspect of a larger horror. This serves only to aid China in its endeavors. All the Chinese government has to do is point to the churches and temples it allows to operate and claim they're innocent of any wrongdoing. TBD is functionally creating a straw man the Chinese government can easily knock down.
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Edited by jsfisher: 
Edited to match moderated post.


falls over.

Who honestly thinks that "All the Chinese government has to do is point to the churches and temples it allows to operate and claim they're innocent of any wrongdoing" is a meritorious argument?

Sure we destroyed a bunch of Churches, burned bibles have a nightmare history of religious repression, are socializing and corrupting religion, and put a million Muslims is camps, but we are innocent of wrongdoing!

Heck of an argument!

Oy vey...

/by the way, it is TBD... can't even get that right?
 
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The Big Dog said:
To curb stomp another fraudulent argument, of course, from another anti-Christian who used it to justify the egregious human rights abuses in China.
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By posting a passage that says the people should obey their God-appointed government? Which these particular groups are apparently not?
 
The Big Dog said:
Say... that last one kinda rings a bell. I get that it is so much easier to attack The Big Dog than stand up to Chinese human rights abuses, but fortunately some of us are made of sterner stuff.
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You're standing up to the Chinese government? What form does this take?
 
sylvan8798 said:
By posting a passage that says the people should obey their God-appointed government? Which these particular groups are apparently not?
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Actually, that was posted to destroy your silly "theocracy" justification for the ongoing human rights abuses, a claim that we note was not only appalling in its attempt to justify the abuses but equally appalling in that the proponent clearly made it up out of whole cloth.

These particular million Muslims are not obeying their government, stick them in a camp!
 
The Big Dog said:
falls over.

Who honestly thinks that "All the Chinese government has to do is point to the churches and temples it allows to operate and claim they're innocent of any wrongdoing" is a meritorious argument?

Sure we destroyed a bunch of Churches, burned bibles have a nightmare history of religious repression, are socializing and corrupting religion, and put a million Muslims is camps, but we are innocent of wrongdoing!
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It helps that they have so many useful idiots creating a false narrative that they're oppressing ALL religions. They don't need to convince anyone that the oppression that's happening is fake news. All they have to do is get any opposition to mount a defense against the wrong horror.

Fighting against the systematic oppression of entire religions requires a very different ground game and international strategy than fighting against forcing the religious into government controlled denominations. The fact that you don't understand this is part of what makes you so useful to China in this matter.
 
The Big Dog said:
Actually, that was posted to destroy your silly "theocracy" justification for the ongoing human rights abuses, a claim that we note was not only appalling in its attempt to justify the abuses but equally appalling in that the proponent clearly made it up out of whole cloth.

These particular million Muslims are not obeying their government, stick them in a camp!
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