Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
All are welcome, clothing optional
Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful
- Thread starter The Big Dog
- Start date
All are welcome, clothing optional
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
Should I show up with an open mind and a warm heart?
Because I'll have to get them out of the basement freezer if I bring them...
Because I'll have to get them out of the basement freezer if I bring them...
Thor 2
Philosopher
Oh wow!
Now I am being compared to The Big Dog .... have you no mercy?And then you floor me with the argument that the guys that flew planes into buildings weren't motivated by their faith, because these other guys of the same faith aren't flying planes into buildings .... are they?
"Not motivated by the writings of the Quran" - you tell us.
But, but, but, I say - "Look at this and that stuff written in the Quran?"
You, (fingers in ears), "Nothing to do with the Quran, nothing to do with the Quran, nothing to do with the Quran, ........."
You may be struggling to understand why those guys were motivated to fly planes into buildings, but most others have no difficulty with it.
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In the context, Aridas's post about your technique was much more relevant.
No, you're jumping to conclusions. I had nightmares, but they weren't about her, so the argument you built upon that interpretation falls flat from the very beginning.
Now, I never described my nightmares to you, so
1) Having nightmares about something doesn't mean that you fear that something when you are awake.
2) The nightmares I had were sometimes about things I didn't fear at all when awake, sometimes about things that I would fear when awake and sometimes about things that don't exist and never existed in reality at all, which I was completely aware of when awake.
You seem to forget that Squeegee didn't write about his grandfather dreaming of a vengeful God, but the idea that you really got me this time seems to turn you on so much that you aren't really interested in what I wrote. Your strawman fantasies are so superior to reality.
Obviously not. Apart from the fact that the dreams weren't about my mother, I've had many dreams about non-existent things and persons, and those dreams have never made me think that they were real or made me fear non-existent things.
It was never up to me to allow Squeegee's grandfather anything. However, I noticed that you suddenly stopped your dream analysis when you got back to the theme of this part of the discussion: Squeegee's grandfather. Are you implying that he was only terrified of God's revenge in his sleep? If that is what Squeegee said, then you'll have to show where.
Oh wow!
And then you floor me with the argument that the guys that flew planes into buildings weren't motivated by their faith, because these other guys of the same faith aren't flying planes into buildings .... are they?
"Not motivated by the writings of the Quran" - you tell us.
But, but, but, I say - "Look at this and that stuff written in the Quran?"
You, (fingers in ears), "Nothing to do with the Quran, nothing to do with the Quran, nothing to do with the Quran, ........."
You may be struggling to understand why those guys were motivated to fly planes into buildings, but most others have no difficulty with it.
I don't think that this is the first time I've compared you with TBD, but it may be the first time you noticed.
And, no, I'm not struggling th understand the motivations of the 9/11 hijackers, but unlike you, I don't have the Biblical all-encompassing answer: Allah told them - by means of the Quran, which, of course, is why it's your favourite example of the atrocities of religion. In this way, you don't have to consider why 1.8 billion Muslims wouldn't dream of flying planes into buildings.
I know that it would never occur to you that the way that people are motivated to do all kinds of things is sometimes circumspect and complicated. At least it would never occur to you when you have decided that it was all about religion and nothing but religion.
And again, this way of one-dimensional thinking is one that you have in common with TBD:
T2: People fly planes into buildings because they are Muslims. There can be no other reason for them to do so.
TBD: Xi persecutes believers because he's an atheist. There can be no other reason for him to do so.
Congratulations! This thread could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship between the two of you!
I'm sorry, Squeegee, but what you described what not "a tiny amount of doubt":
"the one thing he was terrified of was that God was angry with him for abandoning his faith."
A tiny amount of doubt would be something that you would begin to describe with the words: "It's probably nothing, but recently I've ..."
Now you've moved on to something completely different: phobias! I'm sorry, but again it doesn't really correspond to your highlighted sentence above, but let's hear more about this: Did your grandfather break out in a sweat if he saw a depiction of God or if somebody mentioned God?
And even if you want to rationalize his fear of God by referring to arachnophobes, I will still point out to you that spiders are real, however rare lethal spider bites may be. God isn't. And that's the reason why the wrath of God is not just "exceedingly unlikely," it's non-existent.
Irrational fears are a thing, being afraid of something that is "exceedingly unlikely" is also a thing, so I guess that what you are trying to tell us is that your grandfather was an agnostic and not an atheist ...
Thor 2
Philosopher
So you continue with this personal attack because that is really all you have available now.
And you somehow manage to glean from my writings that:
"it would never occur to you that the way that people are motivated to do all kinds of things is sometimes circumspect and complicated."
Wow! You managed to see all that from my sparse scribblings.
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
Words matter, ideas matter, social acceptance matters, the peanut gallery is real, as is the bully pulpit. Humanity is one step out of the cave, and strongmen attract, as do simple answers.
When an ideology, religious or political, take your pick, either directly provides, or is used to provide, mental shortcuts and the rationale for dehumanizing and eventually dismissing others, you get a level of violence as a result. When the repetition of those memes reinforces them in times and places, the ideas beget greater levels of violence, often war. That any given behavior is not universal is explained by myriad other factors, both individual and structural.
What is common is that authority is taken on the surface as historically inevitable, scientifically imperative (oxymoron), divinely ordained, or a gift from space aliens, but always underneath as stemming from an absolute, unquestionable higher authority. When this authority is conferred upon select individuals and groups, look out. Because we all confer so much weight to being right as the sole justification for action, "truth" is often deadly. This should be no surprise to anyone, and is otherwise known as: history.
In short, the connection between ideas and actions is quite substantially real. Meaning that ideas do matter.
And, returning to the thread topic, this also explains how there can be little source for the dehumanization of others for failing to live up to some form of standard or rule book in the case of atheists. When an atheist might speak up, and duly so, it is in the face of the many wild claims and violent behaviors of those who do follow some holy creed of one sort or another, to say, "to hell with the lot of you."
When an ideology, religious or political, take your pick, either directly provides, or is used to provide, mental shortcuts and the rationale for dehumanizing and eventually dismissing others, you get a level of violence as a result. When the repetition of those memes reinforces them in times and places, the ideas beget greater levels of violence, often war. That any given behavior is not universal is explained by myriad other factors, both individual and structural.
What is common is that authority is taken on the surface as historically inevitable, scientifically imperative (oxymoron), divinely ordained, or a gift from space aliens, but always underneath as stemming from an absolute, unquestionable higher authority. When this authority is conferred upon select individuals and groups, look out. Because we all confer so much weight to being right as the sole justification for action, "truth" is often deadly. This should be no surprise to anyone, and is otherwise known as: history.
In short, the connection between ideas and actions is quite substantially real. Meaning that ideas do matter.
And, returning to the thread topic, this also explains how there can be little source for the dehumanization of others for failing to live up to some form of standard or rule book in the case of atheists. When an atheist might speak up, and duly so, it is in the face of the many wild claims and violent behaviors of those who do follow some holy creed of one sort or another, to say, "to hell with the lot of you."
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wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
No. Even if your nightmares weren't about your mother and you just brought her up for no reason, you still had nightmares. Unless your nightmares were completely unique, they were not real.
Nightmares, by definition, are frightening. You admit to having them about things that don't exist and never existed at all. Therefore, you were terrified about things that don't exist. That you woke up and the fear went away did not make the fear any less of a fear. This has happened to you, but you claim it cannot have happened to Squeegee's grandfather. Interesting.
Of course it is not up to you to allow Squeegee's grandfather anything. That's why it is so preposterous that you feel you have the authority to proclaim his belief system based on an incomplete anecdote.
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
I suddenly realized I have other plans that day. Whatever day it was.
October 13th or A full blue blood moon while Sagittarius is in the house of Orion while orbiting Neptune, For maximum summoning of evil.
How evil? We plan on replacing every plate of chocolate cookies kids put out for Santa this year with oatmeal raisin.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
I feel like in all this bickering amongst ourselves we're losing sight of the real picture, which is that The Big Dog lies about the motivations of totalitarian governments.
The Big Dog
Unregistered
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2007
- Messages
- 29,742
Oh man....
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
He's lying? This my shocked face: :|
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
I KNOW RIGHT? It's hard to believe, but...
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
To repeat, then, because you completely failed to address it, many of the definitions make it perfectly clear that picking and choosing does not need to be whimsical. Picking and choosing can be done whimsically, of course. There was never any argument against that. The counterargument was that it does not need to be done whimsically and, in fact, it clearly wasn't being used in that way at the place in question. That's the crux of the matter. You're demanding that it needs to be whimsical and, when presented with evidence that it does not need to be such, you're asking me to restrict the allowed evidence to only the information that confirms that it can be used like that and throw out the evidence that it does not need to be? Trying to dodge this fact continues to demonstrate that you're not interested in discussing the matter honestly.
And had you read for content, I never denied that it can be used in that way. That was also never actually in question. Your logic is akin to demanding that "car" is only allowed to refer to a Model T Ford because "car" can refer to a Model T Ford.
AHAHAHAHAHA! That's a fine example of irony, right there. You're pointedly denying how a term was actually clearly used in favor of what you are trying to claim is standard use, after all.
No. That's not what I claimed repeatedly, had you been paying attention. You fail, yet again.
If only that flaw was in what I actually said, you might maybe have a point. You've failed at your attempt at reading comprehension and you want to poke at me for things that I didn't actually say. Care to try again?
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Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Indeed, I didn't directly take Squeegee at his word. What I actually did was address a general scenario that would match how Squeegee's story was being described.
In observed manifestation, what I described can be largely indistinguishable. The more general fear of the unknown and death is the actual underlying issue in play, with the worries triggering old, deep emotional triggers that then become a focal point that directs how the more general fear manifests. It is a fear of God, but doesn't require one to actually still believe in any god in any meaningful or rational fashion.
That is a possible alternative. I'm not going to claim special knowledge of Squeegee's grandfather, regardless.
ETA:
Hmm? I was under the impression that that's been covered ad nauseum, even in the limited part of the thread that I've been participating.
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If I understand you correctly, it would then be akin to a phobia, comparable to a dying cured arachnophobe whose fear of death would trigger the old fear of spiders. I can see how that might be possible, but again - based on Squeegee's description only - I don't think it sounds very likely.
Anyway, I'll never know, and Squeegee can just ignore what I wrote.
Neither am I.