Assaulting Personal Liberty in San Francisco

[Andrew Wiggin]

I'd have trouble articulating exactly why, but I don't consider it appropriate to be nude in public.

If you have trouble articulating exactly why, that's a pretty good sign that you're just repeating something you were told, or part of your acculturation. I suggest that it's worth the effort to examine exactly why you feel as you feel, and to discard the bits that turn out to be made up. I do not think you'll find any evidence for nudity being inherently wrong other than other folks who say nudity is wrong, for exactly the same reasons you do; someone told you that once, and you believed it. Sort of a cultural virus that makes people wear pants.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

"No shirt, no shoes , no service." As just about every buisness has this sign, and i don't see police frantically handing out fines by the dozen, safe to assume its true.

I have yet to see a sign that says 'no pants, no service'.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I ass ume personal odors are also stopped up somewhat by a pair of jeans in the way so you don't suck all the gas that might be expelled...

Hold a piece of denim up to your face, and blow some air through it. It doesn't do much to stop air flow. It won't do anything meaningful to stop the flow of flatus. (if it did, people would be walking around with their pants ballooned out from the trapped farts. I don't see that. Do you?)

Maybe we should mandate nonporous rubber pants for everyone...

 

[sadhatter]

Not if they sit on a towel, at least.



It seems odd that you're saying "Won't someone please think of the children", while simultaneously worrying that that's exactly what someone might do.

The problem being, that the if in the sentence is a big if.

Who provides said towel? What about the guy who doesn't want to use one and starts a campaign because having to sit on a towel is degrading? If the towel is place-provided, what about the time it doesn't get washed right and someone catches something? What about the folks that just don't wash their home brought towel, and it gets just as , if not more gross than their butt?

Doesn't it seem much more logical to simply keep the system of separating butts from the general public we already have instead of instituting a whole new batch of problems to cater to a tiny segment of the population that already has plenty of places to be as nude as they want to be?

 

[sarge]

If you have trouble articulating exactly why, that's a pretty good sign that you're just repeating something you were told, or part of your acculturation. I suggest that it's worth the effort to examine exactly why you feel as you feel, and to discard the bits that turn out to be made up. I do not think you'll find any evidence for nudity being inherently wrong other than other folks who say nudity is wrong, for exactly the same reasons you do; someone told you that once, and you believed it. Sort of a cultural virus that makes people wear pants.

It is possible to cause harm by violating beliefs that are not grounded in logic. A child, taught to believe that public nudity is wrong, might actually suffer harm by being exposed to nekkid people - at least until the newness of it wears off.

So long as our society generally favors clothing in public, I'm okay with laws that mandate clothing in public, even while I recognize that there is nothing inately wrong with nudity.

 

[sadhatter]

I have yet to see a sign that says 'no pants, no service'.

If i say you cannot punch me in the face, do you feel you can then kick me in the nuts?

The fact it doesn't say no pants is no more telling than the fact that there is a lot of " no fighting" signs in the bar, but it doesn't also say " No slap fighting. No shot for a shot. No Knife Fighting. No Duels. No Wrestling matches. No Judo Demonstrations. Etc." it is assumed your person of average intelligence will understand that it applies to all like situations.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

It is possible to cause harm by violating beliefs that are not grounded in logic.

Here is the point where you and I must agree to disagree, as what you just said is the height of nonsense from my perspective. If you believed that water was poisonous, and I mixed some into your vodka, would you die?

I think you're mistaking harm and offense, and I believe you and I both have the right to choose our reaction to what we see and experience. Just because someone chooses, based on their culture, to react as if harmed when they see nudity does not mean harm occurred, just that that person is emoting histrionics, in hopes of making the people around them conform with their personal cultural expectations.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

If i say you cannot punch me in the face, do you feel you can then kick me in the nuts?

Hypothetically, if I expressed an intent to hit you and you said 'don't punch me in the face' then I think that would be a reasonable interpretation. It helps to be specific, and context matters. I WOULD assume that if you specifically asked me to put a shirt on while I was unclothed, that you meant 'put a shirt on', not 'I find your nudity offensive and expect you to be fully clothed before entering my business establishment'.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Do you really think " No Shirt, No shoes, No service. ", implies " No Pants , No Problem. ", or are you just being an ass ?

 

[citizenzen]

"No shirt, no shoes , no service."

Just yesterday I took note of a sign in a local market that read, "Footwear Required".

I cannot for life of me understand why bare feet are a problem.

Does anybody know?

Or is this just a social convention devoid of any rational basis?

 

[fuelair]

What's the relevance of the hypothetical "perv" being homeless?

More spare time to wander around flashing I would guess. Though it would be amusing to train the young lady to give the perv a withering look followed by "I don't DO miniatures!" OOOoooorr: "Do you have that in a medium or large?" Ooooooorrr: (to a friend with her): Oh look at the teeny-weeny!" Perp replies "Hey girl that's my xxxxx!" Girl responds: "It can't be - I've seen xxxxs before and that's definitly a teeny weeny!!!"

 

[Hokulele]

Just yesterday I took note of a sign in a local market that read, "Footwear Required".

I cannot for life of me understand why bare feet are a problem.

Does anybody know?

Or is this just a social convention devoid of any rational basis?

In grocery stores and the like, glass jars can be knocked off of shelves, and they do not want to be held liable if someone gets injured by stepping on the resulting mess.

 

[fuelair]

Jeez, just think of the sound of sweaty buns departing from the plastic.

And think of the children.

I ass ume personal odors are also stopped up somewhat by a pair of jeans in the way so you don't suck all the gas that might be expelled...

The jeans just filter out the solids and part of the liquid. The gas just blows on out!!

 

[Checkmite]

Hypothetically, if I expressed an intent to hit you and you said 'don't punch me in the face' then I think that would be a reasonable interpretation. It helps to be specific, and context matters. I WOULD assume that if you specifically asked me to put a shirt on while I was unclothed, that you meant 'put a shirt on', not 'I find your nudity offensive and expect you to be fully clothed before entering my business establishment'.

That's because you deliberately choose to feign ignorance of the cultural customs you learned by growing up in western society. Of course you are in reality perfectly aware that the "No shirt, no shoes" sign doesn't mention pants not because entering a store without pants is okay, but because it is presumed that those walking without pants will have been arrested before getting to the store.

Just so you know, the signs on the door that say "Manager cannot open safe" and "No more than $50 in registers at all times" is not a tacit invitation to come in and steal less-secure non-money items.

 

[Hokulele]

That's because you deliberately choose to feign ignorance of the cultural customs you learned by growing up in western society. Of course you are in reality perfectly aware that the "No shirt, no shoes" sign doesn't mention pants not because entering a store without pants is okay, but because it is presumed that those walking without pants will have been arrested before getting to the store.

Just so you know, the signs on the door that say "Manager cannot open safe" and "No more than $50 in registers at all times" is not a tacit invitation to come in and steal less-secure non-money items.

I walk into stores not wearing pants rather frequently, and they have yet to complain.

 

[Checkmite]

Come on, you know what I mean. Although this is another good example of why they don't bother specifying 'pants'.

 

[Hokulele]

Come on, you know what I mean. Although this is another good example of why they don't bother specifying 'pants'.

Yeah, I just couldn't resist that set up.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

That's because you deliberately choose to feign ignorance of the cultural customs you learned by growing up in western society. Of course you are in reality perfectly aware that the "No shirt, no shoes" sign doesn't mention pants not because entering a store without pants is okay, but because it is presumed that those walking without pants will have been arrested before getting to the store.

Just so you know, the signs on the door that say "Manager cannot open safe" and "No more than $50 in registers at all times" is not a tacit invitation to come in and steal less-secure non-money items.

You're making an assumption about my birth culture, and it happens to be incorrect. I've said many times before, I grew up on a commune full of hippies, where nudity was completely unremarkable. I wear clothing to spare the feelings of folks who are prudish, or when I need more armour than my skin gives. I'm not ignorant of your cultural customs, but by growing up outside of them I do recognize that they have a basis in culture, not fact. There is no 'we do this because' defense here except for 'we do this because we've always done it', and that's no defense at all, especially when extended to 'doing it differently is wrong'. I'm also not trying to be an ass; I just believe that thinking beings should be able to examine themselves and know what aspects of their behavior are based on serving a need, and which are based on cultural conservatism. Nudity taboo is cultural conservatism and cultural elitism. Nothing makes your culture better than anyone else's culture except that it's yours, and human nature being what it is, what your tribe does is right and what the other tribes do is wrong.

 

[sadhatter]

Hypothetically, if I expressed an intent to hit you and you said 'don't punch me in the face' then I think that would be a reasonable interpretation. It helps to be specific, and context matters. I WOULD assume that if you specifically asked me to put a shirt on while I was unclothed, that you meant 'put a shirt on', not 'I find your nudity offensive and expect you to be fully clothed before entering my business establishment'.

Well, i would suggest a liberal dose of common sense then.

 

[sadhatter]

Just yesterday I took note of a sign in a local market that read, "Footwear Required".

I cannot for life of me understand why bare feet are a problem.

Does anybody know?

Or is this just a social convention devoid of any rational basis?

Are you serious?

Broken glass, general spills, easier to slip, and this isn't even getting to places that generally stock dangerous goods like a hardware store.