Assaulting Personal Liberty in San Francisco

[Nosi]

My only issue with nudists is that the majority of them look like me; over wieght and well below the minimum acceptable aesthetic level that is safe for human consumption.

I can only be nude around cattle and landfills.

I put a blindfold on the shower head.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

If you failed to grasp the notions, you should have asked before falsly attributing to me things that I clearly did not say.



1. I said "It is possible to cause harm by violating beliefs that are not grounded in logic." You equated this with "offense equals harm". The two statements are not equal. Indeed, they are not similar. It is possible to be offended without being harmed, and no one is guaranteed freedom from offense. It remains true that a person may suffer real, measurable psychological harm without suffering obvious physical harm.

2. In support of your interpretation of " contradicting my beliefs equals harming me, even if my beliefs are wrong", you quoted my "It is possible to cause psychological harm to someone by running afoul of deeply held beliefs, even if the beliefs themselves are not logical." Again, your interpretation is not supported by my statement. That it is possible for something offensive to cause harm does not mean that everything offensive will cause harm, or even that most things offensive are likely to cause harm.

3. And the most assinine - "giving offense by being nude comparable to giving offense by raping a child'. I gave an example of a situation where a victim may be harmed psychologically without having suffered obvious physical harm. I made no assertion that rape is equal to seeing someone naked.

You have resorted to intentionally mistating my arguments. You oppose my argument, but lack an ability to articulate why you do. You are feeling "truthy" about your stance on public nudity.

I was close enough in my interpretation that you recognized your own arguments. You just didn't like my summary. I notice you haven't given anything but bare assertions. Maybe you should share with the class why you think seeing nudity is harmful, other than just asserting that it is, and maybe link to some studies that show that having your beliefs challenged harms you?

By the way, if you carefully parse out Rick Santorum's infamous speech, the one that got Dan Savage on his case and got the word santorum redefined, he never quite says being gay is like having sex with a dog. He just includes having sex with a dog in the analogy, as a way of poisoning the well, and as part of a slippery slope fallacy. You used raping a child in an analogy that was supposed to explain why nudity is bad. I accept that it isn't a direct 'nudity equals pedophilic rape' correlation, but why use the analogy if you didn't want to get something vile onto the page and use it in a comparison? You're acting as if I'm destroying my credibility by calling you out on it, but from my end I'd say the same. Bye bye now.

 

[elgarak]

My only objection to public nudity is that the people you encounter nude are never the people you'd wish to see nude.

I know people that I do not like to see clothed.

I think your statement (which always comes up when nudism is mentioned) is one of the most asinine statements ever.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

So then that whole "when I see a sign at a store that says you must wear a shirt and shoes, I can't help but assume they're only mean a shirt and shoes and not any other clothing" line was deliberate BS for pretty much its own sake? If you're "not ignorant" of our cultural customs, why do you argue as if you want to be seen that way?

Believe me, I do the 'when in rome' with the best of them. I'm allergic to handcuffs.

There's also nothing inherently wrong with a culture that eschews nudism. Insisting there is, also counts as "cultural elitism".

The problem I have with this is that the mores of your culture are backed with force. It's easy to study how people live. It's damn hard to answer the question 'how should people live?'. I propose that a set of rules for how to live that takes armed men to enforce is less ethical than a set of rules for life that requires no enforcement. If you'd walked into the farm where I grew up wearing a three piece suit, no one would have batted an eye or told you to take it off, although I figure there would be a few folks who would have made themselves scarce just in case you were from the DEA. As long as you were cool with us, we'd be cool with you. On the other hand, if I was out walking wearing nothing but what 'god' gave me in your neigborhood, I bet you'd have me arrested.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I know people that I do not like to see clothed.

I think your statement (which always comes up when nudism is mentioned) is one of the most asinine statements ever.

This...

From experience, once you've seen enough nudity, nudity stops being sexual and people are just people. The statement 'I don't want to see that person naked' reads as 'if I see that person naked I'll visualize them in a sexual context and they aren't someone I'd want to have sex with'. Nudity=/=sex.

 

[sarge]

I was close enough in my interpretation that you recognized your own arguments. You just didn't like my summary. I notice you haven't given anything but bare assertions. Maybe you should share with the class why you think seeing nudity is harmful, other than just asserting that it is, and maybe link to some studies that show that having your beliefs challenged harms you?

By the way, if you carefully parse out Rick Santorum's infamous speech, the one that got Dan Savage on his case and got the word santorum redefined, he never quite says being gay is like having sex with a dog. He just includes having sex with a dog in the analogy, as a way of poisoning the well, and as part of a slippery slope fallacy. You used raping a child in an analogy that was supposed to explain why nudity is bad. I accept that it isn't a direct 'nudity equals pedophilic rape' correlation, but why use the analogy if you didn't want to get something vile onto the page and use it in a comparison? You're acting as if I'm destroying my credibility by calling you out on it, but from my end I'd say the same. Bye bye now.

So you failed to understand, got an explanation, decided that the explanation contradicts your failed understanding, and discarded the explanation.

Yep - bye bye.

 

[Craig4]

This...

From experience, once you've seen enough nudity, nudity stops being sexual and people are just people. The statement 'I don't want to see that person naked' reads as 'if I see that person naked I'll visualize them in a sexual context and they aren't someone I'd want to have sex with'. Nudity=/=sex.

I don't consider myself a nudist but I live in Germany and do nude saunas and go nude swimming. Let me just assure everyone that the vast majority of people who do this aren't even remotely interested in whether or not anyone else is enjoying the experience of seeing them without their clothes on.

 

[Checkmite]

The problem I have with this is that the mores of your culture are backed with force.

I really must say that your insisting on defining your experience growing up as a different "culture" is too hyperbolic for me to take your argument seriously. I, for one, find it exceedingly difficult to believe that your parents kept you in such cult-like isolation in this place that you grew up without the slightest concept that there was a "world outside the walls" where you had to be clothed when you were about, and that when you left this place (at whatever stage of your life that occurred) suddenly finding yourself in a place where the people spoke the exact same language, listened to the exact same music, played the exact same games, and were otherwise the same as you in every way except for the fact that they were always dressed and perhaps did fewer drugs, was akin to experiencing a completely foreign culture. It was a lifestyle difference at greatest. And yes I know I "wasn't there"; but I feel pretty confident that my assessment is correct. I don't believe you had any trouble whatsoever "adapting" to always having to be clothed outside your house. The fact of the matter is, individuals (and indeed whole families) are able to visit naturist resorts on a regular basis and never require an "adjustment" period between their times of always having to be clothed and never having to be clothed.

And if your parents did keep you in the kind of aforementioned cult-like isolation that would have been necessary to create this "culture shock" - well, I don't see how you can fault "my culture" for that poor parenting decision.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

So you can't see how a different upbringing can result in a different perspective.

 

[Checkmite]

So you can't see how a different upbringing can result in a different perspective.

I assure you I most certainly can. But the difference seems to be to be a political one, not a cultural one.

 

[Nosi]

Nudists in Arizona do need to be careful, else they be bipedal lobsters.

 

[Babbylonian]

Nudists in Arizona do need to be careful, else they be bipedal lobsters.

At what SPF rating does sunblock count as clothing?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Per a conversation I had yesterday RE nudity and hygeine;

You're on an 18 hour bus ride to some happy fun place, say Cleveland Ohio, so you can interview for a job at the mill, one of the fun ones where someone, hopefully you, gets to stand in front of a machine all day pushing a button on cue. You have to share a seat with one of the following people. Both defecated an hour ago.

Travel buddy A; Not wearing any pants. Call it a religious preference or whatever. Wearing nothing but tattos and body paint in fact. He felt the call of nature, and copped a squat behind a bush outside the bus station. Didn't wipe, since the shrubbery was rather too spiky, but pulled his cheeks apart and let it fall free. Wants to tell you about his recent trip to Burning Man.

Travel buddy B; Wearing every bit of clothing he owns. Completely covered, except for his face. Street legal, in fact, anywhere in the world, barring laws against panhandling, loitering, etc. Didn't bother to remove any of his many layers as he **** himself. Wants to tell you what the voices said about the end times.

Choose wisely my friends; you're in the window seat, your travel buddy is blocking the aisle, and it's a long way to cleveland.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Nice story ....

 

[citizenzen]

You're on an 18 hour bus ride ... You have to share a seat with one of the following people. Both defecated an hour ago.

This reminds me of my bus trip from Salt Lake City to Tucson about 30 years ago. At a stopover in Las Vegas we picked up a rider. I was standing behind him in line and immediately noticed that he literally smelled like crap. His pants looked and smelled like he hadn't taken them off for a very, very long time. I pity the person who had to sit near him. Luckily, it wasn't me.

Pants can be just as nasty.

 

[Checkmite]

Per a conversation I had yesterday RE nudity and hygeine;

You're on an 18 hour bus ride to some happy fun place, say Cleveland Ohio, so you can interview for a job at the mill, one of the fun ones where someone, hopefully you, gets to stand in front of a machine all day pushing a button on cue. You have to share a seat with one of the following people. Both defecated an hour ago.

Come on, this is patently silly. How would either of these characters be allowed on the bus? I've seen clothed individuals with exceptional pungency pulled out of line at bus stations and asked to address their hygiene before boarding.

Besides, it's completely and unfairly lopsided, making the clothed guy awful in every aspect and the naked guy a burner!

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Come on, this is patently silly. How would either of these characters be allowed on the bus? I've seen clothed individuals with exceptional pungency pulled out of line at bus stations and asked to address their hygiene before boarding.

Besides, it's completely and unfairly lopsided, making the clothed guy awful in every aspect and the naked guy a burner!

It's only patently silly in the presence of the laws you're defending. I've been on a fair number of busses, and never ever seen someone refused for hygeine. No law against riding while stinky. The naked guy is a burner, because that's an example of the culture I grew up in, reborn. Or did you think burning man was a political party?

 

[Checkmite]

It's not a fair example. Although nudity is permitted, less than 10% of the people who attend Burning Man choose to go without clothing - and they all seem to have no trouble realizing that once the week is over it's time to get dressed again and go back into The World. They're not the type who make a point of going everywhere naked and indicting those who are made uncomfortable as unreasonable prudes. They realize there's a time and a place available where they can do their thing and they accept it.