As she champions Illegal Immigrants, is AOC a threat to National Security?

[Shalamar]

you guys are the ones obsessed with "brown people", all that was suggested was we dont need more potential covid havers here when California as an examples hospitals are already over taxed. If anything you guys are showing total disregard for the healthcare workers.

She is not advocating for more people to enter the country. I know this because I'm non partisan.

 

[BobTheCoward]

you guys are the ones obsessed with "brown people", all that was suggested was we dont need more potential covid havers here when California as an examples hospitals are already over taxed. If anything you guys are showing total disregard for the healthcare workers.

This was AOCs position when she complained about ICE bringing people into NYC.

 

[Steve]

USAian is not a word.

Is too!!!

 

[rockysmith76]

Is too!!!

urban dictionary doesn't count.

 

[Baylor]

Even if it is a net benefit for those citizens to provide it to illegal aliens? Cut off your nose to spite your face?

I hear this a lot. It has no basis in reality. It further incentivizes aliens to come to the US illegally. That in turn clogs up our already overcrowded emergency rooms. Public schools are nearly unusable and money keeps pouring in for ESL and Spanish language instruction - furthering the breaking down of social cohesion among pupils. And even if it were true, I wouldn't care about lolbertarians logic pretzels how illegal aliens "benefit" the country.

 

[Baylor]

First, I will acknowledge my bias and do my best to keep it in check as we discuss. Please call me out if I slip up: If Ocasio-Cortez is addressing some issue, it's probably to promote something to benefit workers and the more vulnerable in our society and something undesirable to corporations and wealthy folks. That's my political lean too, i.e., to err on the side of poor people compared to corporations. So that is the bias I will attempt to leave at the door. Please feel free to acknowledge your own.

I could not disagree more. AOC "promot[ing] something to benefit workers and the more vulnerable in our society," is "something [desirable] to corporations and wealthy folks." She further incentivizes illegal border crossing and overstaying visas. As these illegal aliens enter the work force it cheapens the price of labor while simultaneously increasing the price of housing - two things that "negatively effect the vulnerable in our society," quite massively I might add. The increased ethnic and linguistic fractionalization among workers makes it more difficult for labor to unionize. The US is increasingly becoming a country of worker ants, which is why nearly every "corporation" and its CEO shares your political leanings. If I were a pseudointellectual I'd say "cognitive dissonance!" but I'm not so I won't.

illegal aliens do pay taxes, are there any benefits for which they should be eligible, i.e., that they've pooled for themselves?

No

which resources do you mean? If we could identify the illegal aliens who have paid taxes using the ITIN, for which specific benefits in the stimulus package should they be ineligible?

All of them

not sure that's resolved. "The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."

I'm sure it is. That report grossly underestimated the number of illegal aliens in the country. And it's outdated anyway.


And newer reports show How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants along with the $30 billion dollar a year it costs to school children of illegal aliens.

That's a net benefit, not a cost. It also doesn't include the generalized benefits of doing jobs citizens aren't willing to do, keeping labor costs down, purchasing goods and services in our communities, etc. That's to not to argue that we don't have an illegal immigration problem in the US, but I am unconvinced that we're worse off economically in this country because of it.

Such BS. You've been gaslit, plain and simple. The idea that illegal aliens do jobs "Americans don't want" is laughable on its face. Americans will do it if adequately compensated. Circumventing hard-fought labor rights is not "a benefit."

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for rule 12

... based on my reading it seems that the stickiest widget here is the ITIN. Yes, there are illegal aliens who pay taxes using an ITIN, but there are also a lot of legal folks and US citizens using ITINs. If we deny stimulus benefits to folks with ITINs just so we can make sure that illegal aliens don't benefit, we'll also be denying those benefits to taxpayers – including US citizens – who don't match your criterion for denial. By law, we can't know whose ITIN is whose. On this point alone it seems to me that we should include taxpayers using ITINs s eligible for stimulus benefits.

I disagree, so do both houses of congress and both major political parties. And it appears congress found a solution to this as of today.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I hear this a lot. It has no basis in reality. It further incentivizes aliens to come to the US illegally. That in turn clogs up our already overcrowded emergency rooms. Public schools are nearly unusable and money keeps pouring in for ESL and Spanish language instruction - furthering the breaking down of social cohesion among pupils. And even if it were true, I wouldn't care about lolbertarians logic pretzels how illegal aliens "benefit" the country.

I didn't say it was a benefit. I asked your position if it was. If it was a benefit, would you support it?

 

[Baylor]

I didn't say it was a benefit. I asked your position if it was. If it was a benefit, would you support it?

How do you quantify "a benefit." Even if all the lolbertarian logic pretzels were true, it doesn't take into account incentivization. And I don't want the increased ethnic and linguistic fractionalization and those aren't "benefits." Your question is malformed, but the answer is still no.

 

[BobTheCoward]

How do you quantify "a benefit." Even if all the lolbertarian logic pretzels were true, it doesn't take into account incentivization. And I don't want the increased ethnic and linguistic fractionalization and those aren't "benefits." Your question is malformed, but the answer is still no.

A cost benefit analysis would take into account incentives.

Separately, what do you have against ethnic and linguistic fractionalization? Being stuck with the same ethnic and language groups sounds very boring.

 

[Baylor]

A cost benefit analysis would take into account incentives.

Not in any meaningful way it wouldn't.

, what do you have against ethnic and linguistic fractionalization? Being stuck with the same ethnic and language groups sounds very boring.

I've been through this hundreds of time on this forum. Sigh, less ethnic and linguistic fractionalization leads to less conflict and higher standard of living. And that leads to skeptics thumping out their chest how great their white countries are.

Here's a list of diverse countries ranked. Least diverse (and most white) are the ones skeptics love. You like diversity? Head to Papua New Guinea, you'll love it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level

 

[BobTheCoward]

Not in any meaningful way it wouldn't.


I've been through this hundreds of time on this forum. Sigh, less ethnic and linguistic fractionalization leads to less conflict and higher standard of living. And that leads to skeptics thumping out their chest how great their white countries are.

Here's a list of diverse countries ranked. Least diverse (and most white) are the ones skeptics love. You like diversity? Head to Papua New Guinea, you'll love it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level

I don't want a higher standard of living if it means being stuck with a bunch of Karens.



Yes, good cost benefit analysis factor incentives. It is kind of one of the most important concepts in economics.

 

[Baylor]

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Baylor]

Yes, good cost benefit analysis factor incentives. It is kind of one of the most important concepts in economics.

Here's another libertarian example of "something that exists only in my mind."

 

[BobTheCoward]

Here's another libertarian example of "something that exists only in my mind."

Wait, do you think cost benefit analyses done by economists....

Keep in mind basic economics lessons sound like this...

Incentives sounds like a topic to discuss in a pyschology class rather than an economics class. However, incentives are fundamental to economic behavior. In economics, incentives matter. You won’t be able to understand economics without understanding incentives and disincentives.

In economics, incentives may involve either cultural norms, or financial rewards and punishments. Cultural norms may offer incentives by rewarding with social acclaim those who help the needy, or may offer disincentives by punishing those who engage in theft.

....you think they don't factor in incentives?

 

[smartcooky]

urban dictionary doesn't count.

Does too!

 

[The Shrike]

I could not disagree more.

That's nice, but it's irrelevant to the current conversation. Remember, that was me acknowledging my bias for the purpose of not letting it color the conversation we were about to have. You did not list a bias of your own to acknowledge, so I'll just put you down for "doesn't want to be known as a pseudointellectual." On to the substance then...

I asked if illegal aliens should derive any benefits from the taxes they pay. You said:

No

I asked for which benefits from the stimulus package illegal aliens who paid taxes with an ITIN should be ineligible. You said:

All of them

I mentioned the CBO analysis that concluded that considering all sources of tax revenue and benefit use, illegal immigrants in the "exceed the cost of the services they use."

That report grossly underestimated the number of illegal aliens in the country. ...
And newer reports show How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants along with the $30 billion dollar a year it costs to school children of illegal aliens.

Emphasis mine. Did you bother to compare the number of illegal aliens in the CBO report from 2007 and the number Conover used for his piece in Forbes (based on 2016 data)? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up: they're the same at 11.3 million.

Such BS. You've been gaslit, plain and simple. The idea that illegal aliens do jobs "Americans don't want" is laughable on its face. Americans will do it if adequately compensated. Circumventing hard-fought labor rights is not "a benefit." I don't know how you can have such incongruent ideas going on simultaneously. I'd say "cognitive dissonance!" again but I'm not a pseudointellectual so I won't.

Leaning toward ad hominems, but whatever...

Again, my bias is to favor the workers, so I direct my ire for immigration issues in the US toward the employers hiring illegal aliens, not the people applying for the jobs. Why do employers say that they hire illegal aliens? They say that they have no choice. But again, this is not directly relevant to our question.

I disagree, so do both houses of congress and both major political parties. And it appears congress found a solution to this as of today.

Aha, I see that folks filing via ITIN will NOT be eligible for benefits under the COVID-19 stimulus. Well, regardless of your feelings toward tax-paying illegal aliens, I hope we can both agree that this is a shame for legal folks who file with an ITIN?

 

[Baylor]

I mentioned the CBO analysis that concluded that considering all sources of tax revenue and benefit use, illegal immigrants in the "exceed the cost of the services they use."

I'm calling BS. They grossly underestimated the number of illegal aliens in the US so the "report" is not valid.

Emphasis mine. Did you bother to compare the number of illegal aliens in the CBO report from 2007 and the number Conover used for his piece in Forbes (based on 2016 data)? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up: they're the same at 11.3 million.

And? Is this suppose to be a "gotcha?" You left out the YouTube video explaining the proper methodology. Proper methodology shows there's closer to 25 million illegal aliens in the country, making them a much bigger burden than previous estimates.

Again, my bias is to favor the workers,

Again, I'm calling complete BS. If your "bias is to favor the workers," then you'd be adamantly against illegal immigration. Instead you purport "economic benefits" of illegal immigration that indisputably do not favor workers.

Aha, I see that folks filing via ITIN will NOT be eligible for benefits under the COVID-19 stimulus. Well, regardless of your feelings toward tax-paying illegal aliens, I hope we can both agree that this is a shame for legal folks who file with an ITIN?

Those with a valid SSN can file a "simple" tax return soon and be eligible for the stimulus. So no, shaming tactics in the form of stupid questions don't work.

 

[The Shrike]

Again, I'm calling complete BS. If your "bias is to favor the workers," then you'd be adamantly against illegal immigration.

I am against illegal immigration, and strongly support harsh punishments for those who hire illegal aliens.

Instead you purport "economic benefits" of illegal immigration that indisputably do not favor workers.

I don't purport that as I have no data of my own on which to judge. I can only relay what other analyses conclude. It is objectively the case that illegal aliens pay taxes and buy stuff. It is anecdotally the case that among the thousands of university students I've advised in my career, not one has indicated to me a desire to work in a slaughterhouse, as a migrant farm laborer, or a cleaner of motel rooms.

Those with a valid SSN can file a "simple" tax return soon and be eligible for the stimulus. So no, shaming tactics in the form of stupid questions don't work.

So, what you're saying is that Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' tweet does, in fact, not constitute a threat to national security?

 

[Baylor]

I am against illegal immigration, and strongly support harsh punishments for those who hire illegal aliens.

Glad we're on the same page. I think hiring illegal aliens should be a Class A felony.

So, what you're saying is that Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' tweet does, in fact, not constitute a threat to national security?

I don't know why this question is directed at me.

 

[Baylor]

I don't purport that as I have no data of my own on which to judge. I can only relay what other analyses conclude. It is objectively the case that illegal aliens pay taxes and buy stuff. It is anecdotally the case that among the thousands of university students I've advised in my career, not one has indicated to me a desire to work in a slaughterhouse, as a migrant farm laborer, or a cleaner of motel rooms.

Never was the hotel industry, the meat industry, or the farm industry in danger of collapsing due to labor shortages. The idea the these industries were doomed to failure until millions of illegal aliens started flooding the country in the late 90's and aughts is absurd on its face. I have trouble believing that people actually believe it. If you do, you didn't come to this conclusion on your own. You've been gaslit, plain and simple.