AkuManiMani
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2008
- Messages
- 3,089
You seem to be firmly stuck in a conceptual mode [by will or by flub] thats preventing you from seeing what I'm getting at. Metaphorically speaking, what I'm trying to get you to do is step back and stop thinking merely in terms of the abstract symbolism you're using to count tally sticks and focus on the sticks as physical objects.
I see what you are getting at (consciousness as we know it currently only happens in brains, so it is something brain-specific),
Nescafe, I'm genuinely shocked. Is that -honestly- what you think my point is? Really?
I just disagree that consciousness is necessarily brain-specific -- brains are evolved information processors, so (in principle) we can implement the information processing that brains do in some other suitable physical object.
And what constitutes a "suitable physical object"?
Remember that computations are carried about by physical hardware.
Digital physics aside, of course.
[Wow, you really wanna start playin' games now, huh? Up until a couple of posts ago, I was under the impression that you wanted to have a meaningful discussion. But since you insist... :-/ ]
Oh, lets not put digital physics aside. I forgot that one can conjure any physical object they want by simply computing it into existence. Heck, why don't we digitally transmute lead into gold while we're at it?
Understanding, in the abstract, the computational ops that underly the symbolic representations on your calculator's screen is not the same as understanding the LCD thats displaying those symbols or knowing how to make one.
Right, that abstract understanding enables you to implement them on any suitable physical substrate that you have sufficient technical proficiency with.
I guess that rules out consciousness then.
Step back into metaphor with me because I really don't think you truly grok what it is I've been saying. Think of the mind as a computer monitor, consciousness as the illumination of the screen, and qualia as the various color pixels that are able to be produced by the display. Symbols on the screen are the products of the computations performed, but the actual display [i.e. the screen, the pixels, and the power used to light the screen] used to conveying those symbols is a product of the -physics- of the hardware.
Right. And in support of my viewpoint, any display that meets the minimum necessary technical requirements will do whether it is based on liquid crystals, lasers, mirrors, phosphor coated tubes, cuttlefish rhodopsins, whatever.
Or counting your fingers, or using a reeeeaally big complicated abacus. Oh, wait -- I thought we were talking about consciousness. Wrong discussion I guess.
Interesting that you appear to view consciousness in a transmission/reception paradigm, though.
What the hell are you talking about? Are you referring to how neurons transmit and receive electrochemical signals? Is that some kind of radical paradigm held in minority view or something?
So do you think conscious experience is something going on in a magical ether realm of abstraction separate from the physical universe?
No, I just recognize that information processing does not depend on any particular substrate -- any substrate that meets the minimum requirements of being able to accept, store, transform, and output information will do.
Wait. I thought you believed that every substrate -is- the acceptance, storage, transformation, and output of information? Have you lost faith in digital physics already?
Nescafe, if I take a pencil and write "1" on a piece of paper is it literally the number one?![]()
There is no literal physical number 1. That does not stop it from being a useful abstraction.
Just a "useful abstraction"? You were just touting the belief that the physical world we live in is digital. Is it a "useful abstraction" too?
Your view of what we must do to understand consciousness seems as silly as insisting that the only way we can understand 1 is by understanding what exactly is happening with that graphite/clay mark on the paper at the atomic level.
Oh, I get it. So your consciousness is not a literal physical process, its just a "useful abstraction" like the rest of the "abstract" universe we live in...
Snark.Your point being?
Garbage in, garbage out.
...is just a switching pattern on a computer that we use to symbolically represent an actual power plant.
To the same degree of oversimplification, consciousness is just a pattern of neural discharges in the brain.
Unless you have evidence for it being more than that?
You've just pithily demonstrated for me how the whole physical universe reduces down to digital abstraction. There is no difference between a simulation and the physical system its simulating because everything is made of ones and zeros (which don't literally exist, mind you) and all of reality has just disappeared in a puff of logic. How could I possible present any evidence now?
Last edited: