Are dolphins stupid?

[andyandy]

Big if. Sort of like if the extent of Einstein's argument on relativity involved a guy sitting on a hot stove versus next to a pretty girl.

well, where's the rest of it?! the one reason he gives is hardly convincing....indeed it casts some doubt as to whether he knows what he's talking about at all......

to give an analogy of a rat being able to climb out of a box to demonstrate intelligence beyond that of an ocean dwelling dolphin is rather dumb....

 

[andyandy]

I assumed it was him putting part of his work in terms laypeople could understand. But if he submitted that one-liner to Nature for publication, I agree -what a joke.

see, now i've quoted your original and your edit, and people are going to be confused

 

[CriticalThanking]

I seem to remember a television episode of Scientific American that showed that dolphins were capable of learning grammar. They could understand actions sequences they had never seen before. IIRC, they were groupings of symbols/signals of the form VERB-OBJECT-LOCATION, such as TAKE-RINGTOY-LEFT. While the various verbs, obects and locations had all been used during training, the novel combinations provided no problems, and when impossible combinations were presented, the dolphins did nothing. The trainer presenting the instructions was "blinded": he wore a mask he could not see through so he could not give away anything by looking at a particular object or location.

That would put them up there with chimps for language processing, IIRC.

CT

 

[andyandy]

I seem to remember a television episode of Scientific American that showed that dolphins were capable of learning grammar. They could understand actions sequences they had never seen before. IIRC, they were groupings of symbols/signals of the form VERB-OBJECT-LOCATION, such as TAKE-RINGTOY-LEFT. While the various verbs, obects and locations had all been used during training, the novel combinations provided no problems, and when impossible combinations were presented, the dolphins did nothing. The trainer presenting the instructions was "blinded": he wore a mask he could not see through so he could not give away anything by looking at a particular object or location.

That would put them up there with chimps for language processing, IIRC.

CT

so no eating them, then?

 

[Thomas]

I haven't really looked into dolphin intelligence, except that I have seen them jump around on command and pick the right symbols on a list to get snacks, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there were element of the Clever Hans Effect involved.

 

[Meffy]

so no eating them, then?

That's right, no eating chimps. Just think -- someone has to run the Free World.






No dolphins either or I'll wreak horrible revenge.

 

[senorpogo]

"You put an animal in a box, even a lab rat or gerbil, and the first thing it wants to do is climb out of it. If you don't put a lid on top of the bowl a goldfish will eventually jump out. But a dolphin will never do that. "

You see, the stupid dolphins don't jump out of their bowl and die on the carpet like the very intelligent gold fish.

 

[Amapola]

Intelligence is a pretty complex thing. It takes more than one test to determing whether an animal is intelligent or not...... and even then, it's all going to come down to how we define intelligence.

This is an animal that is highly successful at surviving in it's environment. Why would we attempt to compare it to an animal that survives in an entirely different environment? If you were a dolphin and you thought jumping into the air was going to get you someplace else, the other dolphins would probably think you were incredibly dim. The example the guy gives is not compelling at all.

 

[senorpogo]

Maybe I missed it, but did we get this far into a "dolphin intelligence" post without a single reference to the works of Douglas Adams?

 

[GreedyAlgorithm]

Maybe I missed it, but did we get this far into a "dolphin intelligence" post without a single reference to the works of Douglas Adams?

...Nope?

 

[Dogdoctor]

Well, I haven't read anything in the articles on this guy's research to suggest that he thinks dolphins are smarter than dogs.

That's right, he thinks they are dumber than dogs and/or is developing his own personal way to measure intelligence and ignoring the large amount of info already developed on this subject.

 

[The Atheist]

Maybe I missed it, but did we get this far into a "dolphin intelligence" post without a single reference to the works of Douglas Adams?

Thrice-be-damned!

I have only just found this thread and you've beaten me to Douglas Adams by mere minutes.

Whoever you are, I hope the Vogons take your place first!

 

[bob_kark]

I'm wondering if the byline for this guy's paper was

All I know is I beat them at trivia every time. You tell me.

 

[Verde]

so no eating them, then?

Oh, silly boy!
Remember the flap of L20 years ago, when it was revealed that much[1] of the tuna catch was actually comprised of dolphins, inadvertantly caught in the nets. I was horrified to think that my delicious tuna sandwich was FLIPPER!!!!
It tasted pretty good, though.

I'm not going to quote it (because, dimmit!, I can't work out how to get the forum seach to work) but I had previously mentioned that:
a) dolphins are clearly supported by the NewAge movement, &
b) dolphins do not distance themselves from that.

While I had suggested that dolphins are thus open to exploitation, I would maybe now accept that eating them is also quite acceptable.

Verde, currently down in Chile and trying to get this glacier moved.

[1] For varying amounts of 'much', somewhere between zero and 1e-6.

 

[Dave1001]

I haven't really looked into dolphin intelligence, except that I have seen them jump around on command and pick the right symbols on a list to get snacks, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there were element of the Clever Hans Effect involved.

Ah thanks, the more technical term for the point I was making earlier.

 

[I less than three logic]

Maybe I missed it, but did we get this far into a "dolphin intelligence" post without a single reference to the works of Douglas Adams?

I wanted to say that, but found your post before I did.

 

[Roboramma]

I haven't really looked into dolphin intelligence, except that I have seen them jump around on command and pick the right symbols on a list to get snacks, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there were element of the Clever Hans Effect involved.

On the other hand:

The trainer presenting the instructions was "blinded": he wore a mask he could not see through so he could not give away anything by looking at a particular object or location.

Point being - I doubt that the Clever Hans effect is not being taken into account by those biologists studying Dolphin intelligence and "language" abilities.

 

[Dave1001]

On the other hand:


Point being - I doubt that the Clever Hans effect is not being taken into account by those biologists studying Dolphin intelligence and "language" abilities.

Well, as I posted earlier, it would be one of the more spectacular cases of Hans effect skewing human perception of animal behavior and intelligence.

 

[trvlr2]

Wha?

Oh, silly boy!
Remember the flap of L20 years ago, when it was revealed that much[1] of the tuna catch was actually comprised of dolphins, inadvertantly caught in the nets. I was horrified to think that my delicious tuna sandwich was FLIPPER!!!!
It tasted pretty good, though.

I'm not going to quote it (because, dimmit!, I can't work out how to get the forum seach to work) but I had previously mentioned that:
a) dolphins are clearly supported by the NewAge movement, &
b) dolphins do not distance themselves from that.

While I had suggested that dolphins are thus open to exploitation, I would maybe now accept that eating them is also quite acceptable.

Verde, currently down in Chile and trying to get this glacier moved.

[1] For varying amounts of 'much', somewhere between zero and 1e-6.

No. I surely don't remember that instance
I Have seen the video(same one, over and over) of a dolphin getting caught up in the haulback block of a purse seiner.
Since then, US flag vessels are required to take observers, and to make sure the dolphins caught in the seine are released. Also the practice of setting on dolphin is discouraged. Won't say it never happens, just that fishermen are much more ethical that any governmentIMHO.
Evidently,you don't understand much about tuna fishing. The catch is sorted, and put into freezing brine. Even deckhands know that you get paid for the tons of TUNA , unloaded at the cannery. Unless you are a japanese vessel, where the dolphin would be frozen and sold at a higher price,possibly.
Processing is minimal at the cannery, the fish being sliced up into can sized pieces,stuffed into cans, sealed and cooked, packed and shipped.
Do you think there would not be a difference in texture between red meat and fish? Color? Taste? How about the large bones?
Yes, there has been a downgrade in the quality of canned tuna-from using other species, that wouldn't sell before, vs the yellowfin, which WAS the standard, years ago. But, you are not eating dolphins.Never were.

Interesting link- //www.photolib.noaa.gov/fish/fiind36.htm

Bluefins are the "high priced spread", not canned.
http://www.fao.org/figis/servlet/fi...40&st_extra=&ste=st_group,8518&st_group=#8518

scroll to the bottom "impacts"

How smart are they? Depends on whom you ask. They do seem to compare to us,in that they have some not-so-sterling qualities. Or, maybe we compare to them, all animals here, red in fang and claw.

 

[articulett]

so no eating them, then?

Well there's mahi mahi (dolphin fish...they don't have that nice mammaly taste though)

I heard that dolphins recognize themselves in a mirror...chimps do too--monkeys don't--kid's do at around 18 months I think (if you put a dot of lipstick on their heads and they see themselves in a mirror they reach for the spot...dolphins can't really reach...so I forget how they tested them). Dogs are one of the few mammals that look where you point (awareness of others having a point of view different from theirs)--cats just stare at your finger...rats probably bite it to see if there are any tasty morsels present.