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Are dolphins stupid?

It just requires a little thought....example.

read more here
It also requires a little thought to understand that this thread is about dolphin abilities, and not whether a dog can fetch. This is quite well-known and not in dispute.

I'm more interested in the details from the experiments that claim that dolphins knows grammar/algebra/whatever, things that seem unlikely. I don't think anyone doubts that they can jump through a ring or fetch etc.

It's the experiments with the more exotic (grammar/algebra/etc.) conclusions I'm interested in, so I might could check if they use proper controls, like double-blind testing (anti-CH controls), chance-calibration, peer review etc. I'm an agnostic untill then.
 
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It also requires a little thought to understand that this thread is about dolphin abilities, and not whether a dog can fetch. This is quite well-known and not in dispute.

just to clarify your last post

Originally Posted by Dave1001
Well, to what degree are we able to completely control for Clever Hans while testing animals for human-type social intelligence? From the articles I've read on this topic, I got the sense that even claims that primates have demonstrated human-type language abilities are controversial, in part because of difficulty to control for Clever Hans effect.

I was going to ask something similar, so I'll look forward to the reply.

perhaps you didn't understand what you were replying to.....
 
and in any case, the Rico experiment could just as easily be applied to studying language ability in dolphins.....

If you wanted to test basic language understanding you could have one set of noun cards, and another of verb cards - controlled in the same way.
 
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perhaps you didn't understand what you were replying to.....
This thread is about dolphin experiments, that should be quite clear from the title, and while the Clever Hans effect is part of it, then I don't care if experiments with dogs, ants, horses, whatever, accounts for this issue. It is exotic dolphin abilities that are in dispute now.
 
and in any case, the Rico experiment could just as easily be applied to studying language ability in dolphins.....

If you wanted to test basic language understanding you could have one set of noun cards, and another of verb cards - controlled in the same way.
Sure, but as I said, I don't dispute that dolphins can fetch with a large vocabulary. I could imagine that such an experiment has already been carried out within scientific limits. I'm more interested in the more exotic conclusions (grammar/algebra/etc).
 
when you say "exotic conclusions" - you'll have to specify what those conclusions are, and who made them.

but, for starters, just to prove how scientists do (of course) take various precautions against hans, here's a pdf re. testing dolphin repitition of arbitrary behaviours using an abstract rule.....

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~emiii/alb.pdf

on the bottom of page 3 of the pdf, you'll find a paragraph on how they guarded against inadvertant cueing...

1) wearing opaque goggles to prevent visual observation of the dolphin's perfomance, and to prevent eye gaze cues

2) The trainer was unaware of the 2nd gesture command

3) there was no opportunity for the trainer to monitor the dolphin's responses - and so no cues could be given about the animal's correct (or incorerct) performance

4) the experimenter and the blind observer judging the dolphin's behaviour were located in an enclosed raised platform out of the dolphin's sight - so could not provide any cues to guide the animal's behaviour.
 
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when you say "exotic conclusions" - you'll have to specify what those conclusions are, and who made them.

but, for starters, just to prove how scientists do (of course) take various precautions against hans, here's a pdf re. testing dolphin repitition of arbitrary behaviours using an abstract rule.....

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~emiii/alb.pdf

on the bottom of page 3 of the pdf, you'll find a paragraph on how they guarded against inadvertant cueing...

1) wearing opaque goggles to prevent visual observation of the dolphin's perfomance, and to prevent eye gaze cues

2) The trainer was unaware of the 2nd gesture command

3) there was no opportunity for the trainer to monitor the dolphin's responses - and so no cues could be given about the animal's correct (or incorerct) performance

4) the experimenter and the blind observer judging the dolphin's behaviour were located in an enclosed raised platform out of the dolphin's sight - so could not provide any cues to guide the animal's behaviour.
Interesting, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I said grammar and algebra. From the report:

"One dolphin was able to repeat all 36 behaviors she was tested on, including behaviors involving multiple simultaneous actions and self-selected behaviors. These results suggest that dolphins can flexibly access memories of their recent actions and that these memories are of sufficient detail to allow for reenactments. The repeating task can potentially be used to investigate short-term action and event representations in a variety of species."

So dolphins can "access memories of their recent actions", but I fail to see anything remotely unlikely about that. I'm still more interested in studies that suggest they can do grammar, algebra etc.

ETA: I have never disputed that real scientists use proper controls (but thanks for putting those words in my mouth, they were tasty), what I'm concerned about, is whether the experiments that claim grammar capabilities etc., actually are performed by qualified scientists.​
 
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Interesting, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I said grammar and algebra. From the report:

"One dolphin was able to repeat all 36 behaviors she was tested on, including behaviors involving multiple simultaneous actions and self-selected behaviors. These results suggest that dolphins can flexibly
access memories of their recent actions and that these memories are of sufficient detail to allow for reenactments. The repeating task can potentially be used to investigate short-term action and event
representations in a variety of species."

So dolphins can "access memories of their recent actions", but I fail to see anything remotely exotic or unlikely about that. I'm still more interested in studies that suggest they can do grammar, algebra etc.

lol

i think we're going round in circles here....:)

I'm intent on showing that clever hans is indeed taken into account by any half-decent scientist......and that experiments have been done on animal intelligence using methods designed as such. But, you'll have to provide me with information on what studies suggesting they can do "grammar or algebra etc" you're refering to...


edit

if you agree that "real scientists" use proper controls, then i'm not sure what we're arguing over.....if the studies you refer to are carried out by "real scientists" then i assume you'd accept them, and if they're not carried out by "real scientists" then why would you (or anyone else) consider their conclusions valid?
 
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Well, I've never seen one use a superfluous apostrophe, if that helps... (sorry!).

Darn!
At least I can say it's a typo, because it isn't in the thread title!

ETA:
Actually, it's a spelling error. I meant "our dolphin is stupid."
 
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lol

i think we're going round in circles here....:)

I'm intent on showing that clever hans is indeed taken into account by any half-decent scientist......and that experiments have been done on animal intelligence using methods designed as such. But, you'll have to provide me with information on what studies suggesting they can do "grammar or algebra etc" you're refering to...
I have never for a second disputed that the majority of animal behavior researchers account for Clever Hans. If you noticed it, then I jumped into this thread right after it was proposed that dolphins know grammar.

My very first post here also contained a wiki link to Clever Hans that says:

"The risk of Clever Hans effects is one strong reason why comparative psychologists normally test animals in isolated apparatus, without interaction with them."

That's the very first line, so that's why I never quite understood what you were aiming at. But still, when I hear the more exotic claims (like: dolphins can do grammar), then I wonder how well the experiment was carried out by default, and in the above case there were no links to sources with further details.
 
Well, to what degree are we able to completely control for Clever Hans while testing animals for human-type social intelligence?

Almost completely, depending upon the experimental methodology.

Just make sure that the tester is unaware of what the "correct" answer is. This can be as complicated as using computer-generated stimuli or as simple as making a deck of cards with stimuli and drawing them blindly.


From the articles I've read on this topic, I got the sense that even claims that primates have demonstrated human-type language abilities are controversial, in part because of difficulty to control for Clever Hans effect.

Er, the reason that "claims that primates have demonstrated human-type language abilities are controversial" has more to do with the shifting definition of "human-type."


Since the controversial claim in this discussion is that "dolphins are less intelligent than lab rats or goldfish," that question doesn't arise. I don't think anyone is claiming that dolphins have human-type language or the ability to do algebra.
 
ok, well for simple grammar testing (subject, verb, object) i'd expect for the researchers to follow the same proceedures as for http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~emiii/alb.pdf

i've done a quick web search for tests of the sort you're talking about....

the website isn't especially professional looking (http://tursiops.org/dolfin/guide/intel.html)
but the information in it might serve as a base to look into the proceedures used by scientists (hippies? :) ) like Louis Herman.....

Louis Herman is perhaps todays foremost researcher studying communication and cognitive abilities in dolphins through using artificial languages (i.e. simple languages created for the research). He has focused on language comprehension rather than production, because comprehension is the first sign of linguistic competency in young children, and because comprehension can be tested in a more controlled manner than production.

In Herman's work, two dolphins, Akeakamai (Ake), and Phoenix, were taught artificial languages. Phoenix was taught an acoustical language made of computer generated sounds. Ake was taught a gestural, or visual, language. The signals of the artificial languages represent objects, object modifiers, or actions. Neither the gestures nor the sounds resemble the objects or relational terms to which they refer. The languages also use syntax or simple grammar rules, meaning that the word order effects the meaning of the sentence. Phoenix was taught a straightforward left-to-right grammar. Ake's gestural language grammar is inverse, requiring her to view an entire gestured sequence before it can be interpreted correctly. For example, in Ake's gestural language, the sequence of signals PIPE SURFBOARD FETCH means bring the surfboard to the pipe, and SURFBOARD PIPE FETCH means bring the pipe to the surfboard. Phoenix and Ake have each learned approx. 50 words, these 50 words allow more than 1000 different 'sentences', each eliciting an unlearned, unrehearsed response. To minimize any possible effects of orientation to space or person on dolphin learning, stations and trainers are changed from session to session. Blind observers, people who do not know and can not see the commands given, are used to label the actions they observe the dolphins perform as a means of comparing objectively the response to the command.

Trainers wear dark goggles, maintain expressionless faces, and hold their bodies steady during formal training sessions. Dolphins can understand gestural signals given by televised images of signers about as well as they can from live signers. Even just showing white hands in black space, or white spots of light tracing out the dynamics of the gesture, were understood. Because of these experiments, it seems that the dolphins are responding to the abstract symbols of the language rather than to any non-language communication or cues.

In addition to following the language instructions, Herman's dolphins can now correctly answer whether a specified item is present or absent by pressing the appropriate paddle (the white one for yes, or present, and the black one for no, or absent). This demonstrates the skill of displacement, the conjuring of images that are not around. It has been similarly demonstrated by Sue Savage-Rumbaugh, of Yerkes Primate Research Center, that apes are able to understand a reference to something that is not in their presence.

Additional experiments have been conducted to determine how the dolphins are interpreting the language labels. "We did test to see, for example, what a hoop is to a dolphin. A hoop is not just the hoop used in training the animal. It's anything with an opening in it, relatively large to its perimeter. So we have round, square, and little hoops; hoops that float and hoops that lie on the bottom."Footnote5

Things Herman has been unable to successfully teach the dolphins includes the concept "not" as a logical modifier, so that jump over "NOT BALL" would indicate jump over anything but a ball. Also large and small do not seem to have been understood by the dolphins.

Data acquired from whale vocalization studies was practically applied to save a young whale when Herman provided a recorded whale feeding sound that was used to successfully lure Humphrey, the humpback whale who had swam more than fifty miles up the Sacramento river, back to the open ocean.

Says Herman, "We now ask, `Is there a frisbee in the tank?` It's not much of a stretch to say, `Is there a whale out there? A submarine? What's on the bottom?`"Footnote6

i need to do some work, or i'm going to get into trouble, but i'll try to find out more later :)
 
Darn!
At least I can say it's a typo, because it isn't in the thread title!

ETA:
Actually, it's a spelling error. I meant "our dolphin is stupid."

Ah, I feel guilty for even mentioning it. And for being unable to add anything of value to the conversation come to that. Although I will say that I've always thought the worship dolphins attract for their intelligence a little...."glurgey", to use a Snopes-ism. It's a sort of self-beat up exercise for humans that implies that they've succeeded where we've failed by continually warring and damaging the environment. Which completely ignores the reality, which is that even if dolphins are as smart as us, the primary reason for their serene swimming about as opposed to waging war and being generally unpleasant to each other is not that they are on a higher moral plane, but rather that they lack the opportunity to develop technology and culture and therefore trash the planet!

Or put another way, when was the last time you saw a dolphin carrying a briefcase? Dolphin-worship = woo. Dolphinwoo.
 
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I don't think anyone is claiming that dolphins have human-type language or the ability to do algebra.

What? I thought dolphins were fully capable of calculating surface integrals of vector fields, with very neat work. :boggled:

Well, they're just not intelligent if they can't!

:D

ETA: dolphin worship might equal woo. For that matter, worshipping anything might be woo. However, the fact that moon-eyed school kids and college drop outs admire dolphins in no way reflects on whether they are intelligent, or not.
 
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You can't quite see the end of his flipper in that picture, but at the time he was actually typing his results into his water proof computer.

Also, dolphins can make cubes with sides of length sqrt(-1). Another thing that dolphins can do is exploit tunneling to spontaneously move from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Anything less and they just wouldn't be as smart as goldfish.
 
(http://tursiops.org/dolfin/guide/intel.html)
but the information in it might serve as a base to look into the proceedures used by scientists (hippies? :) ) like Louis Herman.....
I couldn't care less if he was sucking on his crackpipe while having the dolphins do a tango :) ..But one particular part of that experiment hurts my eyes:

"Trainers wear dark goggles, maintain expressionless faces, and hold their bodies steady during formal training sessions."

Are they really? Funny, that's exactly what Hans' trainer claimed too. Get those goddamn trainers out of there, and in with a couple of speakers and a number of pre-recorded sentences (or TVs as they mention).

Anyway, grammer is a lot of things besides the sequence of a few words (and the following actions), but it does sound very romantic to say that dolphins knows grammer. It's on par with saying that they know mathematics if they can count to three.

If we look apart from that, then the experiment seems to be carried out fairly well.
 
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From the article:


But rats/gerbils fit into an environment filled with obsticles. They need an instinct for getting around and over them. Their spacial skills are probably tuned in to that sort of thing.

Dolphins are in the wide open sea.

And what seperates the dolphins from the sea? Why would they want to jump into the cell next door? Especially if there's already a dolphin there to describe it to them! :p

It depends on the dolphin. Some dolphins, such as those in Shark Bay, live in very shallow waters.
 
I couldn't care less if he was sucking on his crackpipe while having the dolphins do a tango :) ..But one particular part of that experiment hurts my eyes:

"Trainers wear dark goggles, maintain expressionless faces, and hold their bodies steady during formal training sessions."

Are they really? Funny, that's exactly what Hans' trainer claimed too. Get those goddamn trainers out of there, and in with a couple of speakers and a number of pre-recorded sentences (or TVs as they mention).

Anyway, grammer is a lot of things besides the sequence of a few words (and the following actions), but it does sound very romantic to say that dolphins knows grammer. It's on par with saying that they know mathematics if they can count to three.

If we look apart from that, then the experiment seems to be carried out fairly well.


i'd agree....to cut out any subliminal cues, the trainer could remain in the pool (perhaps that's necessary for a response?) but they could wear earplugs, whilst a previous voice recording (perhaps the dolphins respond only to their voice?) is piped into the water.....
that would seem to fix it.....

with regards to language and grammar, certainly by human standards it all seems very rudimentary (perhaps early toddler level....).... i personally still find that quite impressive - but perhaps i just have low expectations of our animal friends :D
 

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