Are debunkers all that keep the "truth movement" alive?

[SDC]

Conspiratorial thinking (remember Hofstadter's classic, "Paranoid Style in American Politics") will always be with us. It now spreads faster and more widely due to the internet; but it also is debunked, or at least criticized, faster and more widely than could be done before.

The truth movement, that being the case, is as dead as it can be. Here at Jref, at least, they are the near-death-mice being idly pawed by the bored cats.

 

[twinstead]

This thread's got me thinking (and that's hard to do):

One would think that this thread and others like it would serve to motivate the 911 deniers to actually get out there and get support from mainstream scientists and journalists just to 'show us'.

 

[Drudgewire]

this distraction from them will not end until November, and then Bush et al will be gone, and noone in the general public will GIVE A ****.

TAM

It's one reason to pull for a McCain victory, simply to watch them freak out that the new boss is the dude who wrote the foreward for the evil Popular Mechanics book o' lies.

 

[CHF]

As George Mobiot once said: "The great thing about a fake conspiracy is that it calls on you to do nothing."

And that's exactly what twoofers do - nothing.

I think deep down even the dedicated ones know (or at least highly suspect) that their "evidence" is complete rubbish. Why else would they do so little with it?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Since then, JHarrow has added his vote to the "within a week or so" bin, but given that he has perhaps the highest lie-per-post ratio of anyone ever to appear here and has offered no new information whatsoever,

That's a bit harsh. Most of his posts don't contain enough words for more than one lie.

Dave

 

[SezMe]

I think there's an important people between "people who believe something" and "movement". The truth movement can only really be said to consist of people who actively argue in favour of 9/11 conspiracies. Like any other topic, conspiracy related or not, there are probably a lot more people who think there might be something to it, but just don't care enough to ever do anything. Just think of things like black rights or gay rights. Most people are supportive of the idea, but very few actually go out and do something. A movement isn't made up of all those at home who don't even think about it until someone specifically asks them a question, it's made up of the people who are actively involved with trying to promote an idea.

That's an important distinction that I agree with and which sets my cites in my previous post in a better context. I agree that the TM, per se, is weak (at best) but there are a lot of people who harbor doubts, don't know or are maybe even suspicious but that is the extent of their attention to it.

 

[R.Mackey]

That's a bit harsh. Most of his posts don't contain enough words for more than one lie.

Dave

The ratio is less than one, but it's still extremely high. Not even Killtown lied in every post. JHarrow's best competition, such as it is, will be from pdoherty and his army of socks.

The one that amazes me is the first I encountered, where he tried to buffalo me with the Huber paper as evidence that smoke around WTC 7 didn't come from WTC 7, but was instead trapped by a "wake vortex." Yet he hasn't even read the paper... and lied saying that he had... to me, someone with experience with wind tunnels and extensive knowledge of fluid dynamics.

These aren't clever lies. These are stupid lies.

This is common pathology in the Truth Movement, so I believe there is some truth to the OP, namely that without debunkers the whole thing would almost totally vanish. Again, I think Gage and Dr. Jones would be exempt from this, but they would certainly be almost entirely alone.

 

[CHF]

This is common pathology in the Truth Movement, so I believe there is some truth to the OP, namely that without debunkers the whole thing would almost totally vanish. Again, I think Gage and Dr. Jones would be exempt from this, but they would certainly be almost entirely alone.

There was certainly a need for debunkers when the TM first started to pick up converts in 2005-06.

But now that the TM's claims have been shredded and is basically falling apart from within...let's face it: at this point we're just kicking the corpse.

 

[pomeroo]

You raise a good point. I have to admit, I guess I'm guilty of giving them some attention that they so desperately crave.

The CIT crazies have released another video which - they claimed - was evidence that the 84th RADES data was fraudulent, and also pointed to a third plane being involved in addition to the "decoy" jet and the c130... I should have walked away.. but it's like a freaking train wreck with them. I just can't look away!

It honestly leaves me dumbfounded when I read what some of the people over there post... It's pretty safe to accuse these people of being in denial, but I'm guilty of being in my own little world of denial where people just can't be this stupid.

And remember that the Penta-conmen refuse to take any of their bogus evidence to a real news outlet because everyone is in on it. What sad, pathetic jackasses!

 

[Pardalis]

There was certainly a need for debunkers when the TM first started to pick up converts in 2005-06.

But now that the TM's claims have been shredded and is basically falling apart from within...let's face it: at this point we're just kicking the corpse.

The fact that Bush is going might have something to do with the decline of the TM as well.

People have no longer a reason to sustain the level of anxiety toward the Bush administration anymore, which is the main reason why people join that movement IMO.

 

[BenBurch]

Well, I think the TM would exist without us; The Law of The Conservation Of Stupidity ensures that.

But there *is* a class of Internet Troll (like some folks who will go nameless because of the rules here) who exist JUST to be in our face because they see it as striking a blow against The Man.

The key here is to tell them what losers they are with the facts and only the facts. What Suzette Hayden Elgin would call "Leveler Mode". And then be done with them; Allow their threads to die and start our own threads with fresh debunks of positive assertions on their part.

 

[cisco]

I think a lot of it is that they always assume the only information we debunkers have is from the government, and then always assume the government is lying. While always assuming the government is lying is generally a good position to have, it's when evidence that is presented that shows that this time at least the government isn't lying is ignored that the real problems begin.

I think a lot of it comes from a general ignorance of what government is, who it's made up of, how it functions, etc. A LOT of people I grew up with think holding ANY position in government is an unattainable goal for middle and lower class people. They think government is a monolithic entity made up of "them"*, who inherit their positions and hold them for life. That's slight hyperbole but it's really not far off.

I recently read a book called The Genius of America that talked about this a little bit. They said learning about the constitution and government was a big part of public education up until a few decades ago when they started to scale it back in order to teach more "practical" things like business. We should definitely require 4 years of government/politics in high school IMO. My high school only required 1.


*I've had more than a few blue-collar types who have postulated to me, in all sincerity, that all elected officials are necessarily a seperate race from humans and/or one must be clinically psychopathic in order to win an election.

 

[twinstead]

I think a lot of it comes from a general ignorance of what government is, who it's made up of, how it functions, etc. A LOT of people I grew up with think holding ANY position in government is an unattainable goal for middle and lower class people. They think government is a monolithic entity made up of "them"*, who inherit their positions and hold them for life. That's slight hyperbole but it's really not far off.

I recently read a book called The Genius of America that talked about this a little bit. They said learning about the constitution and government was a big part of public education up until a few decades ago when they started to scale it back in order to teach more "practical" things like business. We should definitely require 4 years of government/politics in high school IMO. My high school only required 1.

Yes. I hadn't thought about it, but xenophobia is probably a very real reason for pathological mistrust of government.

 

[GreNME]

I wonder if it would be possible to conduct a test...

It seems that since Gravy has left this particular arena- the TM seems to have sizzled out a lot (more). I wonder what would happen if all or most of us simply stepped away for a month...

Granted, in the beginning- that would have been a bad strategy, but it sure seems like now is a good opportunity to walk away and see what happens. Maybe it's just a big pendulum, and we'll all have to come back in a couple years anyway.

Bears repeating.

 

[Tweeter]

You guys give yourselves way, way to much credit. There are literally hundreds of 911 sites not to mention the youtubers that never heard or care about gravy and his minions. The thread should be titled "Does the truth movement keep us debunkers alive?

 

[Pardalis]

The thread should be titled "Does the truth movement keep us debunkers alive?

That doesn't really make sense.

Did you take a look at what JREF is about? There's alot of things to be debunked out there, creationism, homeopathy, psychics, other CTs. 9/11 CTs is the icing on the cake, the comedy part.

 

[Par]

There are literally hundreds of 911 sites not to mention the youtubers...

So, “the truth is out there!”

 

[twinstead]

You guys give yourselves way, way to much credit. There are literally hundreds of 911 sites not to mention the youtubers that never heard or care about gravy and his minions. The thread should be titled "Does the truth movement keep us debunkers alive?

Yea. So? What's your point? Most 911 sites simply parrot a very few sites that have orginal arguments. It's surprising how the same 'facts' can be restated in so many different ways on so many websites.

And YouTube? LOL. Yea. Pure, unadulterated science, huh?

 

[JHarrow]

You guys give yourselves way, way to much credit. There are literally hundreds of 911 sites not to mention the youtubers that never heard or care about gravy and his minions. The thread should be titled "Does the truth movement keep us debunkers alive?

I totally agree.

It's amusing to see people completely deluding themselves that they are making a difference.

 

[T.A.M.]

hundreds of sites, dozens of videos, 200 scientists, 200 engineers, 150 military men, and yet what...what after 6 years?

less than 1000 attend the rally at GZ, a couple of frivilous law suits?

In terms of promotion and moving forward on a cause, the TM has to be the worst, most ineffective group of protesters on the planet.

TAM