Are debunkers all that keep the "truth movement" alive?

[SezMe]

The 9/11 conspiracist movement is dead.

I wish you were right but I fear it is not true. Sure, on critical thinking fora they have been destroyed. But outside our little world it's a different story.

This story says:

More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.

Yes, it is dated 08/01/2006 but I have no reason to think that a large shift in public opinion has ocurred in the interim.

Yes, scientifically, logically and "engineeringly" they are dead meat. But not in the marketplace of mainstream public opinion.

 

[JHarrow]

I wish you were right but I fear it is not true. Sure, on critical thinking fora they have been destroyed. But outside our little world it's a different story.

This story says:



Yes, it is dated 08/01/2006 but I have no reason to think that a large shift in public opinion has ocurred in the interim.

Yes, scientifically, logically and "engineeringly" they are dead meat. But not in the marketplace of mainstream public opinion.

That's good to hear.

 

[jhunter1163]

I wish you were right but I fear it is not true. Sure, on critical thinking fora they have been destroyed. But outside our little world it's a different story.

This story says:



Yes, it is dated 08/01/2006 but I have no reason to think that a large shift in public opinion has ocurred in the interim.

Yes, scientifically, logically and "engineeringly" they are dead meat. But not in the marketplace of mainstream public opinion.

I disagree. Since 8/1/06 we've had the South Park episode, the destruction in Rolling Stone, Bill Maher's flaming of Truthers, the History Channel show, and so on. They got just enough attention after the fifth anniversary to get the mainstream media to look at them a little bit, and they were quickly exposed as loons. If a third of people believe this, why doesn't anyone I know believe it? Do I hang around with particularly smart people?

(Well, I do post here, so maybe I do hang around with particularly smart people...)

 

[SezMe]

I disagree. Since 8/1/06 we've had the South Park episode, the destruction in Rolling Stone, Bill Maher's flaming of Truthers, the History Channel show, and so on. They got just enough attention after the fifth anniversary to get the mainstream media to look at them a little bit, and they were quickly exposed as loons. If a third of people believe this, why doesn't anyone I know believe it? Do I hang around with particularly smart people?

(Well, I do post here, so maybe I do hang around with particularly smart people...)

A Zogby poll released on September 6, 2007:

As America nears the sixth anniversary of the world-churning events of September 11, 2001, a new Zogby International poll finds a majority of Americans still await a Congressional investigation of President Bush' and Vice President Cheney's actions before, during and after the 9/11 attacks. Over 30% also believe Bush and/or Cheney should be immediately impeached by the House of Representatives.

The 911truth.org–sponsored poll also found that over two-thirds of Americans say the 9/11 Commission should have investigated the still unexplained collapse of the 47-story World Trade Center Building 7 at 5:20 p.m. on September 11, 2001.

Yes, I know who sponsored it.

Another poll released on Friday, November 23, 2007:

Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings, according to a Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll.

A national survey of 811 adult residents of the United States conducted by Scripps and Ohio University found that more than a third believe in a broad smorgasbord of conspiracy theories including the attacks, international plots to rig oil prices, the plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy in 1963 and the government's knowledge of intelligent life from other worlds.

Yes, I see the other woo but I think that makes my point. Lots of people are nuts and that nuttiness includes 911. But the point is that these are relatively recent polls that, as such, meet your objections.

A couple of points:
First, I am not supporting JHarrow here. He's a nutter and a piece of evidence to support the title of this thread.

Second, I am really concerned about the hold that 911 CTs have on the general public. I have provided evidence that, I think, supports my concerns.

The Doc asserted that "The 9/11 conspiracist movement is dead." As I said, I wish this were true but I don't think it is. You, jhunter, cite a series of events that you think apparently imply it is dead. Those events are popular media events that may have influenced you but, for example, what percentage of the population even watch Maher much less are substantially influenced by him.

So why don't you know anybody who believes [CT]? For the very reason that you cite. Oh, and by the way, citing such anecdotal evidence would be laughed at should a twoofer engage in the practice.

So, The Doc made a claim and you appear to support it. In classic skeptic practice, "your claim, you support it with evidence". The claim is simple and clear, "The 9/11 conspiracist movement is dead." I hope you can.

 

[chillzero]

For crying out loud people.

PLEASE stay on topic, and stop allowing yourselves to be derailed, particularly into this bickering. Moving another batch of posts to AAH.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[jhunter1163]

SezMe:

First point, I am not now and never have been a supporter of the Truth movement. The things that I cited were instances of the Truth movement moving into the popular culture and being summarily and thoroughly trashed.

I don't disagree that woo is alive and well in the USA; the OP, though, referred to 9/11 woo, which appears to be declining rapidly. Truther attendance at the sixth anniversary at Ground Zero was about half that of the fifth, and Alexa numbers show that traffic at the most popular truther sites is off significantly.

There will always be, I'm sure, a hard core of nutters who will subscribe to the 9/11 conspiracy theories, just as there is a hard core of JFK hoax believers and moon hoax believers (and they may well be the same people). My contention, though, was (and remains) that the less hardcore believers have for the most part drifted away.

 

[CHF]

I wish you were right but I fear it is not true. Sure, on critical thinking fora they have been destroyed. But outside our little world it's a different story.

This story says:

Yes, it is dated 08/01/2006 but I have no reason to think that a large shift in public opinion has ocurred in the interim.

Yes, scientifically, logically and "engineeringly" they are dead meat. But not in the marketplace of mainstream public opinion.

I'm aware of only two polls that asked the question directly: "Were the WTC towers taken down via controlled demolition?"

Both of them - one of which was commissioned by the TM - showed about 5% answering YES.

But none of that really matters. The most important measure of any movement is its ability to organize and bring about change.

On both fronts, the TM has been a complete failure.

They can't agree on a story, can't make a dent in politics, can't get more than a dozen people to most of their "rallies" and spend most of their time these days heckling people or trolling on-line debunker sites.

That, quite simply, is a movement with a very bleak future.

 

[Pookster]

I'm also very curious why so many Truthers are obsessed with Gravy.

Is Gravy stopping them from pursuing a new investigation?

Is Gravy stopping them from presenting their smoking-gun evidence to the media?

Is Gravy stopping them from picketing?

Is Gravy stopping them from starting a revolution?

He's only one man, and he hasn't done anything but argue against you. Grow some balls, Truthers.

Gravy is Batman. Everyone knows you have to defeat Batman before you can take over Gotham. Sheesh.

 

[Totovader]

I wonder if it would be possible to conduct a test...

It seems that since Gravy has left this particular arena- the TM seems to have sizzled out a lot (more). I wonder what would happen if all or most of us simply stepped away for a month...

Granted, in the beginning- that would have been a bad strategy, but it sure seems like now is a good opportunity to walk away and see what happens. Maybe it's just a big pendulum, and we'll all have to come back in a couple years anyway.

 

[Drudgewire]

There will always be, I'm sure, a hard core of nutters who will subscribe to the 9/11 conspiracy theories, just as there is a hard core of JFK hoax believers and moon hoax believers (and they may well be the same people). My contention, though, was (and remains) that the less hardcore believers have for the most part drifted away.

This is strictly opinion and conjecture but it seems to me the difference between the previous CTs and 9/11 is the availability of information, and as such there's a much more fundamental dishonesty at the base of this one than the older ones.

Moon hoax believers and JFK assassination believers spent so long with misinformation festering because in the beginning they never had a forum to challenge what they construed as evidence. Twoofers don't have that excuse. They've been presented with honest to goodness evidence that contradicts their phony conjecture from day one of their movement's existence, and make the conscious decision to ignore it.

It's less of a real belief than a chance to dissociate themselves from society by patting themselves on the back for not being "sheep," and celebrate their frustrations against our political system by imagining those in charge as science fiction villians... which is easy to do when their opinions are based on fiction.

Does our continued acknowledgement of their existence help to fuel them? Of course. But it also helps provide a buffer between those who don't want to face reality and those who might have otherwise been influenced by their nonsense... which is why they're quickly declining in size, and will continue to do so, rather than growing and reaching new suckers. So we may keep them alive, but we keep them contained... which is not a bad thing.

That's my two cents anyway. vv

 

[twinstead]

I think he means that the TM dream up some nonsense, post it here and the posters here destroy it. Totally. Every time. We are their filter.This is a process of refinement. So far nothing put into the top of the JREF filter has dribbled out the bottom, but JHarrow is still pumping it in hoping that something will make it through.

Exactly. Here is where they hone their tactics. This is where they spray everything, including the kitchen sink, just to hope that some of it actually might not be ludicrous.

Where the tactics come in is they learn how to prolong the debate of even the ludicrous things by arguing about irrelevant crap and semantics to try to make it appear as though there's an actual debate going on instead of what is really happening.

This is a show for the fence sitters. What most of these truthers don't realize is that the fence sitters aren't as stupid as they think they are. So, by word of mouth they are sending more people into the world who ALSO think they are full of it.

 

[DavidJames]

This is strictly opinion and conjecture but it seems to me the difference between the previous CTs and 9/11 is the availability of information, and as such there's a much more fundamental dishonesty at the base of this one than the older ones.

I would also add the political element in this one compared to the moon hoax and even JFK. By political I'm not referring just to the left/right issue, but the general mistrust and even hatred of government in general.

 

[Drudgewire]

I would also add the political element in this one compared to the moon hoax and even JFK. By political I'm not referring just to the left/right issue, but the general mistrust and even hatred of government in general.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that.

Oh wait, I did.

It's less of a real belief than a chance to dissociate themselves from society by patting themselves on the back for not being "sheep," and celebrate their frustrations against our political system by imagining those in charge as science fiction villians... which is easy to do when their opinions are based on fiction.

 

[twinstead]

I would also add the political element in this one compared to the moon hoax and even JFK. By political I'm not referring just to the left/right issue, but the general mistrust and even hatred of government in general.

I don't know. I tend to see very many ideological similarities between 911 deniers and other CTs, specifically the dreaded Apollo Hoax Belivers.

I think a lot of it is that they always assume the only information we debunkers have is from the government, and then always assume the government is lying. While always assuming the government is lying is generally a good position to have, it's when evidence that is presented that shows that this time at least the government isn't lying is ignored that the real problems begin.

 

[DavidJames]

Yeah, I should have mentioned that.

Oh wait, I did.

yeah, but not in the piece I quoted .

 

[Dave Rogers]

These days it honestly seems that way.

Maybe we are, but is that a bad thing? Aren't medical scientists all that keep the smallpox virus alive, and for much the same reasons?

Dave

 

[Cuddles]

Second, I am really concerned about the hold that 911 CTs have on the general public. I have provided evidence that, I think, supports my concerns.

I think there's an important people between "people who believe something" and "movement". The truth movement can only really be said to consist of people who actively argue in favour of 9/11 conspiracies. Like any other topic, conspiracy related or not, there are probably a lot more people who think there might be something to it, but just don't care enough to ever do anything. Just think of things like black rights or gay rights. Most people are supportive of the idea, but very few actually go out and do something. A movement isn't made up of all those at home who don't even think about it until someone specifically asks them a question, it's made up of the people who are actively involved with trying to promote an idea.

When looked at like this, the truth movement essentially doesn't exist anymore. There are a few people desperately trying to get a little bit more money and fame, and a few more arguing on internet forums. None of them are really trying to actually promote a cause. The fact that some people, or even a large number of people, believe something does not mean there is a movement.

In addition, I would say that your own evidence supports this. You acknowledge all the other woo in the polls, but you don't recognise how important this it. The people who support 9/11 woo support all kinds of nonsense. Debunking a small part of that nonsense isn't going to make them any less wooish. If someone believes in aliens, bigfoot and global banking conspiracies, why worry that they also believe in another conspiracy? in addition, they obviously don't really take their beliefs seriously. 30% of Americans believe in a global banking conspiracy, yet pretty much 100% of them use banks. Why assume they take 9/11 any more seriously. It's just another excuse for them to say "Ooo yes, aren't things terrible." and then get on with their lives as if nothing was wrong.

The truth movement is dead not just because they've been reduced to repetitive whining over the internet, it's dead because even those who might believe parts of their story just don't care.

 

[T.A.M.]

I do not know if it has been mentioned, but I think the TM is bottoming out from an "interest" pov due to America having their minds on other things...namely getting Bush out, and someone else in.

When was the last time there was any MAJOR news about Bush or Cheney. When was the last time there was an article in the media about the TM?

All of the publics attention is either on day to day life, or the Primaries.

The trouble for the TM, is that this distraction from them will not end until November, and then Bush et al will be gone, and noone in the general public will GIVE A ****.

TAM

 

[Drudgewire]

I think a lot of it is that they always assume the only information we debunkers have is from the government, and then always assume the government is lying. While always assuming the government is lying is generally a good position to have, it's when evidence that is presented that shows that this time at least the government isn't lying is ignored that the real problems begin.

I'll go along with all of that except the first part. They KNOW there's a lot more out there than simply the gummit position, they simply choose to lump any outside evidence together as "disinformation" regardless of its legitimacy because it's the only way to nurture their fantasy.

yeah, but not in the piece I quoted .

Touché.

 

[R.Mackey]

Regarding the OP, you folks may recall I ran a poll not long ago asking about the staleness of their information. The updated figures are consistent with the preliminary analysis. Since then, JHarrow has added his vote to the "within a week or so" bin, but given that he has perhaps the highest lie-per-post ratio of anyone ever to appear here and has offered no new information whatsoever, this vote if anything should be seen as confirming that there's nothing new...

Again, my conclusion was that a small group centered around Richard Gage and Dr. Jones will probably soldier on without us. Perhaps they're trying to make it pay, perhaps it's personal, I don't know. So I would disagree with the OP. However, apart from them, the data suggest that the Truth Movement is totally on the rocks.