Are atheists inevitably pessimists?

[David Mo]

More batcrap crazy nonsense.

Rita Hayworth was a real life human being. Born Margarita Carmen Cansino she appeared in 66 movies. Gilda is a must see for any cinephile. There is nothing mythical about her.

Spiderman is a fictional character as is EVERY GOD ever posited as best we can tell. Can you prove the existence of your 'supergod". I bet my ass you can't. I have yet to see credible evidence of any god.

Christians and Jews can no more prove the existence of their god Yahweh than Muslims can prove Allah or Norwegians can prove Wotan and Thor.

But go ahead, feel free to provide evidence of your imaginary friend. I'm waiting.

You're delirious. You attribute to me statements that I have explicitly denied. Where did I say that God really exists? I have just written that Rita Hayworth, Spiderman and God have in common that they are illusory entities. (I am not going to explain to you why the myth of Rita Hayworth exists in the form of Gilda and not Miss Cansino, because that would distract us from the subject).

What I have told you several times is that the myth of God contains properties that other myths do not have. Not God, who is a fictitious entity, but his myth. You must agree with this, because you don't discuss it.

What surprises me most is that you try to deny one of the defining categories of the Christian God and the like: that he is represented as a Superfather. This is commonly admitted. I get the impression that you want to criticize what I say and you don't know how to do it.

 

[David Mo]

Sounds like a convenient fail-safe backup plan.

It's just that I don't presume to know all the Christian sects in this world. Perhaps there is some strange sect that does not consider God the Father as a father. If you know of any, you can inform me.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I'm not giving a universal definition of God. I am not referring to the religion of the Trobriand Islands or the animism of Cameroon. I am referring to the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin. As for all the Christians I know, be they sects, churches or private individuals, they believe in a God like the one I have described with four or five main features. If there is anyone who does not believe in that, you tell us. And if it is to be excluded from my argument, I will exclude it.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

This is not an answer to my post, and simply tacking my post on to a response to another point from someone else is, frankly, somewhat disrespectful.
Please note also that I explicitly referred to "the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin". I have highlighted them in my post, in case you missed them:

Actually, many of the gods people have worshipped through the ages have very much cared about what people thought of them. 'The Lord your God is a jealous God', for example, who needs endless grovelling, praise and sacrifices to keep him happy. Greek and Roman mythology is full of examples of the gods getting in a huff because of some real or perceived slight from a mortal. Muslims grovel 5 times a day, and will go to hell if they don't.
If the god or gods were content to 'let mortals take care of mortals' affairs', it would be a relief for everyone. Instead, there is constant strife about which god to appease, and how to do it.

Your claim that the gods are indifferent to us is patently false. I should add that your claim that all they require is submission is also false (Job), and the records of all of these supposed deities show they are neither loving, just, nor even all male.

 

[Robin]

I have never understood the existential angst thing, and never understood the craving for meaning.

What exactly is the problem if the universe has no meaning or if life has no meaning?

In what way is a God created universe more meaningful?

 

[David Mo]

This is not an answer to my post, and simply tacking my post on to a response to another point from someone else is, frankly, somewhat disrespectful.
Please note also that I explicitly referred to "the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin". I have highlighted them in my post, in case you missed them:


Your claim that the gods are indifferent to us is patently false. I should add that your claim that all they require is submission is also false (Job), and the records of all of these supposed deities show they are neither loving, just, nor even all male.

You took an irony to the letter. I said that a participant in this forum seemed to believe that he was a god (irony!) and I asked him to stop believing that he was a god (irony!). You took it literally and believed that I said that gods are indifferent to humans. A misinterpretation on your part. The absent god is a myth of polytheistic religions very different from Judeo-Christianity and Islamism which are the ones I have in mind especially. As I said.

You underline your mention of the Greek gods of antiquity. I have already said that I am interested in the conflict that occurs in disbelief at the present time. Atheism in Hellenic times was lived differently than today. Even the word meant something else.

Certainly, being jealous was a characteristic of the patriarch (father) in Jewish culture. I don't know why you underline it. It is totally consistent with the concept of God as a Superfather.

I think you have a pretty confused idea of what I'm talking about. Therefore your arguments lose their way.

 

[David Mo]

I have never understood the existential angst thing, and never understood the craving for meaning.

What exactly is the problem if the universe has no meaning or if life has no meaning?

In what way is a God created universe more meaningful?

God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.

The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own. This meaning can be consciously oriented or he can let life push him back and forth like a puppet. Anguish is the consistent response to the question, "What do I live for?" It is the same as total responsibility and uncertainty.

 

[acbytesla]

You're delirious. You attribute to me statements that I have explicitly denied. Where did I say that God really exists? I have just written that Rita Hayworth, Spiderman and God have in common that they are illusory entities. (I am not going to explain to you why the myth of Rita Hayworth exists in the form of Gilda and not Miss Cansino, because that would distract us from the subject).

What I have told you several times is that the myth of God contains properties that other myths do not have. Not God, who is a fictitious entity, but his myth. You must agree with this, because you don't discuss it.

What surprises me most is that you try to deny one of the defining categories of the Christian God and the like: that he is represented as a Superfather. This is commonly admitted. I get the impression that you want to criticize what I say and you don't know how to do it.

You keep blaming me and everyone else for misunderstanding you. Maybe you should turn that finger around. Your posts are a morass of babble. Why not try to make your posts clear to others and not just to yourself?

I see NO difference between one mythical being and another. Because from my perspective they are all first and foremost man-made fictional characters and not believing in one is EXACTLY like not believing in another. So it really surprised me when you added a non-mythical demonstrably real person into the discussion. As if that demonstrated something.

So what defining characteristic am I denying? Omniscient? Omnipotent? Omnipresent? Anthropomorphic? Unfalsifiable? It makes no difference to me how a theist defines their god because as best as I can tell they are not real.

 

[Darat]

God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.

The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own. This meaning can be consciously oriented or he can let life push him back and forth like a puppet. Anguish is the consistent response to the question, "What do I live for?" It is the same as total responsibility and uncertainty.

Have you ever considered some people may be different to you?

 

[Steve]

Have you ever considered some people may be different to you?

I think it more likely that all people are quite different to him.

 

[Steve]

God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.

The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own. This meaning can be consciously oriented or he can let life push him back and forth like a puppet. Anguish is the consistent response to the question, "What do I live for?" It is the same as total responsibility and uncertainty.

This is completely wrong. Atheists understand that life has no inherent meaning. No anguish required. Just accept and get on with it.

I can see that your life must be hellish if you spend your time searching for meaning that does not exist.

 

[David Mo]

Y
I see NO difference between one mythical being and another. Because from my perspective they are all first and foremost man-made fictional characters and not believing in one is EXACTLY like not believing in another. So it really surprised me when you added a non-mythical demonstrably real person into the discussion. As if that demonstrated something.

So what defining characteristic am I denying? Omniscient? Omnipotent? Omnipresent? Anthropomorphic? Unfalsifiable? It makes no difference to me how a theist defines their god because as best as I can tell they are not real.

Differences between God and Spiderman (let's leave Rita Hayworth for the moment):

The fundamental differences for our discussion have been summarized in the image of the Superfather.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected to the eternal life, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

The idea of the Superfather is that of a superior being who has the power to protect those who believe in him and offer a supreme reward or punishment.The image of a Superfather are the typical characteristics of the religions that are dominant in European and assimilated societies.

No one who has reached the age of reason (normal people) believes that Spiderman exists. Obviously no one can believe that Spiderman is a Superfather to him if he does not believe that he exists.

I hope the highlights help you understand what you don't understand.

 

[David Mo]

Have you ever considered some people may be different to you?

What makes you think that's not so?

 

[David Mo]

[/HILITE]

This is completely wrong. Atheists understand that life has no inherent meaning. No anguish required. Just accept and get on with it.

I can see that your life must be hellish if you spend your time searching for meaning that does not exist.

Don't you have a project for your life? Are you defending the virtue of resignation or that everything is fine?

When you discover that life has no meaning an alternative is presented: either indifference or giving the one you choose.
Indifference seems to me to be an essentially inhuman attitude.

 

[Robin]

What makes you think that's not so?

Your language suggests you feel you are saying things which apply to unbelievers in general.

 

[Robin]

God gives meaning to the life of the believer because he thinks that if he follows His commands he will gain eternal life. Paradise is the meaning of existence for him.

That only pushes the question further down the track. Why does an eternal existence with God have meaning?

Is meaning proportional to the length of the existence and the power of your friends?

The unbeliever must seek meaning on his own.

If the unbeliever wishes to seek meaning at all. Some of us are OK with life having no meanings.

I don't even know what it means to say life has a meaning.

And if we do wish to seek meaning we don't have to do it alone.

There are many around us with whom we can seek meaning.

 

[David Mo]

Your language suggests you feel you are saying things which apply to unbelievers in general.

I think there's a certain way of being an atheist that's inconsistent. On that I disagree with several people in this forum. Is there a problem with us discussing this? Am I obliged to agree with them or say that anything goes?

 

[David Mo]

That only pushes the question further down the track. Why does an eternal existence with God have meaning?

Is meaning proportional to the length of the existence and the power of your friends?



If the unbeliever wishes to seek meaning at all. Some of us are OK with life having no meanings.

I don't even know what it means to say life has a meaning.

And if we do wish to seek meaning we don't have to do it alone.

There are many around us with whom we can seek meaning.

Life has not a meaning. My life needs a meaning. And the meaning that I give to my life is the meaning of life that I create by means of my personal project of life. .
To give a meaning to life doesn't means nothing supernatural.

 

[Robin]

I think there's a certain way of being an atheist that's inconsistent. On that I disagree with several people in this forum. Is there a problem with us discussing this? Am I obliged to agree with them or say that anything goes?

Who said there is a problem discussing it?

Just don't tell other atheists what to feel about meaning, which is what you come across as saying.

And what, exactly is the inconsistency you see?

 

[Robin]

Life has not a meaning. My life needs a meaning. And the meaning that I give to my life is the meaning of life that I create by means of my personal project of life. .

To give a meaning to life doesn't means nothing supernatural.

That is fine.

For me I am good with no meaning.

I don't know what it means to say that life has meaning. I don't see how having a project for my life would provide meaning.

 

[David Mo]

Who said there is a problem discussing it?

Just don't tell other atheists what to feel about meaning, which is what you come across as saying.

And what, exactly is the inconsistency you see?

That is fine.

For me I am good with no meaning.

I don't know what it means to say that life has meaning. I don't see how having a project for my life would provide meaning.

Why can't I tell an atheist that he's making a mistake? Don't you think Christians make a mistake about this and that? Don't you say it to them? Why can't I tell an atheist? Because I'm an atheist? Is atheism a monolithic dogma?
I don't understand.

I think they are inconsistent because you can't abandon --or refuse-- a religious project and think you can live without an alternative project. And because the atheistic project implies certain theoretical and vital problems that some atheists don't want to ask themselves. (I am speaking of a vital project).

The meaning of life and the project of life are the same thing. A goal towards which the person is heading, consciously or unconsciously, and which conditions particular goals.