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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion - continuation thread

Yeah it's been well reported for many years and the audio is also there to listen to. It's not music lol.

Surprisingly, there is a TV programme making something of it, and all of a sudden there is this massive amount of internet traffic about it...
 
So I received this today:

http://aulis.com/apollo11saturn_v.htm

The basic thrust is that after doing some mathematics on a film of the Apollo 11 launch that the rocket wasn't going fast enough and wasn't at the same altitude that NASA claims therefore it must have crashed into the Atlantic. It's a fairly quick read.

I've searched for an analysis of the argument for the last hour but no-one seems to have dealt directly with it. As well Popov doesn't seem to have done much other than a book and this entry, according to all I could dig up.

I know something is in error with the basic assumptions of the argument but I just can't put my finger on it.
 
So I received this today:

http://aulis.com/apollo11saturn_v.htm

The basic thrust is that after doing some mathematics on a film of the Apollo 11 launch that the rocket wasn't going fast enough and wasn't at the same altitude that NASA claims therefore it must have crashed into the Atlantic. It's a fairly quick read.

I've searched for an analysis of the argument for the last hour but no-one seems to have dealt directly with it. As well Popov doesn't seem to have done much other than a book and this entry, according to all I could dig up.

I know something is in error with the basic assumptions of the argument but I just can't put my finger on it.
Gosh, that's an old one. ISTR that there were shenanigans with the measurements.

As I recall, Aulis borked the frame rate and the measurement of the Saturn V in a very obvious way. Obvious if one takes the time to actually check, but they rely on the fact that most will not.

In fact it was so badly borked that it could only have been intentional deception.
 
...

I know something is in error with the basic assumptions of the argument but I just can't put my finger on it.


Basic CT Blunder #37:
Pretending to understand film, video and frame rates.
(AKA "Doing a Jack White")

The clock on the video can't be used to measure or prove anything.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the original film or its frame-rate.
It is a timer being shown on playback of a VHS recording.
It isn't burned into the recording, nor is it a time code.

Basic CT Blunder #06:
To measure the velocity of the rocket, first for six different frames as on Fig.7, the rocket shadow l was measured in mm on the computer screen. An average value of l = (39 ± 1.5) mm was calculated.
Needs no explanation.

I'm sure a clever person will look at the equations.
But remember...

Basic CT Blunder #02:
Some people actually understand maths.
 
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It's a fairly standard 'decide on the conclusion then bend the facts to fit' approach.

It was discussed at Apollohoax here:

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=776.0

Aulis have a bit of a thing for producing imaginary Russian scientists of whom no trace can be found at their supposed alma maters and no record of their alleged research can be found anywhere, and who have applied questionable research methods to fields far removed from the claim of expertise that gives them the superficial gloss of authority.

Their pants are on fire.
 
It's a fairly standard 'decide on the conclusion then bend the facts to fit' approach.

It was discussed at Apollohoax here:

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=776.0

Aulis have a bit of a thing for producing imaginary Russian scientists of whom no trace can be found at their supposed alma maters and no record of their alleged research can be found anywhere, and who have applied questionable research methods to fields far removed from the claim of expertise that gives them the superficial gloss of authority.

Their pants are on fire.


verisimilitude redux eh!
 
Basic CT Blunder #37:
Pretending to understand film, video and frame rates.
(AKA "Doing a Jack White")

The clock on the video can't be used to measure or prove anything.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the original film or its frame-rate.
It is a timer being shown on playback of a VHS recording.
It isn't burned into the recording, nor is it a time code.


Transcribing VHS/VHSC/8mm/Hi8/miniDV tapes onto DVD is part of what I do for a living, so I can speak to this with some authority. For the record, I use an ex-TVNZ Panasonic AG-7650-P commercial grade VHS/S-VHS tape deck to a DataVideo DN-400 HDD recorder (also ex broadcast), and then the resulting video files are sent to a PC for burning to a DVD.

First Mistake this claimant has made
Any tape of the Apollo Launches, at least the early ones, will have been filmed on silver halide 8mm or 16mm film and transferred to VHS tape. This process is fraught with potential errors. Film projectors and telecines of the era were mechanically timed, and the adjustment was usually a tension lever or an adjustment screw. Nominally, the frame rate for 8mm (one row of sprocket holes) is about 16 f/s, Super 8 (two rows of sprocket holes) is about 18 f/s but there is no guarantee that whoever transferred this had the projector frame rate set correctly. It was quite common to operate projectors like these at slightly above nominal frame rate to avoid "frame flicker". 16mm was run at 24 f/s so flicker would not normally be a problem.

However, worn sprocket holes, worn belts, motors and mechanical parts in the projector itself and a problem called "gate weave" can introduce timing errors. In fact, when people talk about a film running at "24 frames per second" that does not necessarily mean that each frame is displayed at 1/24th of a second intervals. The timing between frames can vary as much as 5%, and most viewers wont notice.

Second mistake claimant has made
Even assuming that the Film > VHS transfer was made accurately with all the timing as close as possible, there is still the problem of "tape stretch" As a VHS tape is played, rewound, fast forwarded and paused over a number of years it stretches. A time code is encoded on the tape at the time it is recorded, and as the tape stretches, the time code itself is expanded... think of the time code as a series of marks recorded on the tape at one second intervals. VHS tape (in SP mode) runs at 33.3 linear mm per second (mps), so the marks will be at 33.3 mm intervals. A VHS tape can stretch by 15% or more and when that happens, the marks will now be at 38.3 mm intervals, but the tape is still running a 33.3 mps so your 1 second markers take more than 1 second between passes over the playback head. I have seen this for myself; I reset the time counters on both the VHS tape deck and the HDD recorder to 0:00:00 at the beginning, and by the time it has transcribed a 3 hour tape, the differential between the two counters can be as much as 30 minutes!!!

Trying to measure the speed of an object on old VHS tape, especially when the footage has been transferred from film, can yield no usable or meaningful results. Timing errors will be well beyond the ranges of anything you are trying to measure.
 
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It was discussed at Apollohoax here:
http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=776.0
Aulis have a bit of a thing for producing imaginary Russian scientists...

Indeed, and I think we covered all or most of what Smartcooky has (correctly) said about trying to establish a physically accurate time base from most photography. I recall discussing this briefly with Mark Gray.

At Apollohoax we've entertained discussion on perhaps half a dozen "Russian physicists" who have contributed to Aulis. The tl;dr is, as has already been said, not only that they don't seem to have any trail of credentials or publications but also that they uncannily seem to make the same sorts of naive layman's mistakes you see from ordinary hoax theorists.
 
It's a fairly standard 'decide on the conclusion then bend the facts to fit' approach.

It was discussed at Apollohoax here:

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=776.0

Aulis have a bit of a thing for producing imaginary Russian scientists of whom no trace can be found at their supposed alma maters and no record of their alleged research can be found anywhere, and who have applied questionable research methods to fields far removed from the claim of expertise that gives them the superficial gloss of authority.

Their pants are on fire.

Thanks for that link. That's the one I was searching for.
 
Begging the question. And strangely, that's exactly the same argument Patrick made, in exactly the same layman's way. It's what convinced a lot of people here that we weren't really talking to a doctor. A lot of what "Patrick" claimed, allegedly under the guise of medical practice, really didn't ring true to other medical professionals.

While we're on that subject, why is it that when I set it up for Dr. Patrick Teleki, MD, to discuss the matter in person with NASA Ames Research Center flight surgeons, he fled? Did he ever explain to you why he wouldn't share his official medical findings with other licensed physicians?

And what are the chances two brothers would be so equally obsessed with poop-related arguments?
Jay quite possibly two brothers could easily come to the conclusion that the entire Apollo missions were nothing but poop! Poop is the appropriate word, the underlying framework,the essence of this incredible lie fed to the American people and the world! How apropos that poop is so important in this discussion. Any person with 1/2 a brain can see there are too many discrepancies in the entire NASA agenda. Well I guess there are millions of 1/2 brained people in the USA who let this country get so out of hand that Hillary & Trump are leading candidates! These people are not interested in Apollo, poop or anything but what they have been meticulously been trained to focus on money! It is hard to swallow when I think of Apollo. I want to spend my days like my brother battling Jay and Company! Happy belated St, Patrick's Day to you all. Don't you think it is time to rid the USA of all the snakes and their Poop!
 
Begging the question. And strangely, that's exactly the same argument Patrick made, in exactly the same layman's way. >>>And what are the chances two brothers would be so equally obsessed with poop-related arguments.
Jay quite possibly two brothers could easily come to the conclusion that the entire Apollo missions were nothing but poop!
One question addressed.

It's what convinced a lot of people here that we weren't really talking to a doctor. A lot of what "Patrick" claimed, allegedly under the guise of medical practice, really didn't ring true to other medical professionals.

While we're on that subject, why is it that when I set it up for Dr. Patrick Teleki, MD, to discuss the matter in person with NASA Ames Research Center flight surgeons, he fled? Did he ever explain to you why he wouldn't share his official medical findings with other licensed physicians?

No further inquiries addressed.
 
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...
Any person with 1/2 a brain can see there are too many discrepancies in the entire NASA agenda.
...

Paragraphs are your friend.

But yes, you really do need to have lost half a brain to believe in silly conspiracy theories.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that in order to believe NASA is a big poopy-pants liar about going to the Moon, you'd need to have had approximately three-quarters of your brain removed.
 
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Jay quite possibly two brothers could easily come to the conclusion that the entire Apollo missions were nothing but poop!

It doesn't mean they are right

Any person with 1/2 a brain can see

You are substantially overqualified in that regard

there are too many discrepancies in the entire NASA agenda.

And your evidence for this is?


***

Like your brother, your posts both here and at Apollohoax.net have been, and continue to be, entirely evidence-free!!
 
Jay quite possibly two brothers...

Whether it was you, your brother, or both of you, spamming that obsessive, self-contradictory drivel all over the Internet, is really immaterial at this point.

You may have "half a brain", but the claims made by Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/etc., etc. were way more than half brain-dead. Do you intend to rehash them? Or was this latest collection of random neural firings a one-off?
 
Any person with 1/2 a brain can see there are too many discrepancies in the entire NASA agenda.

Your brother tried for years to argue these "discrepancies," resorting to fraudulent impersonations and embarrassing rants. He was given the opportunity to argue his purported area of expertise with noted experts and cowardly refused. In the areas where he had no expertise, he bluffed anyway and simply ignored correction.

As for NASA's "agenda," the Apollo record is a documentary body. How that constitutes an "agenda" is left for you to explain.

I want to spend my days like my brother battling Jay and Company!

Oddly phrased. I'm looking for facts, and ultimately the truth. You seemed to be looking for a battle, regardless of whether you're on the right side of it.
 
Any person with 1/2 a brain can see...

The funny thing is that those half-brainers include virtually every engineer and scientist the world over for the last half century.

Please show us that you have more than half a brain by pointing out a few of these supposed discrepancies.
 
The funny thing is that those half-brainers include virtually every engineer and scientist the world over for the last half century.

Please show us that you have more than half a brain by pointing out a few of these supposed discrepancies.

Well, you know the old saying... if you've half a mind to be a conspiracy theorist, that is all you will ever need!
 

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