Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

[Carrot Flower King]

Biology O level?
We did transects of the foreshore at 3 locations around Skinningrove back in 78 when the steelworks on top of the cliffs was more than just a rolling mill. One at Skinningrove by the jetty and then half a mile along the coast either side.

First year at university (school was in Durham): most of the first year was bringing everyone up to the same level, as folk had done all manner of different A-levels and syllabuses.

I was bored to ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ tears, as this meant I essentially repeated 2 of my A-levels and my AO-level, so by the time we got round to the interesting stuff my motivation had disappeared into a haze of beer (mostly Wards Best, with a seasoning of Stones, Home and Tetleys) and punk rock, with occasional folky sidelines.

Occasionally I'm amazed I got a degree, as I'd all but given up on it.

 

[catsmate]

Look for the lichen...Always look for the lichen...

On the moon?

 

[Carrot Flower King]

On the moon?

Well, what else were those frogmen decontaminating, eh?

Riddle me that!

 

[Reformed Offlian]

On the moon?

The algae forms a symbiotic relationship with the mold growing on the cheese; why do you think the cheese is green?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

How could anyone possibly see those flags without using a non-geopositioned satellite?

To stand on?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

View attachment 74982

I was going to sarcastically suggest robotic semaphore flags on the satellite, since Vixen seems to dismiss the possibilities of radio. It's hilarious that somebody else brought it up first!

 

[Safe-Keeper]

'triple-niner'

Stupid question: what does that even mean in the first place? I Googled both variations of triple-niner and 999er and came up with nothing. Is it just a term she made up or does it actually mean something?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Stupid question: what does that even mean in the first place? I Googled both variations of triple-niner and 999er and came up with nothing. Is it just a term she made up or does it actually mean something?

I think the idea is that people like Vixen who are in the ninety-nine-point-ninth percentile are too smart for anything they say to make sense to anybody else. Because poor communication skills are a hallmark of superior intelligence.

 

[Pixel42]

All the IQ points in the world cannot compensate for wilful ignorance.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

All the IQ points in the world cannot compensate for wilful ignorance.

Who needs knowledge when you have abstract concepts?

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Who needs knowledge when you have abstract concepts?

For some very loose definitions of "abstract" and "concept"...

 

[SpitfireIX]

If as we are told you know the difference between your watch time and GMT then you already know how far West of London you are, so instead of pissing around for days you should be sailing towards the nearest land. If you really have no clue how far North you are, stretch out your arm and use your fist to measure the number of hands breadth from the horizon to the noon sun. That will get you within a few degrees which is all you need.

I strongly suspect that Vixen is laboring under the misapprehension that in 1887, like today, one could determine GMT from local time merely by adding or subtracting a whole number of hours (or, rarely, a whole number of hours plus 30 minutes), when in fact that was practically never true.

 

[steenkh]

I strongly suspect that Vixen is laboring under the misapprehension that in 1887, like today, one could determine GMT from local time merely by adding or subtracting a whole number of hours (or, rarely, a whole number of hours plus 30 minutes), when in fact that was practically never true.

I wonder what time zone the pocket watch was set to in the first place?

 

[Andy_Ross]

I refer novices this nice basic manual for using a Sextant.
It came with a Davis brand Sextant and goes through fixing a position with a sun shot.

https://michaelcarver6048518.files.wordpress.com/2019/06/your-position-with-a-sextant-.pdf

 

[P.J. Denyer]

For some very loose definitions of "abstract" and "concept"...

Perhaps the latter should have been 'conceit'?

 

[JesseCuster]

Correct re Exercise 2. Herewith, Exercise 3. Consider the following:

It is 1887*. You are adrift in a boat in the middle of the sea or ocean, with lapping waves and no sign of land anywhere you look. You had to abandon ship a couple of days before and now food and drink stock is beginning to run out. How on Earth** do you position yourself? Thankfully, your companion, Kimo Säpi***, is now stirring and when he awakes he discovers an old tool box. He fumbles around it and finds a simple instrument. Within fifteen minutes or so, he is able to tell you exactly what latitude you are on. Your trusted friend then spots your pocket watch hanging from your waistcoat (for you are Victorian). He asks if you know how to calculate G.M.T. from the current time on your pocket watch. Happenstance, you do, indeed! So after a few minutes, Kimo tells you what the longitude is, where you are at. How can it be?!

1. Question 1: Describe what was that simple instrument Kimo Säpi likely used to position you, with reference to the natural elements, such as planets or stars - including the Sun and Moon, if appropriate - in relation to the horizon as far as the eye can see.
2. Question 2: Explain how your trusted friend managed to position your longitude location just from knowing the current time at G.M.T.
3. Question 3: Kimo Säpi tells you that your coordinates are Latitude N 51° 07.6' 23.2" Longitude W 009° 43' 36.7", give or take a few nautical miles error margin. You find an old atlas in the aforesaid toolbox. Where is the nearest land and how far away in nautical miles?
4. Question 4: Whilst you are busy, perhaps explain, with reference to natural phenomena (see Q1) how you set about ensuring you are heading in the right direction towards land, without a compass.

Notes

* There is no GPS, smartphone, radio or satellite
** No pun intended
***Sorry, I couldn't help myself

WTF? Did you recently have a head injury or something?

You’re meant to be explaining to me in baby steps the logistics of transmitting TV pictures from the moon to the earth, and how “geopositioning” satellites and the rotation of the earth factors into it.

What has this new nonsense about being stranded at sea in the 19th century with a pocket watch got to do with anything?

 

[JesseCuster]

Correct re Exercise 2. Herewith, Exercise 3. Consider the following:

It is 1887*. You are adrift in a boat in the middle of the sea or ocean, with lapping waves and no sign of land anywhere you look. You had to abandon ship a couple of days before and now food and drink stock is beginning to run out. How on Earth** do you position yourself? Thankfully, your companion, Kimo Säpi***, is now stirring and when he awakes he discovers an old tool box. He fumbles around it and finds a simple instrument. Within fifteen minutes or so, he is able to tell you exactly what latitude you are on. Your trusted friend then spots your pocket watch hanging from your waistcoat (for you are Victorian). He asks if you know how to calculate G.M.T. from the current time on your pocket watch. Happenstance, you do, indeed! So after a few minutes, Kimo tells you what the longitude is, where you are at. How can it be?!

1. Question 1: Describe what was that simple instrument Kimo Säpi likely used to position you, with reference to the natural elements, such as planets or stars - including the Sun and Moon, if appropriate - in relation to the horizon as far as the eye can see.
2. Question 2: Explain how your trusted friend managed to position your longitude location just from knowing the current time at G.M.T.
3. Question 3: Kimo Säpi tells you that your coordinates are Latitude N 51° 07.6' 23.2" Longitude W 009° 43' 36.7", give or take a few nautical miles error margin. You find an old atlas in the aforesaid toolbox. Where is the nearest land and how far away in nautical miles?
4. Question 4: Whilst you are busy, perhaps explain, with reference to natural phenomena (see Q1) how you set about ensuring you are heading in the right direction towards land, without a compass.

Notes

* There is no GPS, smartphone, radio or satellite
** No pun intended
***Sorry, I couldn't help myself

I’ll play along. (Edit: the answer to question 1 is probably a sextant I wonder if Vixen knows that there was an actual sextant on the CSM)

I don’t know the answers. Tell me the answers and explain to me (with baby steps) how it ties into the logistics of “geopositioning” a satellite to transmit TV pictures from the moon to earth in 1969.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Dr. David Groves was important because he stamped his professional authority onto his study.

He'd be even more important if there were more evidence for his doctorate, his professional authority, and his own self. When you find yourself stamping your feet and insisting upon the importance of dubious sources, you should ask why you're using an argument that rests upon such dubious sources.

If you don't know your position and your watch isn't set to GMT you have no way of knowing GMT.

If you set out from England, your watch was probably set to London Time, which officially became GMT in 1880. If you haven't messed with your watch since embarkation, it's probably still set to GMT.

If you set out from the United States, your watch was probably set to some local time, but you would probably also be aware of how many minutes that local time deviates from Eastern Standard Time (adopted 1883), and of the number of hours that separate EST from GMT.

Just taking the piss now.

The sub-second precision was slightly amusing. The Victorian pocket watch that's been free running for several days and is set to local time wherever you used to be all those days ago is among the smaller problems.

If you knew roughly where you were when you abandoned ship, that will be as accurate as anything you can measure with what you find in an old toolbox.

A Waltham Model 57 (introduced in 1857) would probably be accurate to within a couple of minutes per day. If you took to sea a month ago, relying on such a watch for longitude could put you as far as a thousand miles from where you started (which is not where you are now). If you took to sea a mere week ago, you might be able to fix your original longitude to within a couple of hundred miles, which again is pretty useless because that doesn't tell you where you are now.

But you would be able to improve upon that by estimating your current local time from the sun and comparing that to the estimate of GMT you could calculate from a good pocket watch. If you set out only a week ago, that might tell you the longitude of your current position to within a couple of hundred miles.

None of this is leading anywhere. Vixen has no idea what she was trying to say about TV and satellites.

I strongly suspect that Vixen is laboring under the misapprehension that in 1887, like today, one could determine GMT from local time merely by adding or subtracting a whole number of hours (or, rarely, a whole number of hours plus 30 minutes), when in fact that was practically never true.

I wonder what time zone the pocket watch was set to in the first place?

 

[LondonJohn]

Correct re Exercise 2. Herewith, Exercise 3. Consider the following:

It is 1887*. You are adrift in a boat in the middle of the sea or ocean, with lapping waves and no sign of land anywhere you look. You had to abandon ship a couple of days before and now food and drink stock is beginning to run out. How on Earth** do you position yourself? Thankfully, your companion, Kimo Säpi***, is now stirring and when he awakes he discovers an old tool box. He fumbles around it and finds a simple instrument. Within fifteen minutes or so, he is able to tell you exactly what latitude you are on. Your trusted friend then spots your pocket watch hanging from your waistcoat (for you are Victorian). He asks if you know how to calculate G.M.T. from the current time on your pocket watch. Happenstance, you do, indeed! So after a few minutes, Kimo tells you what the longitude is, where you are at. How can it be?!

1. Question 1: Describe what was that simple instrument Kimo Säpi likely used to position you, with reference to the natural elements, such as planets or stars - including the Sun and Moon, if appropriate - in relation to the horizon as far as the eye can see.
2. Question 2: Explain how your trusted friend managed to position your longitude location just from knowing the current time at G.M.T.
3. Question 3: Kimo Säpi tells you that your coordinates are Latitude N 51° 07.6' 23.2" Longitude W 009° 43' 36.7", give or take a few nautical miles error margin. You find an old atlas in the aforesaid toolbox. Where is the nearest land and how far away in nautical miles?
4. Question 4: Whilst you are busy, perhaps explain, with reference to natural phenomena (see Q1) how you set about ensuring you are heading in the right direction towards land, without a compass.

Notes

* There is no GPS, smartphone, radio or satellite
** No pun intended
***Sorry, I couldn't help myself

What the hell does any of this screed - involving the position of the Pole Star and the time of the Sun's position at local midday relative to a known other latitude at a known other local midday - have to do with the issue of transmitting electromagnetic information between a slowly rotating Earth and a far more slowly orbiting Moon which always shows the same face to Earth?

 

[JayUtah]

Personalities aren't relevant.

Agreed. You can't write off the careless errors and dishonest tactics of your sources as mere differences of "personality." Your sources are untrustworthy because they misrepresent the facts. You don't have a competent knowledge the topic they're covering, so you aren't able to see how badly they're lying about it.

Dr. David Groves was important because he stamped his professional authority onto his study.

...which a first-year physics student can immediately see is rubbish. Hence we have to wonder why the author of that study—whoever it may have been—is pretending to be a physics PhD, or conversely why a physics PhD would sign his name to such obvious rubbish. I find the most parsimonious answer to be that "Dr. David Groves, PhD" is a fiction composed by the authors out of bits of existing people.

Otherwise, I don't believe A&W or Percy have any intent to fake anything. Sure, they might be wrong but they are in good faith, albeit they have literature to sell.

"Other that the obvious lies, I don't see why they have a motive to lie."

You've done absolutely nothing to vet your sources and determine whether they are writing in good faith. I've dealt with these people for more than two decades, including all the "behind the scenes" stuff where they take their masks off.

We led you to the conclusion that Marcus Allen was just straight-up lying about whether professional photographers expect to see stars in Apollo photos. But after agreeing to it, you couldn't translate that to the honesty and intent of your sources. You just blue-screen every time you're asked to close the loop. Yes, they have literature to sell. And the kind of literature they choose to sell is based on telling sensational stories that play fast and loose with the facts. Their motive is clearly to make sensational claims that sell their particular literature.