Any really think Obama is a socialist?

[Jeff Corey]

You mean were have some commons around where we can let our sheep graze?
Verblen would be amused.

 

[brodski]

To be 100% pure capitalist, do you have to be a complete Luddite?

Erm, the Luddites were basically part of the trade union movement, I would hardly call them capitalist. and no, they weren't against technology, they were against new models of economic relationships and working practises.


/me puts his finger in his left ear and sings... "no more chant your old rhymes about bold robin hood// His feats I do little admire......"

 

[Thunder]

Anyone who thinks Obama is a Socialist... either:

A. Has NO idea what Socialism really means. Or...

B. Has NO idea what Barack Obama really believes. Or...

C. Is a filthy, hateful, liar.

 

[Cleon]

Erm, the Luddites were basically part of the trade union movement, I would hardly call them capitalist. and no, they weren't against technology, they were against new models of economic relationships and working practises.


* brodski;4552571 puts his finger in his left ear and sings... "no more chant your old rhymes about bold robin hood// His feats I do little admire......"

Two points of objection:

1. I was using the colloquial meaning of Luddite, which is to be against technological development.

2. I was being a wise-ass.

 

[brodski]

Two points of objection:

1. I was using the colloquial meaning of Luddite, which is to be against technological development.

2. I was being a wise-ass.

1. a distinction is usually drawn between Luddites and luddites

2. that's a coincidence...

 

[Foolmewunz]

3BP,

Of course he's a socialist. I mean look at all the hard liner political science types he's appointed at Treasury.

(Hmm? What? Are you sure. The entire bunch comes from Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, et al? You mean the guys who patented junk bonds and shady derivatives? They're now spearheading our socialist development? Oh, I see.)

Hint: Don't listen to campaign rhetoric. Look at who he has running the shop. Watching Geithner yesterday explain to all us dummies how we got into this mess was hysterical. I expected him to give a good ol' boy chuckle, and say, "Yup, we did it."

The bailout is not socialism. It is capitalist charity in its worst form.

 

[Furcifer]

No assumption needed. They're throwing the label out as much as possible, without substantiation, in the hope that the label will "stick."
Ergo, it's reasonable to conclude that it's nothing more than a run-of-the-mill propaganda campaign.

lol, ergo is short for "I don't know and I don't have any proof but...". There's plenty to substantiate the label cumulatively. And until you clearly define the differences between what is happening in the US and what happens here in Canada I think you are hand waving. I'm looking for some examples where I can go "Oh, that seperates Canada from the US, that clearly defines us from them. My mistake" No one really has.

If by "outing" you mean "throwing out a bunch of garbage in justification of something that is refuted by reality," then yes, yes you are.

Obama's own quotes and an explanation from Wiki are garbage? OK. Do you think an explanation from any other source will differ that much in defining Socialism?

lol, you've moved on from spewing garbage to simple lying. Congrats.

I never lied. I said you are lying to yourself.

In any event, it is easy to show with Obama's own quotes and recent policies that he has a much more Socialist viewpoint than Socialist Canada's own Prime Minister, ergo it's reasonable to conclude he's a Socialist.

 

[Furcifer]

The bailout is not socialism. It is capitalist charity in its worst form.

lol, that actually sounds more like it. In the end, from what Cleon has said and the capacity for the US economy to rebound, Capitalism will regain its foothold.

 

[Furcifer]

Anyone who thinks Obama is a Socialist... either:

A. Has NO idea what Socialism really means. Or...

B. Has NO idea what Barack Obama really believes. Or...

C. Is a filthy, hateful, liar.

lol, REPOST!

Anyways, feel free to tell us what Socialism really is, what Obama really believes and identify who hasn't showered.

 

[Euromutt]

And until you clearly define the differences between what is happening in the US and what happens here in Canada I think you are hand waving. I'm looking for some examples where I can go "Oh, that seperates Canada from the US, that clearly defines us from them. My mistake" No one really has.

That's only relevant if Canadian public policy could actually be accurately described as "socialist," which I do not believe for a second that it does. I mean, there's nothing wrong with your logic; it's just that your premise that Canada is indeed a "socialist" country is, not least because it appears to be based on the say-so of some moronic US border agent.

So would it help make things more clear that the same people who refer to Canada as a "socialist" country are probably the same people who refer to Obama as a "socialist," and in both cases, those don't have the first clue what socialism actually entails?

 

[Cleon]

lol, ergo is short for "I don't know and I don't have any proof but...".

lol, no it isn't. It's Latin for "therefore."

You're wrong about an awful lot.

There's plenty to substantiate the label cumulatively.

Not honestly, there isn't.

And until you clearly define the differences between what is happening in the US and what happens here in Canada I think you are hand waving. I'm looking for some examples where I can go "Oh, that seperates Canada from the US, that clearly defines us from them. My mistake" No one really has.

Nor have I attempted to, nor would I really be interested in doing so. I really have no idea why you think I would.

Obama's own quotes and an explanation from Wiki are garbage? OK.

No, your use of them is garbage. There is a distinction.

Do you think an explanation from any other source will differ that much in defining Socialism?

Except that it doesn't define it the way you think it defines it. It really doesn't say what you think it does.

I never lied. I said you are lying to yourself.

Which is, in itself, a lie.

In any event, it is easy to show with Obama's own quotes and recent policies that he has a much more Socialist viewpoint than Socialist Canada's own Prime Minister,

And yet, you seem unable to show any such thing.

Of course, to me it's the equivalent of saying he's much more like a grapefruit than you are. (Point being: Neither one is a socialist.)

ergo it's reasonable to conclude he's a Socialist.

No, it isn't. And you still don't know what "ergo" means.

 

[Furcifer]

That's only relevant if Canadian public policy could actually be accurately described as "socialist," which I do not believe for a second that it does. I mean, there's nothing wrong with your logic; it's just that your premise that Canada is indeed a "socialist" country is, not least because it appears to be based on the say-so of some moronic US border agent.

So would it help make things more clear that the same people who refer to Canada as a "socialist" country are probably the same people who refer to Obama as a "socialist," and in both cases, those don't have the first clue what socialism actually entails?

Well, not so much on a Customs Agent's words as McCain's

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here Euromutt. Canada really isn't a Socialist country, nor is Obama a Socialist.

Whew, glad to shed that stigma.

 

[leftysergeant]

lol, that actually sounds more like it. In the end, from what Cleon has said and the capacity for the US economy to rebound, Capitalism will regain its foothold.

Capitalism always regains its foothold, by fair means or foul. Without a government that ensures that the needs of the working class come before those of investors, it is usually by foul means. Compare the US in the Great Republican Depression to Germany of the same time or Pinochet's Chile.

The New Deal actually worked. Hitler's and Pinochet's ideas did not.

Government has to step in now and then to save capitalism from itself, and i am begining to wonder wheter it is really worth it anyomre.

The monied beneficiaries of the resucitation never seem to appreciate our saving their sorry butts. Reminds me of some heroine addicts I have known.

 

[Furcifer]

lol, no it isn't. It's Latin for "therefore."

You're wrong about an awful lot.

Of course, to me it's the equivalent of saying he's much more like a grapefruit than you are. (Point being: Neither one is a socialist.)

No, it isn't. And you still don't know what "ergo" means.

You actually believe I think the definition of "ergo" is "I don't know and I don't have any proof but..."? Funny.

As I've said, I don't understand the fear mongering by Americans about Socialism. Under the best case you can make a loose argument Obama is a Socialist, and even then he seems to be bringing the best parts of it to the table. Like Darat said, the denfinition is hindering communication. Socialist or not he's doing good things. Arguing he is or isn't doesn't seem to accomplish anything.

 

[Furcifer]

Capitalism always regains its foothold, by fair means or foul. Without a government that ensures that the needs of the working class come before those of investors, it is usually by foul means. Compare the US in the Great Republican Depression to Germany of the same time or Pinochet's Chile.

The New Deal actually worked. Hitler's and Pinochet's ideas did not.

Government has to step in now and then to save capitalism from itself, and i am begining to wonder wheter it is really worth it anyomre.

The monied beneficiaries of the resucitation never seem to appreciate our saving their sorry butts. Reminds me of some heroine addicts I have known.

I think this is the best part of Obama taking office at this time. Hopefully Obama's pledge for change, and his "socialist" views will stick. This blind, greed driven Capitalism will become a thing of the past. I'm hopeful as a Canadian because I realize the trickle down effect being neighbours with the US.

 

[kallsop]

We're well on the way to state ownership of banks. AIG is 80% government owned - socialized losses and privatized profits - the long nightmare begins.

There is now a push to socialize the failing dead tree media, newspapers. Wouldn't the liberals be happy that all those trees won't be culled, bleached, inked and transported? With the internet, there's more news out there than ever before. Not all of it is in the tank for Obama though. Opposing viewpoints won't be tolerated, Supreme Ruler!

Hope and Change, no other opinions allowed.

 

[Cleon]

You actually believe I think the definition of "ergo" is "I don't know and I don't have any proof but..."? Funny.

Considering that you were arguing that Obama's support of technological development was evidence of his "socialism?"

At that point I could believe you'd think anything.

 

[Cleon]

We're well on the way to state ownership of banks. AIG is 80% government owned - socialized losses and privatized profits - the long nightmare begins.

No, it isn't.

The Federal Reserve has a stock warrant, not stock itself. If AIG defaults on the loans given to it by the Fed, the Fed may choose to purchase up to 80%.

There is now a push to socialize the failing dead tree media, newspapers.

What? Says who?

Wouldn't the liberals be happy that all those trees won't be culled, bleached, inked and transported? With the internet, there's more news out there than ever before. Not all of it is in the tank for Obama though. Opposing viewpoints won't be tolerated, Supreme Ruler!

Hope and Change, no other opinions allowed.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you have anything even resembling a point?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

We're well on the way to state ownership of banks. AIG is 80% government owned - socialized losses and privatized profits - the long nightmare begins.

There is now a push to socialize the failing dead tree media, newspapers. Wouldn't the liberals be happy that all those trees won't be culled, bleached, inked and transported? With the internet, there's more news out there than ever before. Not all of it is in the tank for Obama though. Opposing viewpoints won't be tolerated, Supreme Ruler!

Hope and Change, no other opinions allowed.

Meanwhile in the real world...

Do you even know what "socialize" means?

 

[Texas]

Obama is far more sympathetic to traditional socialist goals than he is to free market capitalism. He sees government as the solution to almost every problem we face be it health care, climate change or his affinity for organised labor. From what we know of his personal background he was raised by a mother that was an outspoken socialist and his father was a socialist politician in Kenya and during his time at Harvard he felt more comfortable with his leftist classmates then add to that, his life as a community organiser prior to entering politics would not make the question of him being a "socialist" so outrageous . I can't read his mind but from his actions thus far and his personal history it is fair to say that he, at the very least, wants the US to embrace the European Social-Welfare state model.