Another terrorist attack - London Bridge

[Mojo]

Catherine of Russia dealt with the large Jewish population by moving them as far away from the commercial centres of St Petersburg and environs to the far reaches of the Russian Empire (hence the phrase, 'beyond the pale'; derived from 'palisade') hence the birth of the shtelts in far Eastern Europe.

I thought the expression originated with The Pale.

 

[Vixen]

Oh look, an apologist for christian terrorism.

Yeah, christians are not "my brother" in comparison to muslims. No matter how much you might want me to think of them that way, I will not.


No, I do not agree to that at all. Nor is it ever going to actually happen.

He ain't no Christian, bruv.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

What you don't explain is how this 'persecution' (for which I've seen no evidence, BTW) from a minority of UK citizens translates into blowing up a concert hall full of school children.

I look back through history right up to the present day and I see Jews persecuted incalculably more than Muslims have ever been in the West, yet not murdering Westerners in their hundreds at every opportunity. And toning down on the persecution level you can apply that last sentence to any number of non-Islamic minorities in the UK and Europe.

You've hit the nail on the head, albeit without knowing it. Taken as an average, Muslims have an extremely low tolerance bar and pushing them over this, either the reality or the perception, will result in immediate and fatal results.

Do you see the word "recruit" in my post? It's not there accidentally. Terrorist organizations are actively capitalizing on the persecution to foster extremism. There's nothing special about Islam being the avenue for it.

Look, here's how things worked with my own country's failed pacification of Iraq:

1) Suicide bomber blows up something
2) Dozens of civilians are killed in the process of "rooting out" one or two terrorists responsible
3) Photos of the dead would be plastered all over the neighborhood
4) And now there's ISIS

 

[Information Analyst]

Catherine of Russia dealt with the large Jewish population by moving them as far away from the commercial centres of St Petersburg and environs to the far reaches of the Russian Empire (hence the phrase, 'beyond the pale'; derived from 'palisade') hence the birth of the shtelts in far Eastern Europe.

Err... no. In English it derives from The Pale - the area in Ireland under direct English rule.

 

[Vixen]

I didn't hear that particular Rev but hav heard various others during the week.


On a slightly different aspect...
People's kindness and generosity - raising money for the families of last week's victims and considering setting up some kind of memorial - is genuine, sincere and heart-warming, but I do just wonder whether this should be put temporarily on hold while focus is kept on the need to bring the level of danger down to a more 'normal' one. I do not think this would mean victims and families would be forgotten and maybe, just maybe, a greater degree of unity might result.

Agree.

IMV Ariana Grande's concert is far too soon. The vast majority of families grieving will be feeling far too depressed to want to go and boogie at her concert.

The pics of her visiting children in hospital smacked of PR and promo of an commercial entertainer.

The introduction of trivial frivolity annoys me.

 

[Information Analyst]

IMV Ariana Grande's concert is far too soon. The vast majority of families grieving will be feeling far too depressed to want to go and boogie at her concert.

The concert is far more than simply Grande's - it's effectively a Live Aid style FU to the terrorists.

The pics of her visiting children in hospital smacked of PR and promo of an commercial entertainer.

She would probably have been pilloried if she hadn't.

 

[uke2se]

Again, not something I have suggested or advocated. Why does persuading Muslims already in the UK to integrate/become less insular have to be achieved by banning more Muslims from entering the country? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion?

We started this conversation discussing why it's wrong to issue a blanket ban on Muslims. I thought that was still what we were discussing.

Why would banning more Muslims from entering the country cast suspicion on Muslims who already live here?

Because it would single out a religious minority. Not exactly rocket science.

Perhaps those Muslims who feel they are under suspicion of some sort could perhaps show that they have nothing to hide, if that's how they feel?

Are you being serious right now?

If they are integrated into British society, why would they feel like they are under suspicion?

Because they are Muslim.

No. This isn't political terrorism, or terrorism with any kind of specific agenda - this is killing innocent people out of pure hatred, based on interpretation of religious teachings; no values died last night - actual people did. I'm not advocating Draconian measures to prevent terrorism - just more robust ones, and less worrying about offending the delicate sensibilities of sympathisers and religious types.

So, you are in fact advocating Draconian measures, because you don't care about "worrying the sensibilities" of Muslims.

It doesn't matter if it's political terrorism or not. That has no bearing on the point I made. People who advocate for undercutting Western values by singling out religious minorities for various forms of extra scrutiny are engaged in just the same type of assault on our values as the terrorists are. I would argue that people like that are a much greater threat to Western society than all the world's Islamist terrorists, simply because stupid people listen to them and then "feel" the rightness of their fascist tendencies. That's what has been happening in the West for at least the last decade. The right wing fascists are gaining ever more power because stupid people are worried about Terrorists. It's a double-pronged assault.

 

[Vixen]

Are you making a distinction in the technology by which Christians kill their opponents, or claiming that mainstream Christians don't launch attacks knowing that children will be "inadvertently" killed? You may wish to consider how many times air raids were ordered against private homes in Afganistan by the US and its allies seeking to kill someone high in the taliban, for example, knowing that children in the house would be killed too.

But of course we all can pat ourselves on the back by saying that the goal wasn't to kill children. Somehow that doesn't completely make it okay for me. We knew it would happen and decided it was okay given our bigger goal of fighting the taliban. And I can't help wonder if the taliban/ISIS doesn't use the same rationalization.

In any case there are radical terrorist groups who consider themselves Christian and who have intentionally killed innocent people even recently.

Poor analogies. Christians haven't declared themselves at war with any culture. Sure, Paul urges Christians to 'demolish' non-believers in argument, but the Christian ideology is to 'love your enemy'. Jesus said it was easy enough to love one of your own, but you can't be a Christian if you hate strangers, enemies or 'others'. He told the parable of the Good Samaritan to illustrate this. Samaritans and Jews hated each other, so imagine the surprise to discover a despised foe coming along to not only help you, but to save your life.

I don't think vague generalisations about various wars or crusades that involved Christian nations are particularly germane to the current terrorist situation.

 

[uke2se]

Poor analogies. Christians haven't declared themselves at war with any culture. Sure, Paul urges Christians to 'demolish' non-believers in argument, but the Christian ideology is to 'love your enemy'. Jesus said it was easy enough to love one of your own, but you can't be a Christian if you hate strangers, enemies or 'others'. He told the parable of the Good Samaritan to illustrate this. Samaritans and Jews hated each other, so imagine the surprise to discover a despised foe coming along to not only help you, but to save your life.

I don't think vague generalisations about various wars or crusades that involved Christian nations are particularly germane to the current terrorist situation.

It should be noted that domestic terrorism in the US is closely linked with the Christian Identity sect, and that Breivik in Norway thought he was fighting for Christian Europe.

So, yes, extremists Christians are just as prone to terror as Islamists.

 

[Vixen]

I thought the expression originated with The Pale.

The etymology and meaning of the Russian pale is exactly parallel with the English one of its pale in Ireland. It derives from the Greek (iirc) 'palisade' to mean 'fenced off'. (As opposed to 'pale' as the antonym of 'dark'.)

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

It should be noted that domestic terrorism in the US is closely linked with the Christian Identity sect, and that Breivik in Norway thought he was fighting for Christian Europe.

So, yes, extremists Christians are just as prone to terror as Islamists.

Rubbish. Anders Brevik was a delusional racist madman, with a personality disorder, and an isolated incident. Christianity was not the driver of his actions:

"In 2015, he said that he has never personally identified as a Christian, and called his religion Odinism."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Anti-abortion violence - often linked to Christian Terrorism - is now where near as prevalent as Islamic terrorism. Certainly not in Europe. ETA: it's just as much a moral concern as it is a religious one.

I'd suggest very few people in the UK or Europe are at threat from 'Christian Terrorism'.

 

[Vixen]

It should be noted that domestic terrorism in the US is closely linked with the Christian Identity sect, and that Breivik in Norway thought he was fighting for Christian Europe.

So, yes, extremists Christians are just as prone to terror as Islamists.

Ah right. Yes, Breivik was an extreme rightwinger and nazi idolater who saw himself as a crusader (and borrowed from crusader symbology, which is ipso facto of 'christian mercenary soldiers' holding off marauding Islamic soldiers of olde) , make no mistake, he wasn't doing it 'for Christianity', he committed his atrocity in the name of being 'anti-multicultural'.

A good old-fashioned racialist and rabid neo-nazi.

A lone wolf nutter.


ETA Ninja-ed by the Wicked One's Male Voice Choir.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Stop trying to topple Assad in Syria.

 

[Giordano]

Rubbish. Anders Brevik was a delusional racist madman, with a personality disorder, and an isolated incident. Christianity was not the driver of his actions:

"In 2015, he said that he has never personally identified as a Christian, and called his religion Odinism."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Anti-abortion violence - often linked to Christian Terrorism - is now where near as prevalent as Islamic terrorism. Certainly not in Europe.

I'd suggest very few people in the UK or Europe are at threat from 'Christian Terrorism'.

Perhaps this particular form of Christian terrorism is not as evident in Europe as in the USA, although I don't dismiss Anders Breivik so easily. Yes he doesn't identify as a Christian- but he clearly shared many ideas proposed by right wing Christians. If we wish to look more broadly (and to the recent past) don't forget the Irish Republican Army- quite a few British (and Irish) died at their hands for many decades. And this was not very long ago. I would also point out the many disgusting actions targeting civilians that occurred during the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, at least many of which were "Christians" targeting Muslims. And these were expressly designed to terrorize the population to marginalize them, scare then, and force them off their property.

So yes,- "Christians" terrorize Europe too.

 

[baron]

Do you see the word "recruit" in my post? It's not there accidentally. Terrorist organizations are actively capitalizing on the persecution to foster extremism. There's nothing special about Islam being the avenue for it.

Yes, 'recruit', not 'compel'. There's nothing there that invalidates my argument and the idea that there's nothing inherent in Islam that lends itself to such action is bizarre.

Look, here's how things worked with my own country's failed pacification of Iraq:

1) Suicide bomber blows up something
2) Dozens of civilians are killed in the process of "rooting out" one or two terrorists responsible
3) Photos of the dead would be plastered all over the neighborhood
4) And now there's ISIS

That's a rather simplistic take on the matter, and even if it were the prime cause it would not explain how thousands of people from one specific group in the UK (and wider Europe) are so easily radicalised to commit acts of murder and terrorism. If a group you culturally or religiously identified with was being persecuted across the other side of the world, how much encouragement would you need to strap yourself up with explosives and walk into a concert hall full of kids?

 

[baron]

Stop trying to topple Assad in Syria.

I wasn't! I was just making a cup of tea!

 

[Giordano]

Rubbish. Anders Brevik was a delusional racist madman, with a personality disorder, and an isolated incident. Christianity was not the driver of his actions:
"In 2015, he said that he has never personally identified as a Christian, and called his religion Odinism."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Anti-abortion violence - often linked to Christian Terrorism - is now where near as prevalent as Islamic terrorism. Certainly not in Europe. ETA: it's just as much a moral concern as it is a religious one.

I'd suggest very few people in the UK or Europe are at threat from 'Christian Terrorism'.

I would tend to place many of the "Islamic Terrorists" in the same category. Are they not mostly delusional, racist, madmen with personality disorders?

 

[Vixen]

I would tend to place many of the "Islamic Terrorists" in the same category. Are they not mostly delusional, racist, madmen with personality disorders?

No. They are perfectly ordinary, (usually) young men and women who sign up to a fanatical fundamentalist Islam sect cleverly engineered by well-educated fluent Arabic speakers and experts in the Qu'ran line by line. These guys directing the 'Caliphate' in Mosul/Raqqa know their Qu'ran and Islam inside out.

 

[Giordano]

One important point in determining what to do about the terrorism is to be well aware of what the terrorists seek to accomplish. It is pretty clear that one major goal of the terrorists is to spur Western societies into "cracking down" on all Muslims: To mount military attacks that kill indiscriminately (yes, ironic, but true). To denounce Muslims as a whole as dangerous evil people. To take away from Muslims as a group rights other groups have. To expel Muslims as a group. In fact, to limit Muslim immigration. The terrorists know that these actions dramatically increase their supporter base. This is a core feature of all guerrilla warfare. I can't vouch for their accuracy but there were a number of reports that ISIS was very happy that Trump was elected.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-trumps-election-win/?utm_term=.58bb6b7cfbb4
Why do you think that might be true?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Perhaps this particular form of Christian terrorism is not as evident in Europe as in the USA, although I don't dismiss Anders Breivik so easily. Yes he doesn't identify as a Christian- but he clearly shared many ideas proposed by right wing Christians. If we wish to look more broadly (and to the recent past) don't forget the Irish Republican Army- quite a few British (and Irish) died at their hands for many decades. And this was not very long ago. I would also point out the many disgusting actions targeting civilians that occurred during the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, at least many of which were "Christians" targeting Muslims. And these were expressly designed to terrorize the population to marginalize them, scare then, and force them off their property.

So yes,- "Christians" terrorize Europe too.

No, they don't. I posted earlier about the IRA - they were politically motivated, and while religion was mixed into the whole mess, it wasn't the driver behind their campaign:

"The Irish Republican Army (IRA) is any of several armed movements in Ireland in the 20th and 21st centuries dedicated to Irish republicanism, the belief that all of Ireland should be an independent republic. It was also characterised by the belief that political violence was necessary to achieve that goal."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

Calling the IRA 'Christian Terrorists' is flat-out wrong, and smacks of apology I'm afraid.