Another terrorist attack - London Bridge

[Belz...]

I don't think anyone in a position of authority doesn't think that radical Islamic terrorism is a big problem.

Yeah but as I was told in another thread we shouldn't mention that it is*.

 

[Giordano]

No. They are perfectly ordinary, (usually) young men and women who sign up to a fanatical cult cleverly engineered by well-educated fluent Arabic speakers and experts in the Qu'ran line by line. These guys directing the 'Caliphate' in Mosul/Raqqa know their Qu'ran and Islam inside out.

Look into it more- Many of them may come from middle class backgrounds but they became disaffected and deeply disturbed by how their lives played out. A significant numbers have been petty criminals. I would maintain that to convince oneself to build a suicide vest and kill a group of random people is itself a clear sign of madness- facilitated or not by other madmen claiming a religious rationale.

 

[Belz...]

I question the basic assumption that there should be any immigration at all

So we should've left the Americas to the natives?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I would tend to place many of the "Islamic Terrorists" in the same category. Are they not mostly delusional, racist, madmen with personality disorders?

No. A diagnosed personality disorder is not the same thing as deciding to commit religious violence on behalf of an extremist religious group, because of what your Holy Book tells you. Delusional, yes; racist, yes; madmen; I'm sure the vast majority are legally 'sane'. They are doing what they do because of what they believe their religion wants, in the name of their religion.

 

[Giordano]

No, they don't. I posted earlier about the IRA - they were politically motivated, and while religion was mixed into the whole mess, it wasn't the driver behind their campaign:

"The Irish Republican Army (IRA) is any of several armed movements in Ireland in the 20th and 21st centuries dedicated to Irish republicanism, the belief that all of Ireland should be an independent republic. It was also characterised by the belief that political violence was necessary to achieve that goal."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

Calling the IRA 'Christian Terrorists' is flat-out wrong, and smacks of apology I'm afraid.

Not True Christian Terrorists I guess?

Let me see- The IRA were (or claimed to be) Catholics and closely identified their movement with that self-attribution. They felt that they had suffered at the hands of and "their" country had been controlled by Protestants for hundreds of years (much of this is true by the way). The division was indeed very much along religious lines, with religion also mapping onto political and societal discrimination. Did the IRA seek to establish a secular larger Ireland in which Catholics and Protestants had equal political status, or one that established Catholicism as the official religion? Did not much of the violence, taunts, public demonstrations, etc. focus on religion? Were bombs placed mostly based on what the victims' religion was, or did the IRA ask people to fill out a poll first as to the potential victims views on Irish partition?

Yes, religion and politics were and are often deeply intermixed. You may wish to consider then the desire of ISIS to establish a caliphate state and compare this "political" motivation to the "political" motivation of the IRA. I submit that there are more shades of grey than would permit an easily rationalization of one group being religious terrorists and the other not.

 

[ddt]

For those unaware of who Tommy Robinson is and who wish to spare themselves several minutes of spittle-flecked racist invective here is a snippet from Tommy Robinson's Wikipedia page:

I really don't understand why everyone indulges mr. Yaxley-Lennon in using his pseudonym. It's not like he's being targeted by the Okrana.

And yes, if it looks like a racist, walks like a racist and quacks like a racist, it probably is a racist.

 

[Giordano]

No. A diagnosed personality disorder is not the same thing as deciding to commit religious violence on behalf of an extremist religious group, because of what your Holy Book tells you. Delusional, yes; racist, yes; madmen; I'm sure the vast majority are legally 'sane'. They are doing what they do because of what they believe their religion wants, in the name of their religion.

A subset of believers become convinced that an imaginary being has ordered them to kill other people. Most other followers of the religion do not agree. That's crazy enough in my book. It is not typically legally insane because there are too many people in society as a whole who share the first part of the fantasy- an imaginary being cars what they do and will reward them if the do certain things.

 

[baron]

You may wish to consider then the desire of ISIS to establish a caliphate state and compare this "political" motivation to the "political" motivation of the IRA.

The motivations of ISIS are not primarily political, nor are they to do with territories or wars, they are religious.

Why We Hate You and Why We Fight You

1. Because we do not believe in Islamic monotheism.
2. Because we do not obey Allah.
3. Because of the atheists among us.
4. Because of our crimes against the religion of Islam.
5. Because of our crimes against Muslims.
6. Because of our invasion of Muslim lands.

Just as your disbelief is the primary reason we hate you, your disbelief is the primary reason we fight you, as we have been commanded to fight the disbelievers until they submit to the authority of Islam, either by becoming Muslims, or by... living in humiliation under the rule of the Muslims.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Not True Christian Terrorists I guess?

Let me see- The IRA were (or claimed to be) Catholics and closely identified their movement with that self-attribution. They felt that they had suffered at the hands of and "their" country had been controlled by Protestants for hundreds of years (much of this is true by the way). The division was indeed very much along religious lines, with religion also mapping onto political and societal discrimination. Did the IRA seek to establish a secular larger Ireland in which Catholics and Protestants had equal political status, or one that established Catholicism as the official religion? Did not much of the violence, taunts, public demonstrations, etc. focus on religion? Were bombs placed mostly based on what the victims' religion was, or did the IRA ask people to fill out a poll first as to the potential victims views on Irish partition?

Yes, religion and politics were and are often deeply intermixed. You may wish to consider then the desire of ISIS to establish a caliphate state and compare this "political" motivation to the "political" motivation of the IRA. I submit that there are more shades of grey than would permit an easily rationalization of one group being religious terrorists and the other not.

When I was in the British Army, in a half Northern Irish half Northern England Regiment, my boss was an Ulster Catholic, and so were several other members of the Unit. Religion was a big divide and cause of violence in Northern Ireland, but the primary motivation of the IRA was NOT Christianity. You're starting to make yourself look silly.

A caliphate is an "Islamic form of government, considered a successor state to the realm of the prophet Muhammad" - Islamic. ISLAMIC. There's nothing political about IS - their motivation is purely religious. Stop trying to draw apologetic parallels to 'Christian Terrorists' which don't actually exist in the UK or Europe.

 

[baron]

I really don't understand why everyone indulges mr. Yaxley-Lennon in using his pseudonym. It's not like he's being targeted by the Okrana.

Sure, it's not like he's had multiple attempts on his life, countless assaults, six Osman warnings, a terrorist cell arrested on their way to kill him and his associates with pipe bombs, several hundred death threats against his family and kids, armed gangs turn up at his family home or anything like that.

And yes, if it looks like a racist, walks like a racist and quacks like a racist, it probably is a racist.

You don't know anything about him, that much is clear.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

A subset of believers become convinced that an imaginary being has ordered them to kill other people. Most other followers of the religion do not agree. That's crazy enough in my book. It is not typically legally insane because there are too many people in society as a whole who share the first part of the fantasy- an imaginary being cars what they do and will reward them if the do certain things.

I personally don't consider belief in any religion to be rational, but society does not view 'being religious' as insanity, and I know plenty of sane religious people. I fundamentally understand and agree with what you're saying, but we both know you're reaching far to far to try and prove a point.

Following a religion is not a basic definition of insanity.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Stop trying to topple Assad in Syria.

How many of these disgusting murderers have declared their allegiance to Assad?

 

[Giordano]

The motivations of ISIS are not primarily political, nor are they to do with territories or wars, they are religious.

Core elements of both sides of the Troubles believed that they were being treated unfairly by the other side for religious reasons and that their religions were the basis and that their religions were under attack. Their goal, both Catholic and Protestant, was to implement or maintain a political structure that protected their religion.

Both sides routinely described religion as a key element in their motivation and in how they demarcated the conflict.

“I have always said that I am an Orangeman first and a politician and a member of this parliament afterwards… All I boast is that we have a Protestant parliament and a Protestant state.”
Sir James Craig, Northern Ireland prime minister, 1934

“By mid-December 1971, 1576 people had been arrested by the army under the Special Powers Act, virtually all of them Catholic.”
Sunday Times, 1972

“Probably the greater influence on me, just in regard to the development of my own politics, were obviously the pogroms. I was living in Belfast when Loyalists bombed McGuirk’s Bar and 15 Catholics were killed. On reflection I know that had a substantial impact on me because some of the people were friends and neighbours. And of course the massacre in Derry, Bloody Sunday, had a massive influence on me.”
Bobby Storey, IRA leader

“We were led to believe that only a minority of Catholics supported violence. To Protestants the hunger strike showed that Catholics were prepared to support the gunmen who murdered their fellow citizens.”
Frank Millar, Official Unionist Party

“Catholics don’t want a share in the government of Northern Ireland. They want Northern Ireland to be destroyed and to have a united Ireland. Even if they were to join a government, it’s only until such a time as they can destroy the government and the state. The ordinary Ulsterman is not going
to surrender to the IRA… We have not only the right but the duty to kill them before they kill me, my family and others.”
Ian Paisley, DUP leader

And here is a "sympathetic" statement saying the Catholics might even be as good as the Protestants some day. But consider what it is really stating about the division in Northern Ireland:
“It is frightfully hard to explain to Protestants that if you give Roman Catholics a good job and a good house they will live like Protestants because they will see neighbours with cars and television sets; they [Catholics] will refuse to have 18 children. But if a Roman Catholic is jobless and lives in the most ghastly hovel he will rear 18 children on National Assistance. If you treat Roman Catholics with due consideration and kindness they will live like Protestants in spite of the authoritative nature of their Church.”
Terence O’Neill, 1969

“On these unfortunate beings the fury of the Orange Specials and Orange mobs falls daily and nightly. These people have committed no offence unless it is an offence to be born a Catholic… On the simple charge of being Catholic, hundreds of families are being continually driven from their houses… In these operations the Specials provide the petrol, firearms and immunity from prosecution.”
Manchester Guardian, May 1921

And here is a recent statement from the Catholic Chruch as to how they see the discussion in this thread:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/fait...ate-muslim-irish-republican-army-was-catholic

 

[Darat]

How and what practical type of action would you suggest taking against a religion?

The constituent countries of the UK don't have a very good history of handling religious differences.

 

[Darat]

I don't know - haven't given it much thought - the question was more rhetorical than anything else.

My thoughts on the subject are basically that religion - in general - should not be pandered to as much as it currently is, and that immigrants to this country are free to believe what they like privately, but they should integrate into our culture wherever possible without concession being made to their belief in an imaginary god.

"our culture"? Defined by who and who is this "our"?

 

[Darat]

It's easy enough to install concrete blocks to prevent cars mounting the pavement. I am surprised that after the Westminster Bridge attack they didn't immediately do this to make other Central London bridges secure from pedestrians being mown down, given what happened in Nice, Berlin and Stockholm.

It won't stop terrorism, but it's a start.

No it is not easy enough, nor could it be done quickly and why just London? Nothing to stop such an attack taking place somewhere like say Warrington.

 

[baron]

Core elements of both sides of the Troubles believed that they were being treated unfairly by the other side for religious reasons and that their religions were the basis and that their religions were under attack. Their goal, both Catholic and Protestant, was to implement or maintain a political structure that protected their religion.

Both sides routinely described religion as a key element in their motivation and in how they demarcated the conflict.

“I have always said that I am an Orangeman first and a politician and a member of this parliament afterwards… All I boast is that we have a Protestant parliament and a Protestant state.”
Sir James Craig, Northern Ireland prime minister, 1934

“By mid-December 1971, 1576 people had been arrested by the army under the Special Powers Act, virtually all of them Catholic.”
Sunday Times, 1972

“Probably the greater influence on me, just in regard to the development of my own politics, were obviously the pogroms. I was living in Belfast when Loyalists bombed McGuirk’s Bar and 15 Catholics were killed. On reflection I know that had a substantial impact on me because some of the people were friends and neighbours. And of course the massacre in Derry, Bloody Sunday, had a massive influence on me.”
Bobby Storey, IRA leader

“We were led to believe that only a minority of Catholics supported violence. To Protestants the hunger strike showed that Catholics were prepared to support the gunmen who murdered their fellow citizens.”
Frank Millar, Official Unionist Party

“Catholics don’t want a share in the government of Northern Ireland. They want Northern Ireland to be destroyed and to have a united Ireland. Even if they were to join a government, it’s only until such a time as they can destroy the government and the state. The ordinary Ulsterman is not going
to surrender to the IRA… We have not only the right but the duty to kill them before they kill me, my family and others.”
Ian Paisley, DUP leader

And here is a "sympathetic" statement saying the Catholics might even be as good as the Protestants some day. But consider what it is really stating about the division in Northern Ireland:
“It is frightfully hard to explain to Protestants that if you give Roman Catholics a good job and a good house they will live like Protestants because they will see neighbours with cars and television sets; they [Catholics] will refuse to have 18 children. But if a Roman Catholic is jobless and lives in the most ghastly hovel he will rear 18 children on National Assistance. If you treat Roman Catholics with due consideration and kindness they will live like Protestants in spite of the authoritative nature of their Church.”
Terence O’Neill, 1969

“On these unfortunate beings the fury of the Orange Specials and Orange mobs falls daily and nightly. These people have committed no offence unless it is an offence to be born a Catholic… On the simple charge of being Catholic, hundreds of families are being continually driven from their houses… In these operations the Specials provide the petrol, firearms and immunity from prosecution.”
Manchester Guardian, May 1921

And here is a recent statement from the Catholic Chruch as to how they see the discussion in this thread:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/fait...ate-muslim-irish-republican-army-was-catholic

So are you suggesting we should disbelieve ISIS when it says its primary motivation is religious?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Core elements of both sides of the Troubles believed that they were being treated unfairly by the other side for religious reasons and that their religions were the basis and that their religions were under attack. Their goal, both Catholic and Protestant, was to implement or maintain a political structure that protected their religion.

Both sides routinely described religion as a key element in their motivation and in how they demarcated the conflict.

“I have always said that I am an Orangeman first and a politician and a member of this parliament afterwards… All I boast is that we have a Protestant parliament and a Protestant state.”
Sir James Craig, Northern Ireland prime minister, 1934

“By mid-December 1971, 1576 people had been arrested by the army under the Special Powers Act, virtually all of them Catholic.”
Sunday Times, 1972

“Probably the greater influence on me, just in regard to the development of my own politics, were obviously the pogroms. I was living in Belfast when Loyalists bombed McGuirk’s Bar and 15 Catholics were killed. On reflection I know that had a substantial impact on me because some of the people were friends and neighbours. And of course the massacre in Derry, Bloody Sunday, had a massive influence on me.”
Bobby Storey, IRA leader

“We were led to believe that only a minority of Catholics supported violence. To Protestants the hunger strike showed that Catholics were prepared to support the gunmen who murdered their fellow citizens.”
Frank Millar, Official Unionist Party

“Catholics don’t want a share in the government of Northern Ireland. They want Northern Ireland to be destroyed and to have a united Ireland. Even if they were to join a government, it’s only until such a time as they can destroy the government and the state. The ordinary Ulsterman is not going
to surrender to the IRA… We have not only the right but the duty to kill them before they kill me, my family and others.”
Ian Paisley, DUP leader

And here is a "sympathetic" statement saying the Catholics might even be as good as the Protestants some day. But consider what it is really stating about the division in Northern Ireland:
“It is frightfully hard to explain to Protestants that if you give Roman Catholics a good job and a good house they will live like Protestants because they will see neighbours with cars and television sets; they [Catholics] will refuse to have 18 children. But if a Roman Catholic is jobless and lives in the most ghastly hovel he will rear 18 children on National Assistance. If you treat Roman Catholics with due consideration and kindness they will live like Protestants in spite of the authoritative nature of their Church.”
Terence O’Neill, 1969

“On these unfortunate beings the fury of the Orange Specials and Orange mobs falls daily and nightly. These people have committed no offence unless it is an offence to be born a Catholic… On the simple charge of being Catholic, hundreds of families are being continually driven from their houses… In these operations the Specials provide the petrol, firearms and immunity from prosecution.”
Manchester Guardian, May 1921

And here is a recent statement from the Catholic Chruch as to how they see the discussion in this thread:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/fait...ate-muslim-irish-republican-army-was-catholic

Great Wall of text - doesn't change the facts in the slightest. The clue is even in the name "Irish REPUBLICAN Army". That either side were usually either predominantly Catholic or Protestant was down to historic circumstances, NOT the prime motivation for what the IRA did; they were purely focussed on the unification of Ireland - it was not a religious struggle. Looks like your hilighter missed this from the quote you posted: "They want Northern Ireland to be destroyed and to have a united Ireland". Of course that comes from Protestant Reverend and Unionist leader Ian Paisley, so it's a bit heavy on the drama, but once again - although religion was a large part of the troubles, the IRA were not carrying out attacks based on their religious beliefs or motivations, but in order to force the British Government to withdraw from Northern Ireland, and thus unite Ireland.

 

[Darat]

The concert is far more than simply Grande's - it's effectively a Live Aid style FU to the terrorists.



She would probably have been pilloried if she hadn't.

Strange the Queen wasn't accused of the same when she trotted up just days after...

From various reports many of the injured victims still in hospital were over the moon that she came to visit them. I don't care if that meant she also got good PR, and it seems a lack of empathy by those that criticise her "PR stunt" that they would rather her get no good PR and the kids not have the joy of meeting her.

 

[Darat]

Perhaps this particular form of Christian terrorism is not as evident in Europe as in the USA, although I don't dismiss Anders Breivik so easily. Yes he doesn't identify as a Christian- but he clearly shared many ideas proposed by right wing Christians. If we wish to look more broadly (and to the recent past) don't forget the Irish Republican Army- quite a few British (and Irish) died at their hands for many decades. And this was not very long ago. I would also point out the many disgusting actions targeting civilians that occurred during the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, at least many of which were "Christians" targeting Muslims. And these were expressly designed to terrorize the population to marginalize them, scare then, and force them off their property.

So yes,- "Christians" terrorize Europe too.

The terrorists in Ireland are still killing people. Just a few days ago the Irish police managed to intercept a vehicle which was transporting recently acquired semtex.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2017/0602/879955-ballbough/