Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

[Toke]

Which kind of describes the whole situation to me....

I am sure there are good cult-technical reasons for religious bans and requirements, something to do with in-group thinking.
It runs on its very own kind of logic.

It can be quite entertaining to consider the implications.

Like, if a martyr get 72 virgins, does that mean that a heavenly household consist of 73 martyrs?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Personally, I don't object to people practicing their religion, as long as it's not causing problems for others.

Same goes for me.

However, at what point does your desire to use a lift on a Saturday without pressing a button override that of the general population to go up 20 floors without stopping at every one? Is there no general principle that if local laws or customs conflict with kosher requirements, then they must take precedence?

Not all elevators do this in Israel, only certain areas where there's a high density of people who adhere keeping the sabbath. One wouldn't see this in many places in Zichron Yaacov, Hadera, or Tel Aviv as much as in Jerusalem.

As a counter-example, I wouldn't mind waiting for elevators stopping at every floor on friday-saturday if it allows those who are religiously observant, especially those who have disabilities, to use the elevator. Its a minor inconvenience for me or I would assume the same for those who aren't observant.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Sure about shoving an opinion down someones throat, but that does not mean I can't think that they are being very strange and silly about the way they choose to exorcise their religion.

Of course one can have their opinions about religious customs and such, but there's a difference between having an actual debate and that of assuming that a thread about said topic(s) is an open invitation for trolling...

 

[Rasmus]

Same goes for me.


Not all elevators do this in Israel, only certain areas where there's a high density of people who adhere keeping the sabbath. One wouldn't see this in many places in Zichron Yaacov, Hadera, or Tel Aviv as much as in Jerusalem.

As a counter-example, I wouldn't mind waiting for elevators stopping at every floor on friday-saturday if it allows those who are religiously observant, especially those who have disabilities, to use the elevator. Its a minor inconvenience for me or I would assume the same for those who aren't observant.

This is where we differ. I would mind - minor as it may be, the inconvenience is utterly unnecessary. If somebody decide to follow a bunch of made up ******** rules it should be entirely up to them to bear the consequences thereof. I assume that even the disabled Jews you speak of are entirel capable of pressing a button. They just don't want to.

They don't want to, yet it's other people that have to wait for the elevators. Go figure.

 

[Meadmaker]

This is where we differ. I would mind - minor as it may be, the inconvenience is utterly unnecessary. If somebody decide to follow a bunch of made up ******** rules it should be entirely up to them to bear the consequences thereof. I assume that even the disabled Jews you speak of are entirel capable of pressing a button. They just don't want to.

They don't want to, yet it's other people that have to wait for the elevators. Go figure.

This position seems to be imposing your will on others, in the guise of complaining about them imposing their will on you.

Let's start in the United States, where there are no requirements to have sabbath elevators. If the landlord decides to install a sabbath elevator, that's his right. Are you inconvenienced by his decision if you live in or visit his building? I suppose, but no more so than if you don't like the height of the ceilings or the color of the paint or the style of heating system. He has a building. It works for the majority of his tenants. If it doesn't work for you, then you don't have to live there. It's a free country.

If, somehow, you think that this particular accomodation of people shouldn't be allowed, that's your prejudice talking. The landlord thinks his tenants would be happier with a sabbath elevator, so he puts one in. The fact that one tenant/visitor (you) isn't happy is a compromise he has to deal with. While you are understandably unhappy, you can't please everyone, and on this occasion, you lose, but why is it that your wishes are more important than the wishes of the other tenants? If you have no answer other than some variation on, "Their desires are based on ignorant superstition." then you are just showing preudice.

Now, let's think about Israel, where the government actually mandates that there be sabbath elevators. You might object to government imposing religious standards on people anywhere in the world. I agree with you, but there are some things I can't get upset about. I think all governments everywhere ought to drop religious favoritism, or at least no more favoritism than is shown in most of Europe, where the established religion is taught to all, and ignored by most. However, as religious persecution goes, having to put in a sabbath elevator due to government decree, or not being allowed to buy alcohol on Sunday mornings, is not all that bad.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Nothing more to add what Meadmaker hasn't already said.

As for Rasmus, I don't quite get why you are so aggressive. Apart from this debate being purely hypothetical, have you ever been in a building with a sabbath elevator or is this like finding that evasive mythical unicorn?

 

[Southwind17]

Of course one can have their opinions about religious customs and such, but there's a difference between having an actual debate and that of assuming that a thread about said topic(s) is an open invitation for trolling...

So one can have an opinion (that just happens to differ from yours), but when one expresses such opinion it's interpreted as trolling! I genuinely consider that observance of whacky religious customs (if not all religious customs) shows some mental imbalance. You might consider that such a view shows some mental retardation (you might, of course, just say that as a blinkered defense mechanism). Regardless, we're all entitled to express our opinions. If you don't like what you read you have choices: Stop reading or grow thicker skin. The last thing you should do, though, is suggest that people should not be entitled to express their opinions. That's one of the worst forms of religious custom I know, and a contributory factor to my having the opinion I do - possibly you yours. Remember - choices. Nobody's forcing you to respond (assuming you've read this!).

 

[Meadmaker]

I genuinely consider that observance of whacky religious customs (if not all religious customs) shows some mental imbalance.

I never thought of myself as mentally imbalanced. Maybe the ones I observe aren't the whacky ones.

Does it matter that not all the people who observe the customs also believe the supernatural parts? Even among strictly observant Jews, the kind of people who would be concerned about weight sensors on sabbath elevators, you will find a very small number of atheists, but a fair number of agnostics.

 

[Sledge]

I never thought of myself as mentally imbalanced. Maybe the ones I observe aren't the whacky ones.

Surely someone who was mentally imbalanced wouldn't think of themeselves as such? I'm not saying you are, just pointing out the flaw there.

Does it matter that not all the people who observe the customs also believe the supernatural parts? Even among strictly observant Jews, the kind of people who would be concerned about weight sensors on sabbath elevators, you will find a very small number of atheists, but a fair number of agnostics.

Personally, I'd be even more concerned about someone who observes this sort of thing without believing the supernatural parts. At least if you think God will send you to hell for taking the elevator, there's some sort of reason for your behaviour. Doing it just because seems more like OCD than anything else.

 

[Southwind17]

Surely someone who was mentally imbalanced wouldn't think of themeselves as such? I'm not saying you are, just pointing out the flaw there.

I'd say it's probably impossible to say with any degree of certainty how a mentally imbalanced person might think. The degree of divergence of logical, rational thinking and/or ability to act on logical, rational thoughts (or rather resist acting against such thoughts) could well be proportional to the degree of imbalance, though, affording one an educated guess, depending on circumstances.

Personally, I'd be even more concerned about someone who observes this sort of thing without believing the supernatural parts. At least if you think God will send you to hell for taking the elevator, there's some sort of reason for your behaviour. Doing it just because seems more like OCD than anything else.

Indeed. One has to wonder what motivates an atheist to behave so. Just adds more weight to the mentally imbalanced argument, I suppose.

 

[Cactus Wren]

Nothing more to add what Meadmaker hasn't already said.

As for Rasmus, I don't quite get why you are so aggressive. Apart from this debate being purely hypothetical, have you ever been in a building with a sabbath elevator or is this like finding that evasive mythical unicorn?

Does anyone actually have to wait for a shabbos elevator? It seems to me that a high-rise building would very likely have more than one elevator. Would all of them have this modification, or only a large fraction?

 

[Kritikos]

A bit unrelated, but this reminds me of the time I went to McDonald's in Tel Aviv. I ordered a cheeseburger. The girl that took my order asked back:

"With cheese, sir?"

I was totally surprised by that question. I should have remembered that you don't order meat and cheese together, but still it was on their menu. But why on earth would I order a cheeseburger without the cheese?!? I would have understood better if she had asked "without meat?". Funny people.

Man walks into a McDonald's in Tel Aviv and orders a cheeseburger with no cheese. Girl behind the counter says, "I'm sorry, sir, we're all out of cheese. Will you take a cheeseburger without meat?" Ba da boom.

YOU'RE a strawman.

Whee! Making unsupported allegations to win arguments is fun!

The previous parts of my post, which you left out of your quotation, provided the reasons for my assertion. Since your post was merely another illustration of the errors that I had already criticized, I saw no need to repeat my arguments.

And, by the way, I am in fact made entirely of straw. It's a rare medical condition and I'll thank you not to make fun of it.

they are being very strange and silly about the way they choose to exorcise their religion.

 

[Sledge]

The previous parts of my post, which you left out of your quotation, provided the reasons for my assertion.

No they didn't.

 

[Kritikos]

No they didn't.

All right, here's you again:

It's this kind of stuff that convinced the young Sledge many years ago that religion is rubbish. God created the whole universe and everything in it, but will be angry if you operate a light switch on a certain day? Bulldust. How egotistical would you have to be to honestly believe a supereme being would care about you turning a light on?

You assume that Orthodox Jewish religious observance depends on the idea that disobedience makes God angry -- that God "will be angry if you operate a light switch on a certain day." Here is what I said earlier in my post:

I am pretty sure that no belief in penalties for disobedience of religious law is widely held among Orthodox Jews.

Orthodox Jewish observance is not based on fear of punishment for disobedience but on acceptance of the divine origin of the Torah.

Now I see that my remarks did not address the specific idea that "God will be angry with you," but only the idea that "God will punish you" (for disobedience). But the main point that I was making applies to both of those ideas: for one who accepts the divine origin of the Torah, obedience has nothing to do with fear of consequences of disobedience.

 

[Sledge]

So God doesn't care if people obey these laws? Then why lay them down?

 

[Kritikos]

So God doesn't care if people obey these laws? Then why lay them down?

I am not sure what the Orthodox position is, or if there is any such thing as "the Orthodox position," on whether God "cares" about whether those to whom he has given the Torah observe it. My point was just that the observance is not based on any such notions. It is based on the acceptance of divine authority, let God's reasons be what they may be.

 

[Sledge]

That in no way answers my questions, and makes me think "If this guy isn't sure about this stuff, why is he answering?"

 

[Kritikos]

That in no way answers my questions, and makes me think "If this guy isn't sure about this stuff, why is he answering?"

You don't have to know what the right answer is to know that some proposed answer is wrong.

 

[drkitten]

So God doesn't care if people obey these laws? Then why lay them down?

Answered in a previous post.

Because God realizes that following them will make the world a better place. Not everyone realizes that. So he put those rules into a book so that people would realize.

That's not just a standard part of Orthodox Jewish theology; that's a standard part of Jewish theology. Following the rules makes you a better person and makes the world a better place. The primary difference is that the Reform Jews believe that the rules-as-laid-down are in some regards outdated and can/should be updated. The Orthodox believe the rules are timeless, and to update is to break.

ETA: for example, one of the main reasons for the Sabbath (e.g., Deuteronomy 5:15, IIRC) is not just for YOU to rest, but for everyone who works for you to rest. Your servants, your children, your animals, and so forth. The Sabbath explicitly commands a day of rest for these people, in rememberence of the fact that "you were slaves in Egypt."

Keeping the Sabbath, therefore, makes the world a better place because it keeps YOU from overworking your people.

 

[Meadmaker]

Indeed. One has to wonder what motivates an atheist to behave so. Just adds more weight to the mentally imbalanced argument, I suppose.

You could ask one, at least, assuming you could find one who would talk to you. They don't have much of an incentive to do that, but some might maintain web pages.

The point that I was getting at is that observance of those religious rituals obviously makes those atheists feel like they are somehow getting something out of the observance, and whatever they get out of the observance is probably the same thing that the majority of God-believing Jews get out of it.

You have projected that somehow the motivation for the ritual depends on some irrational belief in a divine entity that commands a certain activity. While an awful lot of observant Jews would agree that such a deity exists and that deity did, in reality, make such a commandment, that really misses the point.

Divine favor or disfavor is something that Jews just don't talk much about. I just can't imagine a Jew being worried about God's wrath if he decided to press the button for the non-Shabbos elevator on the sabbath.