Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

I do not see any technical problem in building a kosher elevator, that is one that does not involve softstart or frequency converter for the motor and just goes up and down all day stopping at every floor.
Getting somebody to pay is another matter.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Yep, you fail to see it. So you're a radical atheist, who cares?

I find it a sign of mental retardation with certain atheists that fail to comprehend that those who are religious observant actually give a hoot about what atheists think of them. If it doesn't involve you, why go through such great lengths to bicker and whine?
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So I'm mentally retarded because I ascribe your illogical silliness to mental imbalance. That's just further evidence of mental imbalance, if you ask me.

And as you raise bickering and whining (which I don't accept) shall we discuss the relative colour of pots and kettles at the same time?
 
Southwind17 said:
So I'm mentally retarded because I ascribe your illogical silliness to mental imbalance. That's just further evidence of mental imbalance, if you ask me.

And as you raise bickering and whining (which I don't accept) shall we discuss the relative colour of pots and kettles at the same time?
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Again, you fail to see how one would actually give a damn about what you accept or don't accept. That's the basic point. People can practice their religion, be it keeping the sabbath or whatnot, without having these offensive atheists shoving their opinions down their throats.
 
bigjelmapro said:
People can practice their religion, be it keeping the sabbath or whatnot, without having these offensive atheists shoving their opinions down their throats.
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Personally, I don't object to people practicing their religion, as long as it's not causing problems for others.

However, at what point does your desire to use a lift on a Saturday without pressing a button override that of the general population to go up 20 floors without stopping at every one? Is there no general principle that if local laws or customs conflict with kosher requirements, then they must take precedence?
 
bigjelmapro said:
Again, you fail to see how one would actually give a damn about what you accept or don't accept. That's the basic point. People can practice their religion, be it keeping the sabbath or whatnot, without having these offensive atheists shoving their opinions down their throats.
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Sure about shoving an opinion down someones throat, but that does not mean I can't think that they are being very strange and silly about the way they choose to exorcise their religion.

Hmm, I wonder if discordians could get elevators set to go to floors randomly on say every alternate monday?
 
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/39/Q1/

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bigjelmapro said:
Again, you fail to see how one would actually give a damn about what you accept or don't accept. That's the basic point.
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No I don't. They're perfectly free to not give a damn as I am, and don't. They're equally free to express a view or opinion, as I am, and did.

bigjelmapro said:
People can practice their religion, be it keeping the sabbath or whatnot, without having these offensive atheists shoving their opinions down their throats.
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Did somebody physically force you to read my opinion, or did you do so wholly voluntarily?
 
zooterkin said:
Personally, I don't object to people practicing their religion, as long as it's not causing problems for others.

However, at what point does your desire to use a lift on a Saturday without pressing a button override that of the general population to go up 20 floors without stopping at every one? Is there no general principle that if local laws or customs conflict with kosher requirements, then they must take precedence?
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Well, if it bothers you that the 20 floor apartment building you live in has a Sabbath elevator, and it bothers your orthodox neighbor that it doesn't, one of you will have to move.

I see no particular reason why it has to be him that moves.

I also see no reason why you can't use the non-Sabbath elevator on Saturday.

Basically, if you don't like living in a building with a Sabbath elevator,.... don't sign the lease.
 
What happens if you forget to unscrew the bulb in the refrigerator, or are there kosher refrigerators without lights or a timer on it?
 
drkitten said:
Well, if it bothers you that the 20 floor apartment building you live in has a Sabbath elevator, and it bothers your orthodox neighbor that it doesn't, one of you will have to move.

I see no particular reason why it has to be him that moves.

I also see no reason why you can't use the non-Sabbath elevator on Saturday.

Basically, if you don't like living in a building with a Sabbath elevator,.... don't sign the lease.
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I'm sorry if you've read something in my post that wasn't there. They were serious questions; is there any guidance when following kosher laws about the effect on the non-observant people around you, and the effect of laws or customs which contradict the kosher requirements?
 
zooterkin said:
Personally, I don't object to people practicing their religion, as long as it's not causing problems for others.

However, at what point does your desire to use a lift on a Saturday without pressing a button override that of the general population to go up 20 floors without stopping at every one? Is there no general principle that if local laws or customs conflict with kosher requirements, then they must take precedence?
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There really isn't much of a case where local customs,as opposed to law, prevent you from following Jewish religious law. If there's a sabbath elevator, you take it. If not, walk. No one else is inconvenienced either way.

But, one might say, what if the landlord turns the only elevator into a sabbath elevator? What about the people who are not observant Jews? Doesn't that inconvenience them? The short answer is that it's up to the landlord, and what he wants for his tenants. Issues like this pop up all the time, and not just with respect to Jews. Should the school cafeteria serve fish on Fridays in March? Judge on a case by case basis. If there are lots of Othodox Jews in the building, and two elevators, it's a pretty easy decision. If there's one Orthodox Jew in the building, and one elevator, it's not likely the landlord will inconvenience the other tenants for the sake of one tenant's religion. If there are two observant Jews, and one of them is the landlord....tough call.

As a general principle, an observant Jew is obligated to follow the Law. If it's annoying to others, that doesn't really matter. The odds are that what annoys them is their own prejudice. However, if it creates health and safety issues, those override religious ritual requirements. If the secular law forbids him from following the Law, I'm not sure. Jewish traditions celebrate those who refused to bend to the authorities, like Mordechai in the Book of Esther, or medieval Jews who were burned rather than accepting Jesus during periodic persecutions, but it also celebrates those who outwardly lived as Christians while secretly remaining Jews. Not sure if there are general guidelines.
 
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Toke said:
What happens if you forget to unscrew the bulb in the refrigerator, or are there kosher refrigerators without lights or a timer on it?
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Just a thought.

Opening the door of the fridge causes cold air to rush out, which ultimately causes the compressor to start, making "fire"....
 
BTMO said:
Just a thought.

Opening the door of the fridge causes cold air to rush out, which ultimately causes the compressor to start, making "fire"....
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Yes, but perhaps it is so indirect and/or unsolvable that it does not matter.
 
Toke said:
Yes, but perhaps it is so indirect and/or unsolvable that it does not matter.
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Basically, that's it. That particular problem has been debated at length.

For people interested, I googled "shabbat"+"electricity" and got a pretty good wikipedia article on the subject (Shabbat is the favored transliteration these days among Jews. Jews rarely say "the sabbath".)

High point: Only the turning on of incandescent light bulbs is universally agreed to be a like starting a fire. Other forms of circuit completion are disputed. The orthodox community has some pretty common practices with regard to electricity based on customs of the Jewish community, not necessarily biblical law.


I have often wondered if some of this didn't start out as a sort of class envy. When electricity first appeared, I would guess rich people got electric lights before poor ones, which resulted in a situation where rich people had light more or less at will on the sabbath, while poor people had to sit in the dark because fires were forbidden. Similarly, every subsequent expansion of electrical ability,( telephones, electric appliances) would have gone first to the rich. Did this have an influence on those deciding whether or not electricity was a lot like fire? I don't think we will ever know, but it's something that I've wondered about.
 
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