Another cop murders a suspect

[lionking]

It's all too depressingly predictable. On a lighter note though, I was pleasantly surprised that a few usual-suspects surprised me by calling a spade a bloody shovel, which was nice.

This thread amply demonstrates that no matter how violent and blatant police action is, there will always be defenders. I just don't understand why the sanctity of each and every police action.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not much of a difference in critical thinking skills between stupid criminals that are cops and stupid criminals that aren't cops.

Hey police have won the right to discriminate against people who are too smart when hiring new officers. So what else can you expect?

 

[ponderingturtle]

This. However, I'll go with manslaughter, there is no pre-meditated intent here to make it murder.

That isn't generally the definitions of manslaughter vs murder. That has to do with intent vs accident. There are lots of murders that are not premeditated.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Re-listened to the prosecutor, corrections to my earlier post:

"I've been in this job for 30 years ..."
"This office has reviewed upwards of a hundred police shootings ..."

 

[varwoche]

...The prosecutor also said...

But for people who view black people as vermin, this is easily arm waved away because the prosecutor, and the cop's superiors, are supposedly co-opted by Blacklivesmatter.

 

[CORed]

I agree that he shouldn't have grabbed for the wheel, already said that, but I do believe that he felt in danger as the car moved forwards, and then over reacted. I don't see murder here because to me the action was a reaction to the car moving and him feeling endangered, not a pre-meditated and deliberate action to kill, but at the same time I don't believe that the level of danger means it was reasonable to use deadly force. He over reacted to the threat, hence manslaughter.

I would say second degree murder rather than manslaughter, but I agree there was no premeditation.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

And why would they patrol the neighborhood beyond campus?

I wonder if there was even any student housing there?

In the article it does say that campus police are allowed to patrol areas around campus where students might live.

 

[RandFan]

I see the "worthless criminal removed from society" argument has reared its head again. People making that argument get all huffy when I suggest that this is a radically utilitarian idea, and that it amounts to suggesting that we should let the cops loose and let them decide on the spot whether to execute criminals, and settle for the collateral damage, but if you make that argument after the fact, why not before it? They would probably get it right more often than they get it wrong. What's the problem?

There's an answer. Our brains have competing modules that help us determine the right course of action. Unfortunately, empathy is far too easy to suppress by our existing biases and once that's been suppressed the modules to rationalize behavior are employed to protect one's ego (I include myself in that). A study was performed whereby a story of genocide (Joshua and the battle of Jericho) was taken scene for scene from the Bible but the names were changed and it was set in China not Jericho. Jewish students were then asked to rate the morality of the battle which involved killing women and children. Answer: Immoral.

When given the original story the students were eager and sincere in their defense of the atrocity.

There is a thread in ISF on the study here.

 

[phunk]

Not sure about other states, but University of Illinois police have full law enforcement authority and are accredited by the state. They are a real police force, not glorified security guards. Large universities have real police.

Even my small school had a real police force.

 

[RandFan]

I'd say "hence a worthless criminal is removed from society."

This needs to be repeated and repeated often. This is the sentiment that we need to get out to people. Many people don't believe people actually think this way. They do and it needs to be known.

The officer may have overreacted a bit, but it was a highly charged, threatening and extremely rapid unfolding of events.

These events happen daily all over the world yet our officers are far more likely to kill in such events.

Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations

 

[RandFan]

I would say second degree murder rather than manslaughter, but I agree there was no premeditation.

It doesn't seem premeditated to me either based on the evidence presented thus far.

Deliberation and Premeditation

Whether a killer acted with the deliberation and premeditation required for first degree murder can only be determined on a case by case basis. The need for deliberation and premeditation does not mean that the perpetrator must contemplate at length or plan far ahead of the murder. Time enough to form the conscious intent to kill and then act on it after enough time for a reasonable person to second guess the decision typically suffices. While this can happen very quickly, deliberation and premeditation must occur before, and not at the same time as, the act of killing.

 

[Belz...]

It can also exonerate cops in the case of someone alleging excessive force or similar complaints. So such cameras can in fact protect both police (from malicious, false complaints) and the public (by showing when officers act improperly).

I remember a Judge Judy (I know) episode where a cop (well, actually two episodes with the same cop) is accused by a woman (a different one each time) of being unreasonable and rude and of giving her a ticket without cause. Problem is, the officer apparently records his stops as a matter of procedure, and the recording showed both times that the cop was nothing but professional and courteous, while the perp was rude and abusive and fully deserving of the ticket.

 

[RandFan]

I remember a Judge Judy (I know) episode where a cop (well, actually two episodes with the same cop) is accused by a woman (a different one each time) of being unreasonable and rude and of giving her a ticket without cause. Problem is, the officer apparently records his stops as a matter of procedure, and the recording showed both times that the cop was nothing but professional and courteous, while the perp was rude and abusive and fully deserving of the ticket.

I remember that. I was a court room show junkie. Wapner, Koch, Millian, Joe Black, etc., etc. I used to record them and watch them in marathon session driving my wife crazy.

Good memories.

 

[Belz...]

<starts post>

Uh oh.

As for the racial dynamic? Blacks are outrageously criminal as a group, so they have a reputation for criminality, and they have a lot of negative encounters with the cops. That's the natural, correct result of stupendous levels of criminality within a group.

There we go. I knew you wouldn't dissapoint.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not sure what the prosecutor's thinking was to charge the cop with murder vs manslaughter but he included manslaughter as a lesser charge option.

Premeditation need not be very far ahead of time. If one wanted to argue murder over manslaughter one could do so seeing the officer shooting in anger over the defiant attitude of leaving.

It's a very subtle difference. If one gets angry and in the heat of the moment a person is killed, that may not be premeditated.

But if one pulls a gun for no reason other than a show of force that was unnecessary, that could fall more along the line of an action of police brutality which if one then kills, is premeditated. Police are told, don't pull your gun unless you might need to use it, and if you pull the trigger, shoot to kill. That requires premeditation.

Claiming one felt in danger really should not be an excuse for over-reacting in every single circumstance. Listening to the defense attorney with the usual claim that the tape doesn't show all, and the cop lying that he was dragged, it just doesn't sit right. We can see the entire exchange from beginning to end. There isn't any part of it that didn't occur on the recording.

 

[jeffas69]

This needs to be repeated and repeated often. This is the sentiment that we need to get out to people. Many people don't believe people actually think this way. They do and it needs to be known.

These events happen daily all over the world yet our officers are far more likely to kill in such events.



The article you posted does not show how many US police are killed by criminals compared to these other first world nations in the same time frames. It also does not compare the rates of resisting arrest, murders, violent crime, number of gang members, etc. All of these numbers for the same first first world countries compared to the US I would guess are likely just as far out of whack.

 

[RandFan]

The article you posted does not show how many US police are killed by criminals compared to these other first world nations in the same time frames. It also does not compare the rates of resisting arrest, murders, violent crime, number of gang members, etc. All of these numbers for the same first first world countries compared to the US I would guess are likely just as far out of whack.

I addressed this. There was a time when our numbers were similiar to those of other nations. Then we decided to start a drug war and lock up people for non-violent crimes turning them into violent felons. The following video explains the facts about incarceration and crime rates. Mass Incarceration: Why Does The U.S. Jail So Many People?



Unlike Europe we decided to get tough on crime and by doing so created a nightmare. We now have an arms race with violent felons due in large part to the asinine drug war.

Why Do US Police Kill So Many People - Business Insider

 

[jeffas69]

Rand,

I don't disagree with any of that but your response to Tank made it sound like US police kill at a higher rate without considering the other factors that might account for the higher rate of violent confrontations with our citizens.

 

[dudalb]

This thread amply demonstrates that no matter how violent and blatant police action is, there will always be defenders. I just don't understand why the sanctity of each and every police action.

And I don;t understand why some people are so quick to condmen the police without waiting for the facts to come out.

The sad thing about people with political blinders is they don;t relise they are wearing them.

 

[RandFan]

Rand,

I don't disagree with any of that but your response to Tank made it sound like US police kill at a higher rate without considering the other factors that might account for the higher rate of violent confrontations with our citizens.

Because it is used as an excuse not to do anything. It assumes that the problem is only a bottom up one. I remember all the talk about three strikes laws, tougher drug sentencing laws, build more prisons rhetoric...

We wake up one day having diverged from other industrialized nations with higher rates of crime and incarceration and some want to blame black people and stick their heads in the sand. There is no mystery here. This has been a problem in the making for decades and now its here why can't we focus on what we know are many of the underlying causes.

• Stop the idiotic drug war.
• Stop stupid minimum sentencing guidelines.
• Fire bad police.
• Fire leaders who knowingly hire bad police or refuse to do a back ground check.

The problem was escalated top down and it will require a top down solution.