Another cop murders a suspect

[PhantomWolf]

Here's the proof that the gun was drawn after DeBose starts the car. You can see DeBose turning the key (A) and both of the officer's hands (B and C). No Gun drawn here.

This is at 2:42 into the video.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It's clear the cop's arm and gun are outside the window when he pulls the trigger.

I'm going to ask you to back this up. The officer reaches for the steering wheel, and then we can't see where his left arm is as his body is turned away from it. We can see his right arm, but how can you say with certainly that his left is not still in the car on the wheel?

See the screen grabs below. The first is the Officer reaching for the steering wheel, the second is about a second before the shooting, and shows the angle the body cam moves to as the officer's body rotates away from the steering wheel. You cannot honestly say where the officer's left arm is, but given the timing, the likely place is still inside the car on the wheel he just grabbed.

Now you could make for a case that he shouldn't have grabbed for the wheel, and I might even agree, but that comes to a case of 20/20 hindsight and Monday morning Quarter-backing.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

More that Marcia Clarke and Christopher Darden thought they had a slam dunk and acted like they were going to be stars (media stars). They were stars, just not in the way they hoped.

Yeah, that too.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The full, I assume unedited video, is now on the OP's link. There was no scuffle. Guilty as charged, life.
The cop goes on to say to another cop, 'I had my arm trapped in the car as he drove away...'. A blatant lie. Did the murderer not know his cam was running?

As above, please show your evidence since from the video, it appears that the officer's left arm grabs for the wheel inside the car when DeBose starts the engine, and there is no ability to judge what is happening to that arm in the few seconds to the shooting.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm going to ask you to back this up. The officer reaches for the steering wheel, and then we can't see where his left arm is as his body is turned away from it. We can see his right arm, but how can you say with certainly that his left is not still in the car on the wheel?

See the screen grabs below. The first is the Officer reaching for the steering wheel, the second is about a second before the shooting, and shows the angle the body cam moves to as the officer's body rotates away from the steering wheel. You cannot honestly say where the officer's left arm is, but given the timing, the likely place is still inside the car on the wheel he just grabbed.

Now you could make for a case that he shouldn't have grabbed for the wheel, and I might even agree, but that comes to a case of 20/20 hindsight and Monday morning Quarter-backing.

You're trying too hard. The prosecutor said the cops hands/arms were not caught in any way shape or form.

And when the shot is heard, it looks like he's even taken a step back from the car.

Also, I think your estimate of "when DeBose starts the engine, and there is no ability to judge what is happening to that arm in the few seconds to the shooting" is more likely less than one second, and clearly less than two.

 

[PhantomWolf]

That is accurate and doesn't paint a very good picture for the cop.

As soon as the cop saw that the guy was going to try to run he pulls his gun and shoots. The whole point of cameras is that you can later arrest the runner without having to kill anyone because you have them on film. Or maybe the cameras really are there only to catch cops behaving badly.

This isn't accurate either. Go through the video slower. As Debose turns on the car, the officer's reaction is to grab the steering wheel (probably not a good idea, but understandable). He then orders DeBose to stop twice as he draws his gun. He then fires, as the car moves forwards claiming he thought he was going to be dragged under.

This is why I say manslaughter not murder. He should have just got back and then chased the guy, rather then trying to grab the wheel and stop him.

 

[Babbylonian]

Now you could make for a case that he shouldn't have grabbed for the wheel, and I might even agree, but that comes to a case of 20/20 hindsight and Monday morning Quarter-backing.

That's a pretty uncharitable way to describe wanting police officers to follow reasonable procedures for both the safety of civilians and for their own safety. I don't want police officers to get hurt and that's why I wouldn't want one reaching into a car that he has any reason to think might start moving.

Beyond that, the second he pulled his gun he was far over the line. That's why he's not likely to get away with this murder.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You're trying too hard. The prosecutor said the cops hands/arms were not caught in any way shape or form.

I'll agree that they weren't caught, never said they were, I said he'd grabbed the wheel. My point is whether his arm was in the car. The "not caught" is irrelevant to your claim... "It's clear the cop's arm and gun are outside the window" These two things are not the same. And in fact, rechecking I have absolute proof that his arm was inside the car at the time of the fatal shot. See grabs below.

And when the shot is heard, it looks like he's even taken a step back from the car.

No, he's leaning forwards, close to the car, trying to grab DeBose by the shirt, see grabs below.

Also, I think your estimate of "when DeBose starts the engine, and there is no ability to judge what is happening to that arm in the few seconds to the shooting" is more likely less than one second, and clearly less than two.

Actually it's 3-4 seconds. The action to put the key in occurs at 2:41-42. You hear the engine start at 2:43, the shot is fired at 2:46


The grabs show immediately before and after shot.

 

[PhantomWolf]

That's a pretty uncharitable way to describe wanting police officers to follow reasonable procedures for both the safety of civilians and for their own safety. I don't want police officers to get hurt and that's why I wouldn't want one reaching into a car that he has any reason to think might start moving.

Beyond that, the second he pulled his gun he was far over the line. That's why he's not likely to get away with this murder.

I agree that he shouldn't have grabbed for the wheel, already said that, but I do believe that he felt in danger as the car moved forwards, and then over reacted. I don't see murder here because to me the action was a reaction to the car moving and him feeling endangered, not a pre-meditated and deliberate action to kill, but at the same time I don't believe that the level of danger means it was reasonable to use deadly force. He over reacted to the threat, hence manslaughter.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

First screen-grab in post #62, he's not grabbing the wheel. His hand is inside the car but not going for the steering wheel unless you make up what happened next.

In the screen-shot with the gun, you can see his left arm is not caught on anything. The window is wide open. That cop's hand is not caught on anything and he wasn't in danger of being run over.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I agree that he shouldn't have grabbed for the wheel, already said that, but I do believe that he felt in danger as the car moved forwards, and then over reacted. I don't see murder here because to me the action was a reaction to the car moving and him feeling endangered, not a pre-meditated and deliberate action to kill, but at the same time I don't believe that the level of danger means it was reasonable to use deadly force. He over reacted to the threat, hence manslaughter.

This is where I'm ending up on this one.
I don't see racism, just a cop overreacting.
I don't agree with the driver's "I didn't even do anything." Yes, he did.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I'm surprised to hear people stating so confidently that this is murder, etc. Seems entirely baseless and silly to me.

I made a .gif of the relevant portion of the video, with slowed down timing:

It's still a bit difficult to see everything, but from my first viewing of the video it was perfectly clear to me that the officer was entangled with the vehicle in some way as it began to speed off. This is not even debatable. He gets dragged and knocked over by the vehicle driving off. He was put in danger by the vehicle's movement, and could've found himself getting driven over by it if the suspect had taken the right sort of jerky turn, and the cop had gotten pulled under the left tires.

Now, the one thing I will absolutely concede is that it seems like he was only really stuck to the vehicle because he himself was grabbing hold of something inside the car. To me it looked like he had ahold of the seatbelt, but perhaps it was the steering wheel or perhaps he went from the one to the other.

Even if he was only being dragged because he was holding on, ultimately the responsibility for things turning so crazy is on the criminal in the driver's seat. He endangered an officer's life by setting that vehicle in motion while the officer was not only right next to it, but holding on.

Everything happens VERY fast, and I don't see how you get "murder" out of an officer's split second, instinctive reaction to the suspect putting him in serious physical danger through his actions.

I think shooting the suspect was pretty much a reflex, and very impulsive. That sounds like it automatically makes it a bad move, but I'm not so sure it does.

I'd say this is the sort of thing that happens when you do the sort of stupidity he did. I'm sick and tired of us celebrating and making excuses for criminals.

As for the racial dynamic? Blacks are outrageously criminal as a group, so they have a reputation for criminality, and they have a lot of negative encounters with the cops. That's the natural, correct result of stupendous levels of criminality within a group.

Some people wish everyone could be judged purely as an individual, and never as a representative of a group. That's not reality, it's not realistic, and its not how the world works. The police will always have a different posture toward a 25 year old white man than they do toward a 75 year old white woman, too. This is entirely appropriate and normal. Even if we all agreed it was wrong, it still isn't something we can avoid. It's human nature.

If blacks want to stop getting shot by police so often, I'd recommend a dramatic drop in black criminality. There are almost no example videos of black suspects getting shot where they had no option to come out of the situation just fine, if they'd merely complied with the officer and with the law. That's the secret of "white privilege" btw.

In this case, there is absolutely no doubt based on the video that this suspect could have come through this stop just fine if he hadn't been such a law-breaking idiot.

I find the idea that this police officer's life should be ruined on the account of him possibly making a less than perfect decision in the heat of a dangerous moment as he was dragged by a car, being charged with murder, losing his job, his family thrown into turmoil - all for the sake of some 2 bit criminal - to be horrifying. What percentage of the people calling for this outcome have ever been put in a situation like that or would ever take a job where such an event was possible? Where any person you pull over could end up just shooting you in the face before you even realize they are a threat?

Let's be real. The only way we are going to get the sort of people we need in the sort of quantity we need them, for the job of police officer, is to include people who may not strike all of you as the PERFECT specimen. There's going to be a lot of overlap between people willing to take a job like that, and people who may to YOUR mind seem a little trigger happy or aggressive.

As long as officers still provide everyone they interact with a way to come through the interaction just fine (physically I mean) - that being the route of compliance and acting like a sane adult - then I don't see the issue.

This officer is being charged, indeed, because of #BlackLivesMatter and fear of the black "community" manifesting its outrageous criminality in a more focused, concentrated way than its normal steady drip, in the form of riots. That isn't a good thing. We're heading toward a society where policing this group is even more impossible than it is now.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I agree that he shouldn't have grabbed for the wheel, already said that, but I do believe that he felt in danger as the car moved forwards, and then over reacted. I don't see murder here because to me the action was a reaction to the car moving and him feeling endangered, not a pre-meditated and deliberate action to kill, but at the same time I don't believe that the level of danger means it was reasonable to use deadly force. He over reacted to the threat, hence manslaughter.

Great post until the last bit, IMO.

I'd say "hence a worthless criminal is removed from society."

The officer may have overreacted a bit, but it was a highly charged, threatening and extremely rapid unfolding of events.

I can't even see him needing to lose his job over this. Let alone do jail time.

Absolutely ridiculous point our society has gotten to in its cop-hatred and criminal-loving.

First screen-grab in post #62, he's not grabbing the wheel. His hand is inside the car but not going for the steering wheel unless you make up what happened next.

In the screen-shot with the gun, you can see his left arm is not caught on anything. The window is wide open. That cop's hand is not caught on anything and he wasn't in danger of being run over.

In those couple of seconds, his instinct to try to prevent the suspect from driving off and his reflex of grabbing onto the wheel or whatever he grabbed onto, is essentially the same thing as being caught and hooked to the car. You really cannot say what the body and reflexes will cause you to do in a situation like that. Grabbing and holding on were likely not really a "choice" in the way we'd think of a choice. It was instinctive, and the end result was the same as if he had the seat-belt wrapped around his arm: he was attached to the car and in danger of possibly being run over.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Ladies and gentlemen, the (probably) successful defense argument...

 

[steve s]

He gets dragged....

Where? He falls down. He's not dragged.

He was put in danger by the vehicle's movement,

B.S. The car doesn't drive away until AFTER the shot is fired.

Steve S

 

[Babbylonian]

It's murder because in mere seconds he decided to draw, aim, and fire his weapon at someone he pulled over for a missing front license plate and whose only reasonably suspected crimes might have been driving without a license and preparing to flee. I don't give two ***** what the driver was doing during those seconds unless they involved pulling out a weapon. If the murderer put himself into possible jeopardy, that's on him and not on the potentially fleeing suspect. Note that the car didn't start moving until the murder was committed (as steve s notes while I'm typing this).

We need more police officers doing time in prison and this seems like a good example of that.

 

[Hungry81]

Great post until the last bit, IMO.

I'd say "hence a worthless criminal is removed from society."

The officer may have overreacted a bit, but it was a highly charged, threatening and extremely rapid unfolding of events.

I can't even see him needing to lose his job over this. Let alone do jail time.

Absolutely ridiculous point our society has gotten to in its cop-hatred and criminal-loving.



In those couple of seconds, his instinct to try to prevent the suspect from driving off and his reflex of grabbing onto the wheel or whatever he grabbed onto, is essentially the same thing as being caught and hooked to the car. You really cannot say what the body and reflexes will cause you to do in a situation like that. Grabbing and holding on were likely not really a "choice" in the way we'd think of a choice. It was instinctive, and the end result was the same as if he had the seat-belt wrapped around his arm: he was attached to the car and in danger of possibly being run over.

He didnt over react a bit he totally over reacted.
The cop handled the drive off terribly and should be charged with murder.

 

[PhantomWolf]

First screen-grab in post #62, he's not grabbing the wheel. His hand is inside the car but not going for the steering wheel unless you make up what happened next.

In the screen-shot with the gun, you can see his left arm is not caught on anything. The window is wide open. That cop's hand is not caught on anything and he wasn't in danger of being run over.

However you have changed your horse without actually admitting that your initial claim was wrong, that the cop's arm wasn't in the car, when clearly it was.

What the arm was doing or whether it was caught is irrelevant to your claim that it wasn't in the car. How about you actually accept that your initial claim was bogus?

It appears that his arm was "caught" because he was first holding the wheel, which is where he was aiming when he leaned in, and then as the car moved forward he left go and grabbed DeBose's shirt or seatbelt. So no, it wasn't caught, but it was inside the car, which you claimed it wasn't.

 

[PhantomWolf]

B.S. The car doesn't drive away until AFTER the shot is fired

I'd like to see you prove this one, It goes into gear before the shot is fired, and he yells stop twice, but the any actually movement is, IMO, impossible to determine as to happening or not due to the movement of the Camera. There simply is no stationary reference frame to determine if the car is moving or not.

 

[bruto]

This. However, I'll go with manslaughter, there is no pre-meditated intent here to make it murder. He fires when the driver starts the car and put it in gear. Watch the video closely. DeBose is putting his right hand to the key at the same time as he pulls the door closed with his left. The car then starts, and the reaction begins, followed by the shot. The gun is not out when the car is started, but the officer well and truly over reacts by drawing and shooting. I can understand that having a car drive off on you when you are right there is dangerous, but going to a gun, no, too much. He should have backed off, headed back to his car and chased the guy down.

Having said that, the driver isn't totally innocent. He was in the process of running for no apparent reason. If he was suspended, so what? It's a ticket, big deal, running isn't worth your life, or someone else's.

This is, IMO, another result of the US's gun culture. USAers go for their guns far too fast, and not just the cops, the public do it too.

However having said that, it's still not reasonable to fear for your life when pulled over. These incidents are a fraction of a percentage compared to the number of interactions and traffic stops that occur peacefully and without incident every single day, even between White Cops and Black drivers.

Of course we'll never know the real reason, since the driver was killed, but perhaps he was afraid that the cop would beat him up or worse if he pulled him out of the car. Unfortunately, that may not have been a miscall on the driver's part. His mistake may well have been believing he could get away before the cop shot him.

It's a difficult case for the cop here. What can he say? There was no good reason for the man to fear for his life, so I killed him for his misjudgment?