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Another cop murders a suspect

Skeptic Tank, that slo-mo is one of the best views of what happened but you seem to think it is the people in the forum or the public calling it murder. It was the prosecutor who called it murder. He said he'd seen hundreds (thousands?) of police shootings and this one was blatantly murder.

"entangled" No, he's not. At most his left hand is on the door jam just as the shot is fired.

The prosecutor also said the victim was dead before the car took off, he died instantly with the one shot to the head and you can see that in the video before the car lurches forward.

PhantomWolf, regardless if one arm was inside the window, not a single one of your stills nor Skeptic Tank's slo-mo show the cop's arm caught in anything.

You're both swimming upstream. If you have an argument, argue with the prosecutor. I'm sure the defense attorney will argue the same things. Never ever ever doubt the cop. :rolleyes:
 
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I'd like to see you prove this one, It goes into gear before the shot is fired, and he yells stop twice, but the any actually movement is, IMO, impossible to determine as to happening or not due to the movement of the Camera. There simply is no stationary reference frame to determine if the car is moving or not.
You need to look again at Skeptic Tank's gif. The victim falls down to the passenger side of the car before it moves forward. And again, the prosecutor who has access to the original and professional analysis said in the news conference, the vic was dead before the car moved forward.
 
I'd like to see you prove this one,

Go to post #68. The second pic that M.G. posted is taken after the shot is fired. The cop is ahead of the driver's position. If the car had been speeding away, the driver would be ahead of the cop.

Steve S
 
Originally Posted by welshdean
The full, I assume unedited video, is now on the OP's link. There was no scuffle. Guilty as charged, life.
The cop goes on to say to another cop, 'I had my arm trapped in the car as he drove away...'. A blatant lie. Did the murderer not know his cam was running?
As above, please show your evidence since from the video, it appears that the officer's left arm grabs for the wheel inside the car when DeBose starts the engine, and there is no ability to judge what is happening to that arm in the few seconds to the shooting.



Take another look at your pictures, where is his hand 'trapped'.
 
Go to post #68. The second pic that M.G. posted is taken after the shot is fired. The cop is ahead of the driver's position. If the car had been speeding away, the driver would be ahead of the cop.

Steve S
Also in the same post, it looks like the cop has his hand on the vic's arm or is trying to grab it. Does anyone think that cop fired while his own hand was in the line of fire?

He pulled his arm away then fired making his arm in no way entangled.
 
It's still a bit difficult to see everything, but from my first viewing of the video it was perfectly clear to me that the officer was entangled with the vehicle in some way as it began to speed off.
I do not see the officer's left hand entangled in anything at all.

This is not even debatable.
it is debatable, don't go truther on us here.

He gets dragged and knocked over by the vehicle driving off.
I don't see him dragged. It appears he pushed away from the car as it started to move.

as for the racial dynamic? Blacks are outrageously criminal as a group, so they have a reputation for criminality, and they have a lot of negative encounters with the cops. That's the natural, correct result of stupendous levels of criminality within a group.
Really? Look here; https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...e-u.s.-2012/persons-arrested/persons-arrested
In 2012, 69.3 percent of all persons arrested were white, 28.1 percent were black, and the remaining 2.6 percent were of other races
While a higher percentage of blacks are arrested for various crimes than whites, with nearly 70% of arrests being white it seems that those white guys should be considered the greater threat at a stop.

In this case, there is absolutely no doubt based on the video that this suspect could have come through this stop just fine if he hadn't been such a law-breaking idiot.
You assume too much; why not find out more about the officer who shot the guy first?

I find the idea that this police officer's life should be ruined on the account of him possibly making a less than perfect decision
Blowing a man's brains out because he disobeyed police orders and tried to drive away is not a "less than perfect decision".

in the heat of a dangerous moment as he was dragged by a car,
Not being dragged by the car.

There's going to be a lot of overlap between people willing to take a job like that, and people who may to YOUR mind seem a little trigger happy or aggressive.
This guy looked very trigger happy. Why sugar coat it?

This officer is being charged,.....
Maybe the city just doesn't want trigger happy people wearing a badge? I'd like to see you defend this guy after he blows away someone you care for.

Ranb
 
I'd say "hence a worthless criminal is removed from society."
Evidence that he was worthless? I'm sure you'll eventually find some, but what did you have prior to making this post other than that he's black?

According to CNN;
Over the past 20 years, Dubose has been charged more than 75 times in Hamilton County. Most of the charges were indeed non-violent: driving without a license, joyriding, having windows tinted too dark, misdemeanor drug possession. An assault charge in 2013 was dismissed. He’s faced eviction seven times, and he had his license suspended indefinitely in January by the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles.
Yeah, he was a bad man. Not bad enough to get what he got though.

The officer may have overreacted a bit, but it was a highly charged, threatening and extremely rapid unfolding of events.
I think a more rational officer would have kept his finger off the trigger and got help chasing him down instead of shooting him in the head and refusing to provide first aid.

I can't even see him needing to lose his job over this. Let alone do jail time.
That's because about all you know is that a white guy killed a black guy; or that is what you are trying to boil it all down to anyway

In those couple of seconds, his instinct to try to prevent the suspect from driving off and his reflex of grabbing onto the wheel or whatever he grabbed onto, is essentially the same thing as being caught and hooked to the car.
Really? It is instinctive to grab a car to keep it from moving off? The same as being caught and hooked? Please make a recording of your own voice repeating these claims so you can hear how stupid they sound.

You really cannot say what the body and reflexes will cause you to do in a situation like that. ....
It appears that his reflex action was to pull a trigger. We don't need anyone like that on the street in a situation like this.

Ranb
 
I'm surprised to hear people stating so confidently that this is murder, etc. Seems entirely baseless and silly to me.

I made a .gif of the relevant portion of the video, with slowed down timing:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/tGB6FIo.gif[/qimg]

It's still a bit difficult to see everything, but from my first viewing of the video it was perfectly clear to me that the officer was entangled with the vehicle in some way as it began to speed off. This is not even debatable. He gets dragged and knocked over by the vehicle driving off. He was put in danger by the vehicle's movement, and could've found himself getting driven over by it if the suspect had taken the right sort of jerky turn, and the cop had gotten pulled under the left tires.

Now, the one thing I will absolutely concede is that it seems like he was only really stuck to the vehicle because he himself was grabbing hold of something inside the car. To me it looked like he had ahold of the seatbelt, but perhaps it was the steering wheel or perhaps he went from the one to the other.

Even if he was only being dragged because he was holding on, ultimately the responsibility for things turning so crazy is on the criminal in the driver's seat. He endangered an officer's life by setting that vehicle in motion while the officer was not only right next to it, but holding on.

Everything happens VERY fast, and I don't see how you get "murder" out of an officer's split second, instinctive reaction to the suspect putting him in serious physical danger through his actions.

I think shooting the suspect was pretty much a reflex, and very impulsive. That sounds like it automatically makes it a bad move, but I'm not so sure it does.

I'd say this is the sort of thing that happens when you do the sort of stupidity he did. I'm sick and tired of us celebrating and making excuses for criminals.

As for the racial dynamic? Blacks are outrageously criminal as a group, so they have a reputation for criminality, and they have a lot of negative encounters with the cops. That's the natural, correct result of stupendous levels of criminality within a group.

Some people wish everyone could be judged purely as an individual, and never as a representative of a group. That's not reality, it's not realistic, and its not how the world works. The police will always have a different posture toward a 25 year old white man than they do toward a 75 year old white woman, too. This is entirely appropriate and normal. Even if we all agreed it was wrong, it still isn't something we can avoid. It's human nature.

If blacks want to stop getting shot by police so often, I'd recommend a dramatic drop in black criminality. There are almost no example videos of black suspects getting shot where they had no option to come out of the situation just fine, if they'd merely complied with the officer and with the law. That's the secret of "white privilege" btw.

In this case, there is absolutely no doubt based on the video that this suspect could have come through this stop just fine if he hadn't been such a law-breaking idiot.

I find the idea that this police officer's life should be ruined on the account of him possibly making a less than perfect decision in the heat of a dangerous moment as he was dragged by a car, being charged with murder, losing his job, his family thrown into turmoil - all for the sake of some 2 bit criminal - to be horrifying. What percentage of the people calling for this outcome have ever been put in a situation like that or would ever take a job where such an event was possible? Where any person you pull over could end up just shooting you in the face before you even realize they are a threat?

Let's be real. The only way we are going to get the sort of people we need in the sort of quantity we need them, for the job of police officer, is to include people who may not strike all of you as the PERFECT specimen. There's going to be a lot of overlap between people willing to take a job like that, and people who may to YOUR mind seem a little trigger happy or aggressive.

As long as officers still provide everyone they interact with a way to come through the interaction just fine (physically I mean) - that being the route of compliance and acting like a sane adult - then I don't see the issue.

This officer is being charged, indeed, because of #BlackLivesMatter and fear of the black "community" manifesting its outrageous criminality in a more focused, concentrated way than its normal steady drip, in the form of riots. That isn't a good thing. We're heading toward a society where policing this group is even more impossible than it is now.

Is this a poe?
I can give you a few good reasons why black males are over-represented in criminal cases, here's a few from Mark Furhman, the racist cop that prepared OJ's case:
Mark Fuhrman: "We stopped the choke because a bunch of ******* have a bunch of those organizations in the South End and because all ******* were choked out and killed— twelve in ten years. Really extraordinary, isn't it?"

Mark Fuhrman: "Westwood is gone. The ******* have discovered it."

Mark Fuhrman: "There is going to be a massacre in the future and they know that. There is the Rolling Sixties, a ****** group, they went into a sporting goods store and stole fifty Uzis, 3,000 rounds."

Mark Fuhrman: "First thing, anything out of a ******'s mouth for the first five or six sentences is a *********** lie. . . . You keep choking him until he tells you the truth. You know, it is kind of funny, but a lot of policemen will get a kick out of it."

Mark Fuhrman: "We basically got impatient with him being so *********** stupid. ... So we .. .just went the 'scenic route' to the station. . . . Dana goes, 'No blood, Mark.' 'No problem, not even any marks, Dana.' Just body shots. Did you ever try to find a bruise on a ******? It's pretty tough, huh?"
Highlighted words are the 'N' word.
The thing is he's not alone in his views, there are plenty of racists out there that are adamant that ...
Blacks are outrageously criminal as a group, so they have a reputation for criminality, and they have a lot of negative encounters with the cops. That's the natural, correct result of stupendous levels of criminality within a group.
 
You're both swimming upstream. If you have an argument, argue with the prosecutor. I'm sure the defense attorney will argue the same things. Never ever ever doubt the cop. :rolleyes:

I would have been exceedingly disappointed if there hadn't have been at least two die-hard cop apologists defending the indefensible in this thread. I'm glad to see ISF maintaining its high standards :thumbsup:
 
I see the "worthless criminal removed from society" argument has reared its head again. People making that argument get all huffy when I suggest that this is a radically utilitarian idea, and that it amounts to suggesting that we should let the cops loose and let them decide on the spot whether to execute criminals, and settle for the collateral damage, but if you make that argument after the fact, why not before it? They would probably get it right more often than they get it wrong. What's the problem?
 
Slightly off-topic: The officer was with the University of Cleveland Police. Why the **** do we have Campus Charlies with guns?

Not sure about other states, but University of Illinois police have full law enforcement authority and are accredited by the state. They are a real police force, not glorified security guards. Large universities have real police.
 
While it may seem harsh to end up with criminal negligence doing your job as opposed to civil negligence, if some of these cops don't start facing more consequences for needlessly shooting people than just getting fired, it'll never end.
 
Go to post #68. The second pic that M.G. posted is taken after the shot is fired. The cop is ahead of the driver's position. If the car had been speeding away, the driver would be ahead of the cop.

Steve S

When you can't even get the poster correct, why should I accept your conclusion?

No one is contenting it was speeding away, merely moving. Autos start moving as soon as they are in gear and the foot brake is released. It is quite possible that the cop was moving backwards with the car as it started rolling forwards.
 
Is this a poe?
I can give you a few good reasons why black males are over-represented in criminal cases, here's a few from Mark Furhman, the racist cop that prepared OJ's case:

Highlighted words are the 'N' word.
The thing is he's not alone in his views, there are plenty of racists out there that are adamant that ...

I'll give you better ones. Crime is causally linked to poverty and income disparity. Blacks are over represented in poverty, and generally have lower incomes than Whites, even comparing poor with poor. Crime also has causal links with fractured homes and again, Blacks are over represented in fractured homes and solo parenting. Lower education levels is also a causal factor in crime, and we see lower education rates in young Blacks. Finally, males are over represented in crimes. This means that as a result, we expect to see Black Males over represented in crime stats.

Of course that it's a reinforcing system doesn't help. With the young black males ending up in jail, this fractures homes, increasing solo parenting, decreases income for family landing them in poverty, and harms any future income prospects keeping them trapped in a poverty and crime cycle.

It is the cycle of poor education, leading to poverty, leading to crime, leading to broke homes, leading to poor education that is the problem. How we break that.... good question.
 
I would have been exceedingly disappointed if there hadn't have been at least two die-hard cop apologists defending the indefensible in this thread. I'm glad to see ISF maintaining its high standards :thumbsup:

Interestingly I knew in advance what the most likely name would be. I spend too much time here : i know the people a little too well.
 
Interestingly I knew in advance what the most likely name would be. I spend too much time here : i know the people a little too well.


It's all too depressingly predictable. On a lighter note though, I was pleasantly surprised that a few usual-suspects surprised me by calling a spade a bloody shovel, which was nice.
 
No one is contenting it was speeding away, merely moving. Autos start moving as soon as they are in gear and the foot brake is released. It is quite possible that the cop was moving backwards with the car as it started rolling forwards.



He was facing the window, so he would have to have been side-stepping (without translating any apparent motion to his upper body where the camera was mounted, which is a neat trick); but the important thing is that he wasn't getting dragged.
 

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