Ancient Pyramids and other structures, astronomical alignment & similarity.

[Akhenaten]

<polite snip>


ETA: The other problem has been that as soon as someone shoots down one of KotA's "hypotheses", he responds with, "so what about this" or "is there any similarity between these" without actaully considering the questions before posting.

Yeah, but that's what we do here.

KotA works just as hard as any of us here, collecting sow's ears and bringing them in for us to make silk purses with.

And despite appearances, everyone here is learning, and I mean everyone.

No offence was intended earlier, mate. My apologies if I managed it anyway.

 

[Wildy]

Whatever rocks your feathered battleship I guess, but I really don't understand the intent of this post at all.

Is that the Quetzalcoatl-class battleship?

AND the smooth or perfect pyramid was the final evolution of the structure in Egypt. There ARE indeed step pyramids in Egypt.

That we have similar structures of similar sizes COULD BE evidence that the two cultures had contact. It certainly does rule out this possibility.

One similarity is not evidence of contact.

Either the Egyptians were far greater seafarers then they let on, or the Mesoamericans were able to travel the vast distances to Egypt without leaving any evidence at all, then yes, you are correct that the possibility stands.

However, unless the Mesoamericans visited after 2611 BCE but before at most 2589 BCE then it's rather strange that they would take the step pyramid back to the Americas rather then the true pyramid.

Just look at the Nubian pyramids. They were influenced by the Egyptian ones, but they are true pyramids only smaller and have a steeper angle.

It just seems illogical. Just like the sudden change in usage. If anything you should be claiming a link between the ziggurats of Mesopotamia with the pyramids of Mesoamerica rather then the pyramids of Egypt.

 

[Akhenaten]

Perspective IS everything...

Scallywag.

 

[Akhenaten]

Is that the Quetzalcoatl-class battleship?

Yes. Beautiful plumage, the Quetzalcoatl.

 

[Marduk]

Now, the Mesopotamian ziggurats were contemporary(ish) with the building of Egyptian pyramids, but since their purpose is quite different, as is much of their structure (ziggurats have ramps, for instance), is there any evidence that one influenced the other as far as structure shape is concerned?

the oldest Ziggurat dates to 2900bce and is in Iran, part of the Elamite civilisation, so they predate the Pyramids by just a few hundred years, but this is where there is a connection, Ziggurats are known to symbolise mountains, the word for mountain Kur is part of the original name Zi Kur (house of life). This is also true of Egyptian pyramids especially those at Giza which according to Khufu at least are supposed to symbolise the Horizon which consists of mountains. The Mesoamerican Mayan temples are also symbolic mountains, in all three cases the best evidence points to a general belief dating back to the paleolithic that Gods inhabit mountainous regions making mountain shapes sacred in of themselves. This is true of many ancient cultures and leads to the idea that "Gods come down" waved by so many UFOlogists who don't know what theyre talking about.

 

[Moss]

the oldest Ziggurat dates to 2900bce and is in Iran, part of the Elamite civilisation, so they predate the Pyramids by just a few hundred years, but this is where there is a connection, Ziggurats are known to symbolise mountains, the word for mountain Kur is part of the original name Zi Kur (house of life). This is also true of Egyptian pyramids especially those at Giza which according to Khufu at least are supposed to symbolise the Horizon which consists of mountains. The Mesoamerican Mayan temples are also symbolic mountains, in all three cases the best evidence points to a general belief dating back to the paleolithic that Gods inhabit mountainous regions making mountain shapes sacred in of themselves. This is true of many ancient cultures and leads to the idea that "Gods come down" waved by so many UFOlogists who don't know what theyre talking about.

Maybe I'm talking out of my behind, but many Celtic and some Germanic holy places/temples seem to have been upon hills and mountains. But I suppose that's also partly because the same places make good defensible positions for settlements.

 

[Toke]

Here is one example of well defended places that were found really holy.
http://www.wallpaperdojo.com/images/photography/mont_saint_michel_france_1280x1024.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Saint-Michel

 

[Marduk]

Maybe I'm talking out of my behind, but many Celtic and some Germanic holy places/temples seem to have been upon hills and mountains. But I suppose that's also partly because the same places make good defensible positions for settlements.

There was a trade network across the prehistoric world linking up everyone in one direction or another going back at least as as far as 10,000bce. Ideas about Gods no doubt passed along with trade items.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution
More and more evidence for this is accumulating as archaeological techniques become more refined. There was a little known token system that was in use across the fertile crescent and as far away as the balkans which is believed to be the basis for Sumerian math (they really didn't invent it, just found a unique way of writing it down)
http://menic.utexas.edu/ghazal/Chap1/dsb/chapter1.html

Civilisations do not exist in a vacuum,

Personally I think the gods connection to mountains may have originated with volcanos, but that far back without any written evidence thats just speculation on my part. In central Europe as well with the Caucasus being too high for anyone to reach the steppes of the mountains which were formed by vulcanism were extremely fertile leading to many settlements around them so its quite natural for worship to be centred on the BIGGEST THING IN YOUR WORLD, the Sumerian word for Steppe dates to 3000bce and can be found here
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html

 

[Toke]

?

 

[Akhenaten]

Now, the Mesopotamian ziggurats were contemporary(ish) with the building of Egyptian pyramids, but since their purpose is quite different, as is much of their structure (ziggurats have ramps, for instance), is there any evidence that one influenced the other as far as structure shape is concerned?

the oldest Ziggurat dates to 2900bce and is in Iran, part of the Elamite civilisation, so they predate the Pyramids by just a few hundred years, but this is where there is a connection, Ziggurats are known to symbolise mountains, the word for mountain Kur is part of the original name Zi Kur (house of life).

That's not a connection though.

That both ziggurats and Pyramids are stylised mountains (which is untrue) would not signify a relationship between the two types of structure, such that one was influenced by the other.

This is also true of Egyptian pyramids especially those at Giza which according to Khufu at least are supposed to symbolise the Horizon which consists of mountains.

Umm . . .

The horizon in Egypt can be described a few ways, but mountainous is a new one on me.

Khufu strengthened this divine link. He proclaimed himself the incarnation of Re, the sun god. He called his pyramid the Akhet Khufu — the Horizon of Khufu. He expected to rise as the Sun each day from his own horizon — the Great Pyramid.

Linky

Imhotep chose for King Djoser the site on which his pyramid would be constructed, at Saqqara, near the early mastabas of the officials. Dating ca. 2680 B.C.E, the pyramid is thought to have originally been planned as a mastaba which underwent six different stages in planning that would itself lead to a transition from mastaba to pyramid.

Linky


In other words, Pyramids were just a natural progression from the mastaba (bench). If they'd been thought of as artificial mountains from the beginning, then they would have been built that way.

They weren't

The Mesoamerican Mayan temples are also symbolic mountains,

Cite?

. . . in all three cases the best evidence points to a general belief dating back to the paleolithic that Gods inhabit mountainous regions making mountain shapes sacred in of themselves.

Apparently not.

This is true of many ancient cultures and leads to the idea that "Gods come down" waved by so many UFOlogists who don't know what theyre talking about.

Non sequitur

 

[Marduk]

[qimg]http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/psl/img/popup/Obzy.png[/qimg]
?

sorry, meant to post the direct link
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1199.html


interestingly though that cuneiform you posted helps make my point, its the same word which I was referring to but preceeded by the star which is the symbol of heaven and God.
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e938.html
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e347.html

 

[Marduk]

That's not a connection though.

That both ziggurats and Pyramids are stylised mountains (which is untrue) would not signify a relationship between the two types of structure, such that one was influenced by the other.

people have eyes, they make comparisons with things they can see and understand

The horizon in Egypt can be described a few ways, but mountainous is a new one on me.

The Egyptian symbol for horizon is the Akhet
seen here between the two cats

heres Giza again

are you about to deny that those two big lumpy things depicted in the akhet are mountains
heres the Hieroglyph for mountain
Djew =

In other words, Pyramids were just a natural progression from the mastaba (bench). If they'd been thought of as artificial mountains from the beginning, then they would have been built that way.

So when the architectural knowledge didn't exist they would have built them that way ?

perhaps youre missing the inference, that just because something has an origin in one area, it doesn't mean that it can't change over time to gain new symbolism and are you forgetting why the Egyptians believed that mountains are sacred, what is a mound and what did Atum do on one
anyway, I thought the "bench" translation for mastaba was arabic, not egyptian, didn't they just call them MR which meant "mound"


you want me to cite that Mesoamericans thought that the gods lived on mountains ?
thats common knowledge

take for example the orientation of geoglyphs at Nazca towards the mountains surrounding the plain, or the very well attested beliefs of the Atzec deity Tlaloc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
probably going to be easier for you to just google "Mesoamerica mountain gods" though, theres so many cites there that posting them here would take a long long time. Maybe you should read the Popul vuh where the Gods create the mountains first from a primordial sea in exactly the same way that Atum creates a mound from the primordial sea in the "heliopolitan" cosmology iirc. Its clear in both cultures that mountains are foremost in cosmological thought

 

[Akhenaten]

people have eyes, they make comparisons with things they can see and understand

The ancient Egyptians couldn't see the ziggurats of Sumer. The Sumerians couldn't see the Pyramids of Egypt. The question here is whether these structures had an influence on each other's construction.

They did not.

The Egyptian symbol for horizon is the Akhet
seen here between the two cats

Go on.

I don't usually draw it, but this is how its spelled

Before you ask, yes, there were inscriptions about the place, including this one:

That's the Pyramid's name. "Khufu's Horizon'

Not many mysteries here, really.

heres Giza again

Yes, it's very pretty.

So when the architectural knowledge didn't exist they would have built them that way ?

What?

perhaps youre missing the inference, that just because something has an origin in one area, it doesn't mean that it can't change over time to gain new meaning and are you forgetting why the Egyptians believed that mountains are sacred, what is a mound and what did Atum do on one

Cite?

you want me to cite that Mesoamericans thought that the gods lived on mountains ?

I want a cite for your assertion that mesoamerican Pyramids represent mountains.

is that because you disagree because of a lack of understanding of this culture ?

It's because we operate on evidence here, not bald assertion.

take for example the orientation of geoglyphs at Nazca towards the mountains surrounding the plain, or the very well attested beliefs of the Atzec deity Tlaloc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
probably going to be easier for you to just google "Mesoamerica mountain gods" though, theres so many cites there that posting them here would take a long long time.

I'm 3½ thousand years old. Take your time.

Maybe you should read the Popul vuh where the Gods create the mountains first from a primordial sea in exactly the same way that Atum creates a mound from the primordial sea in the "heliopolitan" cosmology iirc. Its clear in both cultures that mountains are foremost in cosmological thought

Cite?

 

[Marduk]

ok lets sort this out in one go

the pyramid symbolise mountains, Zahi wrote a book about it

Mesoamerican pyramids symbolise mountains
http://www.sacredsites.com/americas/mexico/chichen_itza.html

According to Maya scholars Linda Schele and David Friedel, the massive pyramidal temples found at Chichen Itza, Uxmal, Palenque and many other major Maya sites were symbolic sacred mountains. Writing in A Forest of Kings: The Untold Story of the Ancient Maya, Schele and Freidel explain that:

"To the Maya, the world was alive and imbued with a sacredness that was especially concentrated at special points, like caves and mountains. The principal pattern of power points had been established by the gods when the cosmos was created. Within this matrix of sacred landscape, human beings built communities that both merged with the god-generated patterns and created a second human-made matrix of power points. The two systems were perceived to be complementary, not separate....The world of human beings was connected to the Otherworld along the wacah chan axis which ran through the center of existence. This axis was not located in any one earthly place, but could be materialized through ritual at any point in the natural and human-made landscape. Most important, it was materialized in the person of the king, who brought it into existence as he stood enthralled in ecstatic visions atop his pyramid-mountain....

Do I need to post cites that prove the thinking was the same for Ziggurats ?

I don't think that there is any connection through architecture, just that they are connected through sacred thought

 

[Akhenaten]

ok lets sort this out in one go

'This' being?

the pyramid symbolise mountains, Zahi wrote a book about it
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EnEMLUkuL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Colin Welland wrote a screenplay called 'Chariots of Fire'

Guess how many chariots there are in it.

Mesoamerican pyramids symbolise mountains
http://www.sacredsites.com/americas/mexico/chichen_itza.html

See? Easy.

Do I need to post cites that prove the thinking was the same for Ziggurats ?

Not really. It's a bit of a derail, actually.

I don't think that there is any connection through architecture, just that they are connected through sacred thought

Well, the thing is, this is a thread about architecture.

 

[Marduk]

Well, the thing is, this is a thread about architecture.

no its a thread about similarity, the clue there will be in the title of the thread
Ancient Pyramids and other structures, astronomical alignment & similarity.
notably the word architecture doesn't appear in it anywhere

your chariots of fire analogy is not valid, have you read the book or are you just assuming it says what you want for the sake of bare assertion ?

Also you are making out that I at some point inferred that the construction of one was influenced by the other
I have never said that

 

[Akhenaten]

KotA?

 

[Marduk]

KotA?

huh ?

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

Who wins in a battle of wits? A heretic pharaoh or a dragon killer?

Stay tuned in to find out!

 

[Marduk]

Who wins in a battle of wits? A heretic pharaoh or a dragon killer?

Stay tuned in to find out!

we are united against a common enemy
no not KotA either


and surely when two ancient world entities discuss the ancient world publically everyone who's interested wins