Amway TV ad

[NewtonTrino]

I have no idea how much money N21 makes, and I don't really care

Game, set and match. This is exactly my point. You DON'T CARE. If you don't care why are you trying to downplay the profits?

Of course guys like Dexter make the lions share of the profits from system. They are at the top of the chain and it's an inverse pyramid of profit. However, once you get a big enough organization there is still plenty to be made without running the system yourself. Of course as you know many Diamonds break off and start their own hoping to get a bigger piece of the pie.

Anyway, you don't care so I suggest you leave.

 

[icerat]

Game, set and match. This is exactly my point. You DON'T CARE. If you don't care why are you trying to downplay the profits?

Because N21 and "diamonds" are two quite different animals. You're studying one animal and making claims about the other.

I buy books from Amazon.com too ... should I care that they make a profit? Well, partly yes - I WANT them to make a profit so they don't go out of business and I can keep using them. Same with N21.

What's wrong with them making a profit?

Of course guys like Dexter make the lions share of the profits from system. They are at the top of the chain and it's an inverse pyramid of profit. However, once you get a big enough organization there is still plenty to be made without running the system yourself. Of course as you know many Diamonds break off and start their own hoping to get a bigger piece of the pie.

And as you apparently DON'T know ... Diamonds breaking off and starting their own systems is primarily a feature of the small part of the Amway world you have experience with.

It's happened once with N21 ... in more than a decade of business and hundreds of Diamonds in dozens of countries. Once. Not exactly "many" is it?

Anyway, you don't care so I suggest you leave.

Please, at least tell me what is wrong with amazon.com making a profit on business support materials I purchase from them.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Amazon doesn't have a direct conflict of interest. The BSM companies run by the big pins do have a direct conflict of interest.

These things are pretty simple when you understand the idea of ethics. Amway as run by the BSM organizations isn't ethical or effective, it's a scam. The business itself isn't a scam but is a very poor way to make money.

 

[Bob Klase]

The Amway 'answer' to this is that it isn't high risk to those who really want to succeed. "100% of those who really want to" is an answer often given to those who ask about the success rate in Amway.

Yes- it's the Amway version of 'No True Scotsman'. 100% of those who really want to succeed do succeed, therefore anyone who doesn't succeed didn't really want to.

 

[Furcifer]

Could someone expain what a N21 is and why people would buy more than 1 CD? I'm lost on the last little bit of this thread. 70 000 Amway people in a stadium? Buying several CD's, of what? a month? This is starting to sound more and more like a cult as this thread progresses.

 

[icerat]

Amazon doesn't have a direct conflict of interest. The BSM companies run by the big pins do have a direct conflict of interest.

The folk who run N21 day to day aren't even IBOs, so that's not quite correct either. And where's the conflict of interest for the owners? Amazon.com has an incentive to sell as much stuff at as a higher price as possible to me, with no regard to efficacy. If N21's owners sell me stuff that works, ie aids in building in Amway business, they'll by definition get more customers for N21 and, if I'm in their immediate organisation, make more money from Amway as well.

So please explain - what's the conflict here?

 

[Skeptic]

Could someone explain what a N21 is and why people would buy more than 1 CD? I'm lost on the last little bit of this thread. 70 000 Amway people in a stadium? Buying several CD's, of what? a month? This is starting to sound more and more like a cult as this thread progresses.

It is. Simply put, there is a scam... and the bigger scam.

The scam is Amway, a pyramid scheme which, like all MLMs, and by design, 99.9% must fail so that the top 0.1% will rake in their money. (The overpriced products -- bought by nobody except those in the pyramid -- are just a cover to make it formally legal).

Then there is another scam: the "organizations". These are NOT part of Amway, but run by the top 0.1%, the "diamonds" and above. They cynically exploit the fact that 99% in Amway must lose money. You're still losing money? Ah, that's because you're NOT DOING IT RIGHT. But you don't want to just QUIT and be a BROKE LOSER, do you? Well, to learn how to DO IT RIGHT, you must be "plugged in" (that is the old term, perhaps it change) -- you must buy all the motivational CDs, DVDs, and books "diamond"'s organization puts out; you must go to all the motivational conferences they have; and so on.

Why buy more than one CD? When most of them saying essentially the same thing (keep doing Amway / those who leave Amway are losers / buy all the stuff the diamond offers / be a good boy and don't have any "negative thoughts" -- e.g., things like asking what the success rate is, etc.)? Well, that's because you need to show you are SERIOUS, and a GO-GETTER, and DEDICATED, and GOING TO MAKE IT -- and not one of those BROKER LOSERS and CRITICS and FAILURES, you know, all those people who aren't in Amway.

If this sounds a lot like a cult -- those inside are the elect, those who are the leaders of the inside are practically Gods who can do no wrong, those on the outside (including pre-amway friends and family) are ignorant or evil, thought control, love bombing, etc. -- you're quite right. True, the dogma is economic, not religious, but that is not the real issue. The mind control is what makes it a cult.

 

[icerat]

Could someone expain what a N21 is and why people would buy more than 1 CD? I'm lost on the last little bit of this thread. 70 000 Amway people in a stadium? Buying several CD's, of what? a month? This is starting to sound more and more like a cult as this thread progresses.

How does that sound like a cult? People go to stadiums in their tens of thousands of every weekend all around the world.

Anyway - successful Amway distributors discovered years ago that education, training, and motivation/inspiration are crucial to success in a sales-oriented business.

Originally people would use lots of outside resources to supply this, but it was realised, pretty obviously, that often the best people to train Amway distributors were successful Amway distributors. A few enterprising souls set up separate companies whose purposes was to offer support and training services to Amway distributors. To the surprise of noone with any sense, they don't offer these services free of charge! It's completely optional and most distributors don't use them, however the great majority of large successful distributorships do.

Problems have arisen for a couple of reasons though. One is some folk have used these seminars to not only train and motivate about Amway, but also to push other issues, such as their particular religious or political viewpoints. When done with folk who like that kind of stuff it can be very powerful and help create very large networks - but at the cost of alienating anyone with a different viewpoint. The Britt/Yager systems and their offshoots were well known in the past for having a very right-wing evangelical approach. They still are, but it's been considerably moderated. Unfortunately, IMO they causede a lot of damage along the way, including many of the "cult-like" claims.

The second issue is that with this "side business" you now have a second potential income stream. Like any other business, distributors could buy materials from these companies (such as CDs of seminars) and sell them to distributors in their organisations. Naturally, if you buy 1000CDs you get a better price than if you buy one, so there's a mark up potential - and profit potential. In some organisations this has lead to all sorts of disputes as folk battle over access to this income stream. Depending on the particular setup, it also led to situations where some people could make money more easily pushing these tools to their group than they could through actually properly building an Amway business. The fact they actually do appear to help with building an Amway business just exacerbated the situation as it's thus easy to justify to yourself pushing the tools. There's also been other problems to do with the way tool profits would be shared. It's clear though that some people have exploited this area, encouraging distributors to buy far more tools than they could likely afford, or justify, based on their Amway business.

In addition, a handful of folk who got very good at providing these services and materials expanded to offering them to many, many different Amway groups - as any entrepreneurial type would! This meant of course more money, and some have made far more money offering services to Amway distributors than they made as Amway distributors. This isn't uncommon in business. Many top salespeople have gone on to make far more money as sales trainers. Many top sportspeople have gone on to make far more money from promotion work and selling books and DVDs etc etc. Heck, politicians tend to make a lot more on the speaking circuit than they ever did as politicians. For some reason though, some people take offense to the idea of Amway distributors doing exactly the same thing with their knowledge and experience.

Where NT and I differ is he believes, based on his experience in one part of the Amway world, that virtually every successful Amway leader is "excessively" profiting from this area. I believe, based on my experience with a different part of the Amway world, plus a decade as a non-active Amway IBO researching all of Amway, that those problems were never as widespread as some Amway critics claim, and where they have occurred in the past, things have much improved.

IMO, the fact that virtually every complaint and piece of evidence with regards problems in this area are related to the group NT had connections with just confirms my perspective.

 

[icerat]

Yes- it's the Amway version of 'No True Scotsman'. 100% of those who really want to succeed do succeed, therefore anyone who doesn't succeed didn't really want to.

That's rubbish. It has nothing to do with wanting to succeed. It's got to do with doing what's needed to succeed.

I "want" to be a Diamond, but I haven't been willing to do the work necessary to achieve it.

 

[Pushkin]

great thread.

surely Amway makes itself stand out from the crowd in the "N21" regard by charging its workers/employees/individuals for training materials.

most companies would either distribute the materials at cost to the centre, put it onto the intranet to give its people access to it or indeed pay to get its people to one place for training. in my place of work when we go for training and improvement the company foots the bill, we still dont like being away from home for a night but we dont have to pay at the door.

i know for a fact my big boss gets paid to speak at other conferences or events based on his track record, good for him. the moment they tried to charge me to listen to him telling me how to work better I'd quit. But so far we get to listen to him for free.

in that regard you cannot draw a parallel between sportsmen/business people/politicians and Amway

 

[Furcifer]

How does that sound like a cult? People go to stadiums in their tens of thousands of every weekend all around the world.

Anyway - successful Amway distributors discovered years ago that education, training, and motivation/inspiration are crucial to success in a sales-oriented business.

Thanks for your response IR. I see what you are saying and offer this:

1. Yes, people go to stadiums all over the World for various reasons. I've been to both the Grateful Dead and Phish shows, where the crowd could certainly be called "cult like". In fact many bands, sports groups etc. have "cult like" followings. The difference I see immediately is that bands or sports groups don't get together to deliver a message. While some bands might have a message or a political statement to make, the purpose of the gathering is usually the music. (I hear Bono can be preachy at his concerts, but I'm not a U2 fan so I don't know). When you get a bunch of people together for the sole purpose of delivering a message you're bordering on a cult. Plus it's not a public gathering per se, it really is private. I'm sure it isn't limited to "Amway folk", but of the 70 000 people how many aren't "Amway folk" and just there for the good times?
2. Doesn't the whole business of "groups" or "organizations" strike you as odd? I mean there are conferences in any profession, but this seems to go beyond that. Is the retail sales business such a fast moving, cutting edge thing that requires you keep abreast of the latest and greatest trends sweeping the nation? I don't think so. I think there are other factors at play here.

Let me put it like this, salesmen are like strippers. Why? Good question. I'll tell you why. If you ask a stripper how much she (or he, don't want to be un-PC) makes, 99 out of 100 will tell you they make whatever they made on the very best day they ever had. Some hedge around it by saying "I do well" or "I make good money", but when you press them for a figure it always goes back to the best day in recent memory (if they don't outright lie). Salesmen do this as well. In fact, its been my experience that most people in a profession that earnings fluctuate daily (cab drivers, waiters, bartenders etc.) do this. It's human nature.

I'm saying a huge part of these "gatherings" is people lying not only to each other, but themselves about how well they are doing. They don't need to be there, "The product sells itself!", they just go to all the events "To see Bob from Springfield".

I could be wrong, but from what I know of people, the numbers I've seen, even your own reluctance to put an actual figure on what you've made (don't think I didn't notice your best month was $3000, that's the only figure you've stated) I think I've got a pretty good idea of what the Amway culture is like. I'll agree with you it's not a cult. In a cult, usually only one person has delusions of grandeur. In Amway, it seems every one has delusions of grandeur.

 

[icerat]

great thread.

surely Amway makes itself stand out from the crowd in the "N21" regard by charging its workers/employees/individuals for training materials.

N21 doesn't charge it's workers/employess/individuals for training materials. You might be following the thread, but you're apparently not understanding it.

most companies would either distribute the materials at cost to the centre, put it onto the intranet to give its people access to it or indeed pay to get its people to one place for training.

You're confusing Amway and N21. Amway does all of those things. N21 is an independent company targetting it's products to Amway business owners. It's no different to Tony Robbins, or Amazon.com or whoever deciding to market to Amway business owners. Of course they charge. It's silly to think they wouldn't.

i know for a fact my big boss gets paid to speak at other conferences or events based on his track record, good for him. the moment they tried to charge me to listen to him telling me how to work better I'd quit. But so far we get to listen to him for free.

And Amway IBOs generally get to here their "upline" free of charge too. When you're paying for stuff it's generally the hear from people who are effectively competitors - just like your boss speaking at other conferences, I'm sure someone was footing the bill. You've misunderstood the setup.

in that regard you cannot draw a parallel between sportsmen/business people/politicians and Amway

Might be true with your misunderstanding, but not true with the way it operates.

 

[icerat]

Thanks for your response IR. I see what you are saying and offer this:

1. When you get a bunch of people together for the sole purpose of delivering a message you're bordering on a cult. Plus it's not a public gathering per se, it really is private. I'm sure it isn't limited to "Amway folk", but of the 70 000 people how many aren't "Amway folk" and just there for the good times?

Well, as I said I suspect the 70k number is an exaggeration, but nevertheless I still find your comments a little odd. Guess it depends what you mean by "cult". I had folk join my Amway network who were managers with big franchisers like McDonald's and Pizza Hut - they said their seminars were very similar in style. I've spent the last decade in the IT industry and there's regular seminars of thousands of people getting together to "deliver a message" at Microsoft seminars, or RedHat conferences or whatever. There's some weird stuff go on at them too.

They generally cost a hell of a lot more as well.

2. Doesn't the whole business of "groups" or "organizations" strike you as odd?

No, why should they? There's lots of support groups and organizations for all sorts of things. Lions, Rotary, BNI, Mensa, Joomla whatever.

I mean there are conferences in any profession, but this seems to go beyond that. Is the retail sales business such a fast moving, cutting edge thing that requires you keep abreast of the latest and greatest trends sweeping the nation? I don't think so. I think there are other factors at play here.

Yes, there are other factorsm, like motivation and milestones. Heck it's not like they're that often, the big seminars are only quarterly. One of most important aspects of it is milestoning - have a concrete date to target goals around. Highly disciplined people can do that themselves, but most of us can do with the external motivators. My fiancee finished a course in entrepreneurship last year and virtually every classmate is complaining about how hard it is to maintain their motivation without the regular meetings with classmates - fellow entrepreneurs.

There's also the issue of high turnover, which is common in the sales industry. A once a year seminar could leave a new salesperson a year until they attend their first one. Chances are they won't be around then.

I guess the short answer is, the reason we have them is because they work a lot better than not having them.

I'm saying a huge part of these "gatherings" is people lying not only to each other, but themselves about how well they are doing. They don't need to be there, "The product sells itself!", they just go to all the events "To see Bob from Springfield".

I've never heard a person at one of the seminars I attend give any specifics about how much they earn, or even close to specifics. Sounds pretty tacky to me. Still, I have heard some groups do that. Still sounds tacky.

And products don't sell themselves. You're just sprouting this generic rubbish that shows you have little real experience with what you're talking about.

I could be wrong, but from what I know of people, the numbers I've seen, even your own reluctance to put an actual figure on what you've made (don't think I didn't notice your best month was $3000, that's the only figure you've stated) I think I've got a pretty good idea of what the Amway culture is like.

There is no "Amway culture". Different groups have different cultures. Even within those who use one support system, such as the N21 system, there are different cultures. Saying you have an idea of the "Amway culture" says you don't have an idea at all.

As for income, you're also not understanding the model. I stopped working my Amway business nearly 10 years ago. The work I did 10 years ago still produces income today. How much did I make in my "best month" a decade ago? No idea - I'm still getting paid for it ... well, to be specific my former wife is, but the principal is the same.

I'll agree with you it's not a cult. In a cult, usually only one person has delusions of grandeur. In Amway, it seems every one has delusions of grandeur.

lol! Sounds like life to me

 

[Almo]

I've spent the last decade in the IT industry and there's regular seminars of thousands of people getting together to "deliver a message" at Microsoft seminars, or RedHat conferences or whatever.

I think the issue was that it would be weird if Microsoft charged its employees to go to a seminar on how to use Visual Studio (an MS product). Obviously, if I (as a Ubisoft employee) go to a Visual Studio seminar, there will be a charge. But I don't get charged; Ubisoft does.

If I get charged to go to an event designed to help my Amway business, and the event is put on by the organization I am a member of, then that is different than the two cases above.

My Amway business is doing pretty well. I'm at the break even point.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Well, as I said I suspect the 70k number is an exaggeration,

And as I said, as a first-hand witness, it is not an exaggeration at all.

 

[icerat]

I think the issue was that it would be weird if Microsoft charged its employees to go to a seminar on how to use Visual Studio (an MS product). Obviously, if I (as a Ubisoft employee) go to a Visual Studio seminar, there will be a charge. But I don't get charged; Ubisoft does.

I already told you. Amway doesn't charge it's employees for training.

If I get charged to go to an event designed to help my Amway business, and the event is put on by the organization I am a member of, then that is different than the two cases above.

People are not "members" of N21 or BWW or WWDB or any of the companies by anthing except association. They are vendors, we are customers. If I go and make a billion dollars from Amway, N21 makes zero - unless I chose of course to keep using their services. If I decide to use Tony Robbins instead, he makes a profit.

I used to resell Microsoft products, I was not a Microsoft employee. Most Microsoft training cost me and my staff a fortune.

I run a number of websites, I'm an agent and customer for Google - displaying their advertisements and displaying ads on other sites. If I want to go to a Google seminar, I have to pay for it.

The business relationship between an Amway IBO and Amway is similar to that between a Microsoft reseller and Microsoft, or a Googleads custoemr/publisher and Google.

Yet Amway seminars are generally free. Indeed for Platinums and above expenses are covered as well.

I don't see you folk being critical of Microsoft and Google for charging for their seminars?

The bizarre thing is, my Amway business relationship with Network 21 would be closer to say Unitek, an MCSE trainer. They charge a lot of money for their courses, which are to help me learn about Microsoft products so I can make money using and promoting Microsoft products.

If you guys were consistent, then you'd believe this company, Unitek, should provide free or cost-price training for folk who want to make money with Microsoft!

Absurd, right?

But that is *exactly* what you are suggesting here - that some 3rd party company that has no connection to Amway should be providing training and support to Amway business owners for no profit!

On what basis you can possibly believe this?

 

[icerat]

And as I said, as a first-hand witness, it is not an exaggeration at all.

Count the ticket stubbs did you? I've had people give me "first-hand witness" accounts of the number of people at a seminar - and when I checked with the venue, the number claimed was ten thousand more than the venue held!

There could have been 70,000 there, I don't know. I just doubt it.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Count the ticket stubbs did you? I've had people give me "first-hand witness" accounts of the number of people at a seminar - and when I checked with the venue, the number claimed was ten thousand more than the venue held!

There could have been 70,000 there, I don't know. I just doubt it.

Not ticket stubs, just seats.

Someone on stage said 70,000. I thought to myself "No way could there be that many here." So I counted empty seats. As I said before, the only empty seats were in the couple of sections directly behind the stage. The rest of the place was jam-packed. It was a simple matter to count how many seats in a section and how many sections were empty. The total came to over 4,000 but less than 5,000 (this was some time ago, so I'm not putting the exact number down).

Anyway, I did the same calculation for the full seats, and came to right about 70,000 And to be doubly sure, when I got home I looked up the capacity of the Georgia Dome. About 75,000.

As you said, you don't know. You weren't there, I'm guessing. So what reason do you have to doubt it?

When I say I was a first-hand witness, I mean it. If I were to say I heard someone on stage say there were 70,000 people there, that would make me a second-hand witness. I didn't go to the source. I am the source.

 

[Furcifer]

And products don't sell themselves. You're just sprouting this generic rubbish that shows you have little real experience with what you're talking about.

You're correct there, it is a generalization. I was making a general statement of what I suspect the general attendee is generally saying. If you're doing well I don't see any reason to attend a quarterly seminar to improve your sales etc. With the number of attendees and the figures we've seen here regarding "tools" there are a lot of people that feel they need continuous motivation to make very little. I suspect that many make excuses to the contrary at these seminars.

Tacky to discuss your sales with other salesmen? Now you're just sprouting rubbish that shows you have little real experience with what you're talking about. If you find a salesman that isn't talking about the sales he made he isn't making sales. Maybe the salesmen I've met have been of a different cloth, but these guys never stop talking. They'll tell you to the dollar amount how much they wrote off last month on business lunches, and how much they tipped the waitress.

There is no "Amway culture". Different groups have different cultures. Even within those who use one support system, such as the N21 system, there are different cultures. Saying you have an idea of the "Amway culture" says you don't have an idea at all.

I saying the Amway culture is a bunch of people deluding themselves into thinking if they only worked harder, read the right materials and attended the right seminars they could achieve Diamond status. I'm saying the culture involves people not being honest with themselves about the actual business propect Amway affords them.

As for income, you're also not understanding the model. I stopped working my Amway business nearly 10 years ago. The work I did 10 years ago still produces income today.

You stopped working 10 years ago but continue to recieve residuals, but I'm the one that doesn't understand this is a pyramid???

 

[Almo]

Ok, so if the training is handled by a 3rd party, I find it a strange parasitic relationship. So what I see is an impossible business model (Amway MLM) that's a pyramid scheme in how it handles its profits, leading to overpriced products. When people find they can't sell these, they pay for training to help sell. The selling fails because the market for overpriced products is usually a tough one.

With sufficiently indoctrinated people, they will continue buying the products and the training, which feeds the Amway pyramid and the training vendors.

It's not any better.

Think of it this way. If Amway is so hard to understand that a smart guy like yourself can't explain it clearly in such a way the we understand that it's really a decent business, then isn't there something wrong?

I bet someone could come in here and explain why Walmart has been so successful, and the relevant discussion would be over in a page. The discussion would probably attract people who really despise Walmart for its tactics and policies, and thus drag out longer than a page. But there wouldn't be any argument about the economic viability of its underlying structure.