Amway TV ad

[icerat]

I also think the blog of the guy arguing with Doug is interesting.

Here he lays out some more info on the tools scam:
http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html

You're quoting TEX????? ROFLMAO!!!

The guy is a fruitcake. He's been banned from anti-amway and pro-amway sites alike.

This is an interesting tax case. The gist of it is that this couple was offsetting taxes on income from their jobs because of the (large) losses of their Amway business.

It shows just how much time and money people spend chasing functions and showing the plan.

Except the judge didn't believe them and disallowed the deductions. They weren't building a business. They may have been attending functions and other activities for social purposes, but they weren't actually doing enough to be considered in business. Heck, BOTH of the couple were CPAs. They were simply trying to screw the IRS and the IRS rightly came down hard on them.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You're quoting TEX????? ROFLMAO!!!

The guy is a fruitcake. He's been banned from anti-amway and pro-amway sites alike.


Except the judge didn't believe them and disallowed the deductions. They weren't building a business. They may have been attending functions and other activities for social purposes, but they weren't actually doing enough to be considered in business. Heck, BOTH of the couple were CPAs. They were simply trying to screw the IRS and the IRS rightly came down hard on them.

Actually it's quite apparent that you are the fruitcake. I certainly won't vouch for tex being sane though as apparently he still thinks the business is good and that the only problem is the tools scam. I disagree, I think it's a waste of time from top to bottom.

As for the couple screwing the IRS what they did is very standard procedure for the vast majority of the people in Amway. Most people never get profitable and in fact are encouraged to write off as much as possible including all travel to functions, plan showing trips, home office etc. What they did is standard for an Amway loser who never makes it but is sucked into the system.


Anyway as for talking about which groups I've worked with it's irrelevent. There are not real differences between groups as they all sell tools. Some have different mechanisms for distributing the tool money but I worked with groups that used several methods. Your precious N21 sells CDs for $10 each and still has many functions per year. How is it different? Find me a group that DOESN'T SELL TOOLS or HAVE PAID FUNCTIONS and I'll agree with you that it's a different enough group that it needs it's own analysis. Of course that analysis is still going to look poor but at least those people aren't being brainwashed into buying hundreds of dollars a year in audio recording meant to brainwash them into... buying more audio recordings.

Anyway the bottom line is that the burden of proof is on you to show that a typical diamond doesn't make more money from tools that from product. Given the numbers we have seen this seems EXTREMELY UNLIKELY. Especially as you have given us numbers for 30% of distributors participating in the N21 system which leaves AT LEAST $50 per month per distributor in PROFIT (this is low) from the tools (that's right CD's cost a few pennies to make and the recordings are from functions that themselves MAKE TONS OF MONEY). Where does all the money go? EVERY #)($(*# PENNY MUST BE ACCOUNTED FOR BY YOU.

Icerat, ibofightback or whatever you are. You simply don't have a leg to stand on here. The fact that you can stand here and claim that the tools scam doesn't exist after guys like Doug Wead and many former high level distributors, myself who has seen the books for some of the these people and that you yourself were never high enough to even see the profits is just insane. You simply are misinformed, brainwashed or possibly are just a paid shill (this is personally not my theory because I think you are just a deluded fool but I've certainly seen other people make the accusation that you are a paid anti-internet troll).

I mean seriously why do you run an entire website devoted to protecting Amway? Why are you not currently building a business if it's so great?

And one more time HOW MUCH MONEY DOES IT COST TO BE PLUGGED INTO THE SYSTEM YOU BELIEVE IN? Even a nice round number would allow lots of math. You simply know that there is no way to cover up the tools profits. There is simply too much money flowing to hide all of it.

 

[icerat]

As for the couple screwing the IRS what they did is very standard procedure for the vast majority of the people in Amway.

Uhuh. Evidence?

Most people never get profitable and in fact are encouraged to write off as much as possible including all travel to functions, plan showing trips, home office etc. What they did is standard for an Amway loser who never makes it but is sucked into the system.

Hang on, I'm confused. You claim "the vast majority of the people "in Amway" are doing this IRS scam, and that's because they got "sucked into the system".

Leaving aside the fact you think the IRS is for some reason only prosecuting a small number of Amway business owners, yet leaving hundreds of thousands alone - obviously some kind of conspiracy! - I must say I'm even MORE fascinated by these amazing systems! The vast majority of people in Amway never go near a "system meeting" or listen to a "system tape or CD" or any such thing .... yet despite this, these incredible brainsucking systems can STILL get them to cheat on their taxes!

Wow!

Truly, you are entertaining. Perhaps you should have a word with Dan Brown and do a book? The De Vos Code or something ...

Anyway as for talking about which groups I've worked with it's irrelevent. There are not real differences between groups as they all sell tools.

ROFL!! Right ... so who your experience is is irrelevant, because they're all the same because ... well ... because they are! They sell stuff! Must all be the sam

Some have different mechanisms for distributing the tool money but I worked with groups that used several methods. Your precious N21 sells CDs for $10 each and still has many functions per year. How is it different?

N21 CDs are not $10, and MP3s are even cheaper, just for a start. But from my discussions with other people who ARE willing to actually give info on their experiences and who they are with there are a lot of differences between different groups, particularly when compared to across the years. Some groups encourage people to by 10,15 even more CDs per month, some encourage 4 or 5. Some groups employee large staff to handle events, others use volunteer IBOs. Some groups handle everything cash, others do everything only via card and check. Some groups have offices and staff around the world, some groups have no offices or staff at all. Some groups distribute tool rebates contractually across all qualifiers, some pick and choose who gets it.

You would have us believe that for example, groups that sell fewer CDs, have more expenses, and distribute profits to more people, have folk make just as much money from this aspect as groups who sell more CDs, with fewer expenses, and share profits among fewer people.

And that makes sense to you? Less income + More expense = More Income + Less Expense

Really?

Anyway the bottom line is that the burden of proof is on you to show that a typical diamond doesn't make more money from tools that from product.

No, the burden of proof is on you. You're making the claim.

Given the numbers we have seen this seems EXTREMELY UNLIKELY. Especially as you have given us numbers for 30% of distributors participating in the N21 system which leaves AT LEAST $50 per month per distributor in PROFIT (this is low)

No, it's ridiculously high, particularly when averaged out over all distributors, which is what you are claiming.

from the tools (that's right CD's cost a few pennies to make and the recordings are from functions that themselves MAKE TONS OF MONEY).

Not true, some functions lose money.

Where does all the money go? EVERY #)($(*# PENNY MUST BE ACCOUNTED FOR BY YOU.

1. Volume rebates to customers
2. Expenses to run the business
3. Profits to owners
4. Cash on hand

Every penny

Icerat, ibofightback or whatever you are. You simply don't have a leg to stand on here. The fact that you can stand here and claim that the tools scam doesn't exist

Again you lie, I never said any such thing, indeed I've said the exact opposite. There were clearly people who exploited this area, scammed people if you will. The difference between you and I is that you believe that because some people did it, all people did it - despite massive amounts of evidence to the contrary.

after guys like Doug Wead and many former high level distributors, myself who has seen the books for some of the these people and that you yourself were never high enough to even see the profits is just insane.

What's insane is to believe that businesses run by completely different companies and people, with completely different approaches, different incomes, different expenses etc etc, are all the same as what you experienced in one small part of the Amway world.

You simply are misinformed, brainwashed or possibly are just a paid shill

And you are incapable of comprehending that you don't have "the one TRUE experience". The reason why you won't mention where you experience is with is because you know it's true. Your experience is with the system and it's affiliated group that are involved in all the lawsuits, that is named in all the other documents, written about in all the books etc, etc. You have no experience at all with groups other than those yet insist you know exactly how they operate, purely because they offer similar services!

I mean seriously why do you run an entire website devoted to protecting Amway? Why are you not currently building a business if it's so great?

A man's got to have a hobby

 

[NewtonTrino]

You would have us believe that for example, groups that sell fewer CDs, have more expenses, and distribute profits to more people, have folk make just as much money from this aspect as groups who sell more CDs, with fewer expenses, and share profits among fewer people.

I never claimed all tool systems had exactly the same level of profitability. This is one of the reasons that the systems are constantly evolving and changing. For example some organizations spread the wealth more evenly up and down the line while other concentrate more of the money once you get to Diamond. Also they are evolving to try to combat the critics.


Bottom line, you yourself have admitted people make money from tools. Due to the nature of these materials and the poor Amway compensation plan it's clear that the yachts of the diamonds are coming from tools and not from the Amway business itself ($150k a year isn't very much money these days). Sure there are distributors who make money from the products but that profit is dwarfed by the tools. As a diamond you would have to be an absolute fool not to make a few hundred thousand a year from tools if you have 5000 distributors in your organization. Tools are just way way way way more profitable than Amway products are. They are also the grease that keeps the wheels turning. Without the brainwashing people would quit after losing money for year after year. But they stay in... why is this?

Anyway you simply can't dismiss my experience. I've had experience with multiple tools systems and I was plugged into several diamonds who RAN THEIR OWN SYSTEMS. I know how much money they were making and it was INSANELY HUGE. Hell I was making great money just selling software to them to run the business (they also give us exclusive access to the rest of their organization and if anyone bought software it was ours because it was Diamond promoted!!)

So icerat, which group DOES NOT )(*&#)(* USE TOOLS? Find me one! Again the burden of proof is ON YOU to PROVE that this opportunity isn't a scam. I'm not the one telling people to take it up and I have absolutely no burden on me to prove anything. I'm just doing my job as a good citizen to warn people away from this scam.

None of your points address the main question of where all of the money goes. With MULTIPLE STATEMENTS FROM EX-DISTRIBUTORS, LAWSUITS OVER TOOL MONEY etc. it's clear that tools have been and are extremely profitable. This is simply not debatable.

You can claim that things are different all you want to or that my experience in multiple groups, using multiple ways of tracking tool income isn't relevant but you still haven't been able to tell me where the profit from a CD goes. I'll tell you where it goes:
Cost of manufacture - $0.50 <-- being generous here
Cost of editing/recording - Recording is paid for out of function money, editing not sure but given my experience I would be shocked if it took more than a day per CD so call it $1000
Cost of distribution - hmmm do they charge shipping?

BTW you claim that some functions lose money. I certainly think that this COULD happen although I think it's unlikely for the big functions. Small meetings I could see not making money under some circumstances but they will be canceled or moved to a smaller room if this regularly happens.

How big are the typical LARGE functions in N21? How much do they cost to attend?

The way this works btw is that every upline gets a cut of each ticket depending on how many people from their organization are attending the function. They track this stuff really carefully so everyone can get their money.

Also you've implied that some functions used paid staff and that somehow would make them unprofitable. MALARKY. Rock concerts use paid staff and are generally cheaper to attend that the big functions and they still make TONS OF CASH.

Icerat you are scammer. You are directly responsible for defending a business that screws up peoples live, causes many divorces and generally is a force of evil in the world. Not that different than your typical religous nutcase I guess.

 

[icerat]

Bottom line, you yourself have admitted people make money from tools.

Yes, and that's never been a secret, at least in the organisation I joined with. Heck, I would have been surprised if people didn't make money off the tools - indeed I'd find it outright bizarre! People are producing and selling something and not making money? Hullo! Especially when these people are associated with a company which is a major supporter of "free enterprise".

In any case, it hasn't been a secret within Amway as a whole for well over a decade. You get told before you join.

Due to the nature of these materials and the poor Amway compensation plan it's clear that the yachts of the diamonds are coming from tools and not from the Amway business itself ($150k a year isn't very much money these days).

Name me one Diamond with a yacht that couldn't be bought on $150k/yr income, on top of anything else you might be doing.

Now, you said "Diamond", so I don't want to hear about people who are actually Double Diamonds, or Crowns or whatever. It was reported several years ago that the average income for Founders Executive Diamond and above was something like $1.5million a year. That can't buy a nice runabout? please ....

Name me one Diamond with a yacht that couldn't be bought on $150k/yr income. Heck, lets even pretend they have no other jobs or incomes - and why wouldn't they?

Sure there are distributors who make money from the products but that profit is dwarfed by the tools. As a diamond you would have to be an absolute fool not to make a few hundred thousand a year from tools if you have 5000 distributors in your organization.

Amazing - you claim it's a scam, but if your're not scamming people then you must be a fool! That says a lot more about you than about anyone else.

Anyway you simply can't dismiss my experience.

I never did. I just said you can't generalize your experience over the dozens of different major sytems and thousands of individual diamonds and above.

I've had experience with multiple tools systems and I was plugged into several diamonds who RAN THEIR OWN SYSTEMS. I know how much money they were making and it was INSANELY HUGE.

As I said, that kind of setup is where people were making big money. But your claiming Diamonds who are not running their own system (which is by FAR the majority) are also making this money. It makes no sense.

None of your points address the main question of where all of the money goes. With MULTIPLE STATEMENTS FROM EX-DISTRIBUTORS, LAWSUITS OVER TOOL MONEY etc. it's clear that tools have been and are extremely profitable. This is simply not debatable.

OK, so let's look at the evidence -

1. Every lawsuit, ex-distributor statement, corporate memo etc etc all speak about the one system and it's off shoots.
2. There are no known statements/memos etc for any of the dozens of other systems.

You claim they're all the same

3. Company A sells more products and has fewer expenses
4. Company B sells fewer products and has more expenses

You claim they're equally profitable - or at the least still insanely profitable

1. You have experience with only one system and it's offshoots (the claim it is "multiple systems" is semantics, and that's why you won't give details), the same system mentioned in 1 above.
2. You have no experience with any of the systems per 2 above

You claim they're all the same.

You can claim that things are different all you want to or that my experience in multiple groups, using multiple ways of tracking tool income isn't relevant but you still haven't been able to tell me where the profit from a CD goes. I'll tell you where it goes:
Cost of manufacture - $0.50 <-- being generous here
Cost of editing/recording - Recording is paid for out of function money, editing not sure but given my experience I would be shocked if it took more than a day per CD so call it $1000
Cost of distribution - hmmm do they charge shipping?

How about packaging? How about unsold stock? Office space? Office staff? Legal and Accounting services? Executive salaries? R&D? Insurance? Taxes? Marketing expenses? Funds for expansion? etc etc

On what basis do you believe companies marketing training to Amway business owners are so incredibly more efficient than normal companies?

BTW you claim that some functions lose money. I certainly think that this COULD happen although I think it's unlikely for the big functions.[/quote]

Really? Where do you think the money comes from when a huge stadium is hired and the event has to be cancelled at the last minute because some piece of city paperwork was missed? Do you think the stadium owners just waive the fees?

Small meetings I could see not making money under some circumstances but they will be canceled or moved to a smaller room if this regularly happens.

Which would make you not a very good businessman. If you want to expand in a region you don't skimp on money because you're not making any yet. You pay for it out of profits from elsewhere.

How big are the typical LARGE functions in N21? How much do they cost to attend?

Varies from country to country

Also you've implied that some functions used paid staff and that somehow would make them unprofitable. MALARKY. Rock concerts use paid staff and are generally cheaper to attend that the big functions and they still make TONS OF CASH.

Rock concerts are generally more expensive than big functions and the staffing requirements are much the same - audio and lighting technicians, security, booth staffing, VIP catering, multimedia expenses, marketing expenses etc etc etc. Some rock concerts make money, some lose money. Same with the motivational seminar business.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

How about packaging? How about unsold stock? Office space? Office staff? Legal and Accounting services? Executive salaries? R&D? Insurance? Taxes? Marketing expenses? Funds for expansion? etc etc

Could you please explain how the bolded items are expenses when selling a CD? I don't see it. Thanks.

Really? Where do you think the money comes from when a huge stadium is hired and the event has to be cancelled at the last minute because some piece of city paperwork was missed? Do you think the stadium owners just waive the fees?

I'd be surprised if someone who is paying thousands of dollars to rent a stadium and has their own legal and accounting services and has been in business long enough to be able to afford to do so would be missing a piece of paperwork and have to cancel the whole event. Do you have any evidence of this actually happening?

Varies from country to country

As of about 10 years ago in the US, it was anywhere from $200-$400. This included tickets to the meetings, a couple meals, and 2 nights accomodations. It did not include travel expenses or any tools purchased at the convention.

Rock concerts are generally more expensive than big functions and the staffing requirements are much the same.

I want to doubt this, but will stay open-minded pending evidence.

 

[icerat]

Could you please explain how the bolded items are expenses when selling a CD? I don't see it. Thanks.

I'm not sure what you "don't see"? These are pretty normal costs for ANY business?

I'd be surprised if someone who is paying thousands of dollars to rent a stadium and has their own legal and accounting services and has been in business long enough to be able to afford to do so would be missing a piece of paperwork and have to cancel the whole event. Do you have any evidence of this actually happening?

Yup, this particular example happened in 1993 in Jakarta, Indonesia as part of the market launch. Dozens of permits were required, somewhere along the line there was one that was missed, and the police shutdown the event before the doors even opened. Literally milllions of dollars had been spent by the company leading up to this event. You can imagine how getting shutdown by the police damages your reputation, and it took years to recover. The irony is that apparently the then chief of police is now a very successful Amway IBO!

It's not the first or last time an event has had to be cancelled. Things happen.

As of about 10 years ago in the US, it was anywhere from $200-$400. This included tickets to the meetings, a couple meals, and 2 nights accomodations. It did not include travel expenses or any tools purchased at the convention.

Ticket cost is closer to $100 with the organisation I work with. Accomodation, meals etc are obviously going to vary greatly from person to person and depends on their own circumstances.

I want to doubt this, but will stay open-minded pending evidence.

Doubt what? That rock concerts can lose money? Or that they're more expensive? Here's the American Idol Tour at Van Andel Arena - prices are from $40 to $70 for one session. A $100 seminar is usually at least 4 or 5 sessions over 2-3 days - far cheaper. What's more, the Amway "system" seminars are usually significantly cheaper than competitors offering similar "open" events. Here's a price comparison I did a couple of years ago.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'm not sure what you "don't see"? These are pretty normal costs for ANY business?

Sure but I can get CD's duplicated for pennies each without having a staff to do it myself. Editing the sound is trivial. Recording is covered by the function cost.

If I was a diamond who wanted to dupe my own CD's my costs would be very minimal per CD. I'm actually IN the SOFTWARE business and manufacturing, accounting etc. are a small fraction of the software development budget. If I was just making audio CD's it could be done EXTREMLY EXTREMELY cheap (like well under $1 including ALL costs).

How much do you think it costs to run these BSM organizations AS A PERCENTAGE of the VAST revenue.

You are a paid shill. Go away please.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Amway = Brainwashing tool scam.

Icerat I think everyone reading this thread can clearly see your reality distortion field.

You've already established tool profits exist. The only question is HOW MUCH. We are trying to determine that here and you are really not helping. You are simply trying to obfuscate the issues as much as possible to make your Scamway buddies look better.

Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.Scam.

 

[icerat]

If I was a diamond who wanted to dupe my own CD's my costs would be very minimal per CD. I'm actually IN the SOFTWARE business and manufacturing, accounting etc. are a small fraction of the software development budget. If I was just making audio CD's it could be done EXTREMLY EXTREMELY cheap (like well under $1 including ALL costs).

You really do have a warped view of how this operates. Sure, if you were a Diamond you could do that yourself - if you had the knowledge! But why would you? Wouldn't it make more sense to pay someone to do it, or buy the CDs of some company dedicated to doing this stuff? N21 for example supports something like 350 Diamonds in 20 or 30 countries. Talks are recorded around the world in 20 languages They have to be edited and checked for compliance with Amway's rule. Some are converted to MP3s and need licencing or other info tagged on. Others may end up on dual CDs with PDF files. Others may end up being streamed online or podcast. Some talks the video is used instead and put as online streams or on DVD. Some need translating done, or subtitles added or whatever.

And you think some guy, who makes zero out of most of these Diamonds Amway businesses, should spend his days doing this for free?

Seriously?

You are a paid shill. Go away please.

Can't argue the points, so resort to making up false attacks. Says it all really.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You really do have a warped view of how this operates. Sure, if you were a Diamond you could do that yourself - if you had the knowledge! But why would you? Wouldn't it make more sense to pay someone to do it, or buy the CDs of some company dedicated to doing this stuff? N21 for example supports something like 350 Diamonds in 20 or 30 countries. Talks are recorded around the world in 20 languages They have to be edited and checked for compliance with Amway's rule. Some are converted to MP3s and need licencing or other info tagged on. Others may end up on dual CDs with PDF files. Others may end up being streamed online or podcast. Some talks the video is used instead and put as online streams or on DVD. Some need translating done, or subtitles added or whatever.

And you think some guy, who makes zero out of most of these Diamonds Amway businesses, should spend his days doing this for free?

Seriously?



Can't argue the points, so resort to making up false attacks. Says it all really.

What is the price that N21 charges at the TOP of the chain. For example if I was in a different organization and wanted to buy their tools what would they charge? If it's $10-$1.80 that's a complete ripoff.

 

[icerat]

What is the price that N21 charges at the TOP of the chain. For example if I was in a different organization and wanted to buy their tools what would they charge? If it's $10-$1.80 that's a complete ripoff.

Well, AFAIK they don't usually sell individual products, they sell a "system" and you can come onboard if you want. In the US CDs range from $5-$7 at full retail, in bulk anywhere from $2.80 to $6.50 depending on the CD and volume, that includes labelling and packaging, not just the CD.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Awesome! So if I'm a diamond I can call up and order these and get a volume discount right?

OR

Do you have to go through your upline so that they can get a cut?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Originally Posted by NobbyNobbs

Originally Posted by icerat
How about packaging? How about unsold stock? Office space? Office staff? Legal and Accounting services? Executive salaries? R&D? Insurance? Taxes? Marketing expenses? Funds for expansion? etc etc

Could you please explain how the bolded items are expenses when selling a CD? I don't see it. Thanks.

I'm not sure what you "don't see"? These are pretty normal costs for ANY business?

Ok, I'll be more specific. You gave the above list in response to a discussion about selling CDs as a tool.

1) In what way is R&D needed to produce recordings of seminars?
2) How much insurance is really needed on something as cheap to create as a CD?
3) Aren't taxes passed down as a part of the cost of the CD?
4) What marketing expenses? Isn't the marketing for the tools word of mouth via upline?
5) What funds for expansion are needed to produce CDs?

Hope that's a little clearer. Thanks.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Yup, this particular example happened in 1993 in Jakarta, Indonesia as part of the market launch. Dozens of permits were required, somewhere along the line there was one that was missed, and the police shutdown the event before the doors even opened. Literally milllions of dollars had been spent by the company leading up to this event. You can imagine how getting shutdown by the police damages your reputation, and it took years to recover. The irony is that apparently the then chief of police is now a very successful Amway IBO!

It's not the first or last time an event has had to be cancelled. Things happen.

Was that Amway itself, or a particular IBO's organization?

I recall that around about the same time, one of the IBOs had a convention at the Georgia Dome. 70,000 people at $250 each. That's $17.5 million before expenses. For one weekend. Not including tools, products, and souveniers. You can't tell me that someone didn't walk away with a truckful of loot from that.

 

[icerat]

Ok, I'll be more specific. You gave the above list in response to a discussion about selling CDs as a tool.

1) In what way is R&D needed to produce recordings of seminars?

No idea, ask a sound engineer. I was thinking more of the other end of production. 8-track->tape->CD->mp3 etc etc

I'm looking for example at a system where a stick mp3 player can be inserted into a PC, automatically run up a screen which can log onto a server and download updated files to the player. What gets shown and or downloaded needs to be customised depending on who is using it, a prospect, a new IBO, a new leader, what language etc etc etc

N21 for example has patented a method for tagging custom licencing and contact info to downloadable MP3s. So you can order an MP3 online, with say a 3 month licence for unlimited use, and it will have your name and email addressed tagged on the end so you can make as many copies as you like and give it out to prospects who have your details on the audio.

This kind of stuff takes time and money to develop.

2) How much insurance is really needed on something as cheap to create as a CD?

Offices, company cars etc etc etc all need insurance of various types, just like any other business. Coca-Cola probably doesn't need insurance to create either, but I'm pretty certain Coke still has insurance expenses!

3) Aren't taxes passed down as a part of the cost of the CD?

All expenses are ultimately passed down in some form as part of the cost of any product sold.

What marketing expenses? Isn't the marketing for the tools word of mouth via upline?

Not just, there's often brochures, videos, website updates, all sorts of stuff

5) What funds for expansion are needed to produce CDs?

No offence, but are you really this naive? Sony decides to launch say Shakira into say the Russian market - and you think it costs nothing more than to produce CDs? Seriously?

 

[icerat]

Was that Amway itself, or a particular IBO's organization?

An IBO support company

I recall that around about the same time, one of the IBOs had a convention at the Georgia Dome. 70,000 people at $250 each. That's $17.5 million before expenses.

No it's not. 5 or 6% of that at least would have been sales taxes.

For one weekend. Not including tools, products, and souveniers. You can't tell me that someone didn't walk away with a truckful of loot from that.

That was probably this event. First of all I seriously doubt there were 70,000 there. Every time I've ever been able to actually check up on numbers at an event, numbers given by distributors has been greatly exaggerated.

Now that event was run by Yager Enterprises. While I'm sure there were a lot of Yager's own IBOs there, I'm pretty certain that many of the attendees were not in Yager's downline, or where so far in depth in his downline he makes effectively no money at all from their Amway businesses.

So Yager Enterprises is taking on all of the effort and risk to put on this event, selling a product to tens of thousands of people that he doesn't make money out of Amway from .... why on earth shouldn't they get "reward" as well? That's business. I fully expect they *did* make a lot of money out of it.

Mind you, the price sounds excessive. It's more than twice what we pay for similar events even after a decade of inflation.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I fully expect they *did* make a lot of money out of it.

I'm glad we agree. Now if you can take off the blinders you'll see how much money N21 is making.

Bottom line, you KNOW they make money, you just don't care or think it's important.

The Amway business sucks bigtime both coming and going.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

No it's not. 5 or 6% of that at least would have been sales taxes.

I did say "before expenses", didn't I?

That was probably this event. First of all I seriously doubt there were 70,000 there. Every time I've ever been able to actually check up on numbers at an event, numbers given by distributors has been greatly exaggerated.

Yes, it was that event. And yes, it was 70,000 people. I know, because I was there. Except for the couple sections directly behind the stage, the place was packed. At full capacity, the Georgia Dome holds about 75,000.

Now that event was run by Yager Enterprises. While I'm sure there were a lot of Yager's own IBOs there, I'm pretty certain that many of the attendees were not in Yager's downline, or where so far in depth in his downline he makes effectively no money at all from their Amway businesses.

So Yager Enterprises is taking on all of the effort and risk to put on this event, selling a product to tens of thousands of people that he doesn't make money out of Amway from .... why on earth shouldn't they get "reward" as well? That's business. I fully expect they *did* make a lot of money out of it.

I won't make the claim that 100% of the people there were in Yager's downline, because I didn't interview them all. However, I'm willing to bet that at least 90% were. Why would people who aren't part of his organization attend? Especially as "cross-lining" is specifically discouraged?

Mind you, the price sounds excessive. It's more than twice what we pay for similar events even after a decade of inflation.

If anything, I low-balled the figure. I can't remember exactly what I paid, and didn't want to be accused of exaggerating.

 

[icerat]

I'm glad we agree. Now if you can take off the blinders you'll see how much money N21 is making.

What blinders? I have no idea how much money N21 makes, and I don't really care. I assume they're quite profitable over all. I do know that they generally take 5 years to reach profitability when they open in new markets - how does that happen without being profitable in some other market?

Whether N21 makes money or not is not what the discussion is about anyway. N21 isn't even an IBO, let alone a Diamond. You've been claiming what ... most Diamonds make as much as 9 times from tools as from Amway? That kind of rubbish is what I dispute. N21 may be owned by a "diamond", but you can seriously claim that because N21, who manufacturs all these products and sells them to huge numbers of Diamonds, that because they may make decent profits, that means each of the individual Diamonds are. It just doesn't make sense.

You take single examples, like the Yagers or Dornans, or some of the other folk that started these companies, and assume with little foundation that Diamonds who haven't started these types of companies make just as much!

Bottom line, you KNOW they make money, you just don't care or think it's important.

Still waiting for just one example of a vanilla Diamond with a yacht that couldn't be bought on $150K/yr income

Still waiting for you to admit your experience was limited to Britt/Yager system and affiliates

I've answered most of your questions. You've pretty much refused to answer ANY of mine. Why is that exactly?