Amway TV ad

[Pushkin]

N21 doesn't charge it's workers/employess/individuals for training materials. You might be following the thread, but you're apparently not understanding it.


You're confusing Amway and N21. Amway does all of those things. N21 is an independent company targetting it's products to Amway business owners. It's no different to Tony Robbins, or Amazon.com or whoever deciding to market to Amway business owners. Of course they charge. It's silly to think they wouldn't.

I'd appreciate your patience then, you were asked in post 405 what N21 was and despite answering you didn't make it clear.

if Amway "does all of those things" how can an independent company make a business from doing the same thing?

can someone work within N21 and Amway at the same time?

if some of the CD's and support materials are supplied externally to Amway what do you get from the upline for nothing? its clear that benefits, health insurance, cell phone, stationary, IT support etc etc doesn't fit into the model. but given you are putting a percentage of your sales profits up the chain then what do you get in return? My office has an annual party and family day - does Amway?

 

[Furcifer]

I bet someone could come in here and explain why Walmart has been so successful, and the relevant discussion would be over in a page.

I know very little about "Wal-Mart" but from what I've seen they buy huge lots and move product as fast as they can whether they take a loss or not. This means a continuous flow of merchandise at a fair market price. They were able to do this early on, allowing them to consolidate their buying power and ensure the lowest prices possible. They represent the most basic and fundamental business model even a child could grasp. While I fear the monstrousity they have become, I can only admire the simplicity of the business model. (issues with the Wal Mart's business practices have surfaced, from union busting to "cult like" rituals. Without getting too far off the OT I'll say at least their business model is admirable compared to the alternative "pyramid" structure. At least fundamentally)

 

[NewtonTrino]

so if the training is handled by a 3rd party

It's not. The training companies are owned and were started by the kingpin distributors at the top of the pyramid.

Now technically I'm sure it's a different corp. But who owns it? The same people you'll find at the top of the pyramid. It wouldn't surprise if there were exceptions.

Also I want everyone to note that Icerat in the posts above has laid out the tools nicely. He just thinks it's ok because it's for training. He also obviously thinks they are terribly profitable. I've seen a lot of peoples experiences not considered valid by him (which is ok anecdotes are not data) so if we do the same thing to him you can see he is bending over backwards to twist this in the best possible light. 70,000 = big dollars. BTW I was at many many of these things with 10,000+ people. That's still not chump change.

Spherical harmonics.

 

[NewtonTrino]

BTW it's clear that Icerate is a true believer. Tactics that seem cult like to us will seem normal to him. The cognitive dissonance is very similar to religious believers from what I've seen. The weekend "seminars" are mostly motivational fluff that is negative towards the outside world. Of course the really interesting meetings are the one for the higher pins where they get to talk about how to split the take from the weekend.

 

[Furcifer]

Also I want everyone to note that Icerat in the posts above has laid out the tools nicely. He just thinks it's ok because it's for training. He also obviously thinks they are terribly profitable.

Oh, I noted he's still collecting residuals and has a vested interest in the continuation of the current business model.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You should ask him how much his business still makes. Anyway I thought it was his ex's business or something? So did she work it instead? Either way they are PLENTY of ex-diamonds so it's clearly not a guaranteed residual even if you build it to diamond.

I also want to remind people to do the math themselves. Given a volume of 5 CD's a month, weekend semiars several times a year etc. these guys are making good money. Diamonds that have a good size organization will make millions per year in tools. I'm not saying they all do but the money is there. One Emerald I worked with was clearing $40,000 a month on tools. Of course as Icerat will point out this guy was under Dex so he probably had one of the more profitable systems around. The point is that there is huge money in this compared to product and this is really where the money is made.

BTW Dex (Dexter Yager http://www.dexandbirdieyager.com/) himself is CLEARLY a cult leader. He's the most famous of the kingpins and is revered by many. I've got pictures of myself on his lap when I was a kid. I did mention that my Dad has been in the business for 30 years right? His office is filled with pictures like that, Dad and Rich Devos, Dad and Dex, me lying on the Amway sign in Ada etc etc. I literally grew up around all of these people which is how I had the "in" to sell software into different organizations. Once I got to see what was really going on with the numbers I realized I could never be a part of it.

I know Icerat claims that my experience is with only one organization but I worked with several different organizations with different tool setups. The Diamonds generally talk enough that it was possible to do this (crosslining is usually forbidden but once you hit diamond and have a big enough business the game changes a little).

Anyway the spin is on. I used to think that once the tool business was exposed that would be it. HA. The dream is still what drives people and it will continue to do so. These guys are masters at continuing to motivate people that are losing money year after year (for example the income tax case I posted earlier).


Hey Icerat, ever hear Doug Wead telling the story about God showing the circles to Moses? I have... about 100 times.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Newton,
I think you're hitting the most important part, although getting it out of Icerat was/is a long and tortuous process.

For the most part, all of his protests really come down to him approving of their overall business model. This is the same type of true believe who years ago argued with people for months, if not years, that "Oh, that was Amway. This isn't Amway, it's Quixtar a totally new company that has fixed everything that was wrong with Amway."

Until it was proven that it was still Amway, just with a new party dress on, and they were forced to work out new tactics. This latest seems to be the "a few bad apples" defence. But the bottom line is that Icerat approves of their business model, morality(or lack of same), and tactics.

We had a conversation about SWOOPO in another thread. The person who makes out like a bandit and gets a 45" flatscreen for four hundred bucks doesn't really care that the total of all bids was $30,000 and that the company doing the selling made 10,000 percent. All they know is that they got a bargain. Similarly with lottery winners, who don't care that the State or City or whomever made a five million dollar profit for the evening, so long as they won some big bucks.

With Amway, it's not even a question of win/lose. It's a question of whether you're willing to use your "talents" in sales/marketing to put the con on friends, neighbors, relatives and acquaintances in order to get to the top of that diamond-shaped pyramid. Apparently many are. And equally apparently, those who don't have those talents are willing to spend money to learn from the head vampires how to get them. I'm not speaking to those people, and I believe you're not (nor are the most vocal here); they've already drunk the Flavor Aid.

What I hope is that we're speaking to people who are on the verge of getting sucked in.

Did you know that a quarter of their sales (a little higher) are in China? 2008 China sales - $2.5 billion I'm a not-so-secret Sinophile. I'd like word to get out to prevent people from falling for this, but apparently it may be too late. The way this fungus spreads, they're going to keep sucking in people just by statistical and mathematical spread, alone.

 

[NewtonTrino]

What I hope is that we're speaking to people who are on the verge of getting sucked in.

This is the reason I keep beating the dead horse. This business is simply dangerous the way it's run. It can screw up your finances, your relationships and just plain waste a lot of time that could be put to more productive use. Of course not everyone will be taken to this extreme but certainly some are (I've seen it personally and there are plenty of personal testimonials on the net). I completely admit the fact that if you are a good salesman that you can make a lot of money in this scam. I do think the golden days of growth are over for Amway in the NA market. If you wanted to grow a business now overseas in really the place. So yes, worldwide education is a must.

If anyone now or in the future does read this thread and it helps them to avoid Amway I would love them to post their experiences.

Participating in this thread almost makes me want to find an N21 distributor and go to some meeting and see what they recommend in terms of cost, time commitment etc. It might make some interesting field reports. Of course even if I see stuff that's horrible Icerat will just say it's only a bad apple... lol

 

[NewtonTrino]

One more thing. Distributors themselves don't treat supposedly "external" BSM companiesas just motivational and training information. They identify themselves as being part of the "network" almost to the exclusion of Amway itself who are downplayed as "just a supplier". I'm sure there are probably exceptions to this (which seems to be Icerat's main "a few bad apples" argument). I would argue it's more like a few good apples but I still think Amway without the BSM's is still a waste of time anway. It's downright criminal, in my opinion, when you include the BSM's and try to create your own cult of personality.

 

[icerat]

You're correct there, it is a generalization. I was making a general statement of what I suspect the general attendee is generally saying. If you're doing well I don't see any reason to attend a quarterly seminar to improve your sales etc.

How about because you've expanded your independent sales team, and you'd like them to attend. It's going to be much harder to get them to go if you don't go. How about to learn about new products. How about to get up to date info on the company as a whole. How about to associate with other people with similar goals.

With the number of attendees and the figures we've seen here regarding "tools" there are a lot of people that feel they need continuous motivation to make very little. I suspect that many make excuses to the contrary at these seminars.

I've gone to these seminars over the years when I'm not building an Amway business and had no intention to. Why? Because I enjoy them. It's a great, inspiring atmosphere. I find afterwards I'm more productive and focused in other areas of my life.

I get value from them. I doubt I'm the only one.

Tacky to discuss your sales with other salesmen? Now you're just sprouting rubbish that shows you have little real experience with what you're talking about. If you find a salesman that isn't talking about the sales he made he isn't making sales.

You're talking about "big ticket" type salesman I suspect, and even then if you got a real estate sales event folk don't go around glouting about their income. Top Amway people are primarily earning through lots of small boring sales, not occasional big exciting sales.

Maybe the salesmen I've met have been of a different cloth, but these guys never stop talking. They'll tell you to the dollar amount how much they wrote off last month on business lunches, and how much they tipped the waitress.

In my experience the more someone gloats about the money they're making, the less they're making.

I saying the Amway culture is a bunch of people deluding themselves into thinking if they only worked harder, read the right materials and attended the right seminars they could achieve Diamond status. I'm saying the culture involves people not being honest with themselves about the actual business propect Amway affords them.

More than once I've seen surveys done at these major seminars where they asked how many of the attendees had spoken to 15 prospects the past month - fifteen. In a whole month. Only about 20% had. When it was moved on to fifteen prospects a month for 6 months in a row, the minimum generally considered needed to build any type of income, there was less than 1% of attendees.

And you think "working harder" won't help the other 99%? Seriously, in what industry could you expect to succeed seeing less than 15 potential customers in a whole month?

You stopped working 10 years ago but continue to recieve residuals, but I'm the one that doesn't understand this is a pyramid???

What a stupid statement. Ever had shares? Earning dividends makes it a pyramid? Ever built a business yourself that had employees that worked even while you weren't there? And that's a pyramid? Heck, seen any of those websites with ads on the side? If someone clicks on them, the website owner makes money! And it's a pyramid?

Get a clue.

 

[icerat]

It's not. The training companies are owned and were started by the kingpin distributors at the top of the pyramid.

it's not even pyramid shaped. So much for your expertise. Generate $25000 or so sales a month consistently you're no longer connected to this supposed "top"

Now technically I'm sure it's a different corp. But who owns it? The same people you'll find at the top of the pyramid. It wouldn't surprise if there were exceptions.

So you're saying that if I happened to own shares in amazon.com, ie I'm an owner of amazon.com, then amazon overnight becomes some scam or something? How exactly does that work, hmmm?

As usual you refuse to answer questions.

Why is it OK for amazon.com to make money if I buy books off them to support my business, but not OK for some company XYZ to make money if I buy books off them?

It suddenly becomes wrong just because whoever founded XYZ has experience in my industry?

And you think I have cognitive dissonance?

 

[icerat]

I know Icerat claims that my experience is with only one organization but I worked with several different organizations with different tool setups.

Where they or were they not all connected to the Britt/Yager system?

Why do you refuse to answer this question?

Hey Icerat, ever hear Doug Wead telling the story about God showing the circles to Moses? I have... about 100 times.

Nope, never heard it.

 

[icerat]

Newton,
I think you're hitting the most important part, although getting it out of Icerat was/is a long and tortuous process.

So I want to get this clear. According to you and Newton Trino, the essence of the problem is that you believe it's unethical for people who succeed in their field to earn money offering their experience to others interested in succeeding in the same field?

the "a few bad apples" defence. But the bottom line is that Icerat approves of their business model, morality(or lack of same), and tactics.

That entirely depends on which "tactics" you're talking about. There's plenty of "tactics" used by varioys Amway people that I don't approve of at all.

The "business model" of buying in volume for a discount, and reselling at a markup, and helping others do the same - I absolutely approve of it.

If you don't, that's a philosophical/political position more than anything.

But honestly, I just think you think it operates differently to the way it does. I'm talking about Amway, you're talking about some thing you think is Amway.

We had a conversation about SWOOPO in another thread. The person who makes out like a bandit and gets a 45" flatscreen for four hundred bucks doesn't really care that the total of all bids was $30,000 and that the company doing the selling made 10,000 percent. All they know is that they got a bargain. Similarly with lottery winners, who don't care that the State or City or whomever made a five million dollar profit for the evening, so long as they won some big bucks.

I'm not sure the connection? You pay money, you get a product. Nobody pays in money and gets nothing such as the example you gave.

With Amway, it's not even a question of win/lose. It's a question of whether you're willing to use your "talents" in sales/marketing to put the con on friends, neighbors, relatives and acquaintances in order to get to the top of that diamond-shaped pyramid.

Here's the difference - I don't think selling people top quality products at a good price is a "con".

If the products are crap, and you need to con people to buy them, then I'd agree 100% with your assertion here. I disagree however with your premises.

Did you know that a quarter of their sales (a little higher) are in China? 2008 China sales - $2.5 billion I'm a not-so-secret Sinophile. I'd like word to get out to prevent people from falling for this, but apparently it may be too late. The way this fungus spreads, they're going to keep sucking in people just by statistical and mathematical spread, alone.

Did you know Amway products are the #1 best selling health and beauty products in China?

This is the bizarre thing about "cult" claims. There's these products used by millions of people around the world. They're backed by 100% money back guarantees. There's hundreds of R&D scientists working to improve them, in partnership with top universities and science organisations. They've won numerous independent consumer awards.

You however believe that all these millions of people ... they have it wrong ... YOU know the TRUTH!!

And you probably KNOW it without even having tried many or any of these products!

Who exactly is drinking the koolaid here?

 

[Pushkin]

Icerat,

can you address my previous question please?

if Amway supplies training materials, has an intranet and takes people on in house training courses all at cost to the centre - how is it possible for an external business to make money doing the same thing?

thanks.

 

[Foolmewunz]

So I want to get this clear. According to you and Newton Trino, the essence of the problem is that you believe it's unethical for people who succeed in their field to earn money offering their experience to others interested in succeeding in the same field?
<snip>

Yes, I believe it's unethical if their "field" consists of learning how to con and badger your friends, neighbours, and relatives into spending money on things they can neither afford nor need and then shaming them into buying even more by telling them "You just don't get it. You need to get with the program and learn how it's done." Especially if learning how its done consists of teaching them, in turn, how to con and badger.

What you are saying you approve of is the same sort of avaricious behavior you saw in the heyday of the market booms on Wall St., and particularly at the NASDAQ. I know guys who were in boiler room operations who constantly preached that that was the way to the real money. "Is it moral? No. Is it illegal, though? No. Let's go to it!"

You cannot have it both ways, IBO-F. You say, when convenient, that you can't compare this to retail operations, but then you keep using "employees" as a model when comparing other businesses. Which are they? Business owners or employees.

I've been in business for 42 years. I have never seen a company send employees to training and sell them a single thing.

If the upper echelon all think like you, and you're somehow able to isolate on the over-aggressive climbers and trying to sell nasty little people on being nasty to other nasty little people, I can just hope you all stay together.

 

[icerat]

Icerat,

can you address my previous question please?

if Amway supplies training materials, has an intranet and takes people on in house training courses all at cost to the centre - how is it possible for an external business to make money doing the same thing?

thanks.

Sorry, I missed that question.

The simple answer is that they don't tend to do the same thing, and they don't do the same things well. Amway does a much better job of, for example, teaching knowledge about the products. This isn't surprising given they developed them.

The external companies tend to do a better job in the motivation/leadership/personal development etc areas. Amway used to do this stuff as well, but the "competition" did it better and Amway effectively decided to step back in this area. One problem, particularly in the US over the past decade or so, was that they also pulled back in the product training area, which the 3rd party companies do not do well, and the business suffered as a result. You can't sell the products on price,you have to market the features and benefits. Too many people never learned this, so instead they have to market the products on the basis you can make money as a business - this can (and did) predictably lead to exactly the kind of "pyramid" claims coming here. Some folk were buying products not because they wanted them, but because they thought they could make money doing so. It's a silly concept and it doesn't, and didn't, work. A number of field leaders got kicked out of Amway a few years ago for taking this too far, stretching (Even breaking) Amway's rules to the extent it *did* verge on illegal pyramid territory.

Amway has realised their mistakes and has developed far more product training again, necessary IMO to build an Amway business profitably and sustainably.

The 3rd party companies still focus on motivation/leadership/personality development.

It's important to note that by far the majority of people who join Amway never use the 3rd party companies. It's also important to note that by far the majority of Amway's volume can ultimately be traced to people who are.

 

[icerat]

Yes, I believe it's unethical if their "field" consists of learning how to con and badger your friends, neighbours, and relatives into spending money on things they can neither afford nor need and then shaming them into buying even more by telling them "You just don't get it. You need to get with the program and learn how it's done." Especially if learning how its done consists of teaching them, in turn, how to con and badger.

I absolutely agree with you, that is unethical. It's also not even remotely what I've experienced with Amway.

What you are saying you approve of is the same sort of avaricious behavior you saw in the heyday of the market booms on Wall St., and particularly at the NASDAQ. I know guys who were in boiler room operations who constantly preached that that was the way to the real money. "Is it moral? No. Is it illegal, though? No. Let's go to it!"

Again, you make up some straw man and attack it. What you described is unethical. It's not how I was taught to build an Amway business, and not I believe how most people are taught. Do some do it like that? Undoubtedly. I'd suggest they're not very successful though.

You cannot have it both ways, IBO-F. You say, when convenient, that you can't compare this to retail operations, but then you keep using "employees" as a model when comparing other businesses. Which are they? Business owners or employees.

Analogies do not have to be exact to be useful for explanation purposes. That's why they're analogies.

I've been in business for 42 years. I have never seen a company send employees to training and sell them a single thing.

I have no idea what the relevance of this comment is.

If the upper echelon all think like you, and you're somehow able to isolate on the over-aggressive climbers and trying to sell nasty little people on being nasty to other nasty little people, I can just hope you all stay together.

Back to the straw men I see. If you want to argue with yourself, use a mirror instead of me.

 

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>

That entirely depends on which "tactics" you're talking about. There's plenty of "tactics" used by varioys Amway people that I don't approve of at all.

The "business model" of buying in volume for a discount, and reselling at a markup, and helping others do the same - I absolutely approve of it.

If you don't, that's a philosophical/political position more than anything.

Let's be clearer, here. Is there a free market? I wasn't aware of one. So they're/you're not buying at a discount and marking up, but buying at a wholesale price and finding as many people downline as you can to buy at slightly less discounts. Perhaps too fine a point in your world, but a considerable one where I sit.

But honestly, I just think you think it operates differently to the way it does. I'm talking about Amway, you're talking about some thing you think is Amway.

No, I believe you're talking about Bizarro World Amway.

I'm not sure the connection? You pay money, you get a product. Nobody pays in money and gets nothing such as the example you gave.

But that's where we differ, once again. I feel the Amway business is not about products. It's about enlarging your personal pyramid so that you get others to send in those checks.

Here's the difference - I don't think selling people top quality products at a good price is a "con".

If the products are crap, and you need to con people to buy them, then I'd agree 100% with your assertion here. I disagree however with your premises.

The products may be good quality (I'm not reaching to "top quality", as I have no idea what that means, and please don't show me another study by Mrs. Taylor's 4th grade class in Dubuque) but I (as opposed to "you") feel that any number of people have shown in this and the other thread and on the hated JoeCool's website, that the "good price" is a sales ploy. You create a buzz/a need in the consumer's mind and they buy at hugely inflated prices.

Did you know Amway products are the #1 best selling health and beauty products in China?

Did you know the Chinese eat scorpions barbecued on a stick?
Will buy back stretchers?
Skin whiteners?
Are you aware that there are 1.4 billion Chinese out there?
As I said, the sheer numbers mean that by attrition and your old standby "hard work", they're going to get people into the web.

This is the bizarre thing about "cult" claims. There's these products used by millions of people around the world. They're backed by 100% money back guarantees. There's hundreds of R&D scientists working to improve them, in partnership with top universities and science organisations. They've won numerous independent consumer awards.

Yeah, yeah. Just because I haven't got the time, I'll concede you the awards, although we've seen that some of the recognition is just spin. But I will take this opportunity to poison the well .... ... I wish someone had the time to examine the bona fides of all those organizations awarding and nominating them.

You however believe that all these millions of people ... they have it wrong ... YOU know the TRUTH!!

Yes. You finally got something correct. Not so much that I know the truth, but that I'm just plain damned smarter than they are. I smelled this rat in 1975 when I was first approached by someone. He was actually depressed when I wanted to buy products from him to help him in his business, because that wasn't his goal. He wanted me to carry the torch onto the next group of suckers so he could build his power base. That was nearly forty years ago, and the number of people who've tried to hustle me since then probably averages about one every three years. And ya know what? Not one of them wanted to sell me the damned soap.

And you probably KNOW it without even having tried many or any of these products!

You assume to much. Probably out of the habit of hanging out with mere mortals. We tend to talk from experience around here - or at least do some research.
I'm on actual medications by an actual doctor, so I have no need for the supplements and I've never used health drinks/sports drinks, but I've tried a whole bunch of the household products. I found them not lacking. I did not find them to be worth 30 to 50% more than you would pay in a large supermarket/superstore.

Who exactly is drinking the koolaid here?

[/quote]

Time will only tell.

 

[icerat]

Let's be clearer, here. Is there a free market? I wasn't aware of one.

What do you mean by this question? Last I checked most of us live in free societies with free markets.

So they're/you're not buying at a discount and marking up, but buying at a wholesale price and finding as many people downline as you can to buy at slightly less discounts. Perhaps too fine a point in your world, but a considerable one where I sit.

So a potential 25% "wholesale markup" is a "fine line"? It can be a very profitable fine line.

No, I believe you're talking about Bizarro World Amway.

In other words, you're accusing me of being a liar - you believe the only reason anyone would by Amway products is because they've been conned.

But that's where we differ, once again. I feel the Amway business is not about products. It's about enlarging your personal pyramid so that you get others to send in those checks.

Sorry? Do you actually believe Amway works by getting people to send you checks? No wonder you think it's a pyramid. You are wildly misinformed.

It's ultimately *all* about products. Recruit a million people, nobody buys any products, you make zero. Zip. Zada. Zot. $0

It's all about products

but I (as opposed to "you") feel that any number of people have shown in this and the other thread and on the hated JoeCool's website, that the "good price" is a sales ploy.

Funny how I have price comparisons showing price competitiveness, with supporting links, and nobody responded to them at all. Yet some anonymous blogger has authority?

I think I'll do another "anatomy of deceit" blog post on JoeCool's bogus "comparsion", but in short, let's look at what he does. Amway manufactures over 450 products. In his price comparison he selects just one of them. The rest a manufactured by other companies. Of those 3rd party brands, most are for the convenience of Amway members, not for resale. Yet he doesn't use the Amway member price.

Of the one product he picks that Amway does manufacture, he compares Double X, a fairly exclusive, premium product - the "ferarri of vitamins" - with a CostCo generic multivitamin -

Double X (31 day supply) $78.05
Multi Vitamins (3 month supply) $24.80 (At Costco)

One has no need to question his agenda, when he *could* have instead done this -

Nutrilite Daily Multivitamin (6 month supply) $22.49
Multi Vitamins (3 month supply) $24.80 (At Costco)

The Amway Daily Multivitamin is *cheaper* for twice as much! (and IMO clearly better).

But he instead picks another product to compare. Why is that do you think?

You create a buzz/a need in the consumer's mind and they buy at hugely inflated prices.

Yup, cheaper than the costco product of worse quality.

Did you know the Chinese eat scorpions barbecued on a stick?
Will buy back stretchers?
Skin whiteners?

Resorting to some form of racism now are we? Amway is also very successful in Japan and South Korea. I guess you can have fun with that fact too.

I wish someone had the time to examine the bona fides of all those organizations awarding and nominating them.

I wish you had the time to.

Examine the bona fides of JoeCool why you're at it.

Not one of them wanted to sell me the damned soap.

Silly them. I'm more than happy to sell you the soap.

I found them not lacking. I did not find them to be worth 30 to 50% more than you would pay in a large supermarket/superstore.

The household products are highly concentrated. They can cost 30-50% more at face value, but if you use them correctly they are generally cheaper.

Time will only tell.

50 years already has.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Icerat,

Come back when you learn what a metaphor is. I'm not going to split hairs with you on every word. (If I'd said, "just so long as those coins keep coming in"... You'd be all like "Coins! Hah! You don't know what you're talking about - no one buys in coins!)

And save the righteous indignation, okay? No one's buying it.

ETA:

Aside/Derail......

Missed this:

Resorting to some form of racism now are we? Amway is also very successful in Japan and South Korea. I guess you can have fun with that fact too.

Don't you dare! Show me a single racist element in my line or apologize. Talk about strawmen!

What do any of the things I pointed out about Chinese consumer traits have to do with racism. I'm pointing out that the buy all kinds of things and indirectly by that, that they are a great big sales persons ideal - a market of 1.4 billion who are easily swayed by fads and trends and pressures.

Have you noticed the slant of the eyes on my son? The cute little Asian kid in my avatar? Would you like to make a further ass of yourself, or is this sufficient for one morning?