America: What's wrong with "socialism", anyway?

[Dancing David]

Looks then just like capitalism.

Thank-you

DDWW

Except for when capitalism has deals not made for the benefit of the consumer or the shareholder but for the kick back from the buddy, the short term scheme of the executive and the corporate raider. So they buy parts at a higher price and lower quality, not because it favors the company or the consumer but because it benefits the executive. They create deals not to make the company stronger and better but to benefit the executive.

So capitalism does not always make for better products, better prices, better competition , better markets or benefit to the shareholders and consumers.

Both capitalism and socialism have their merits and thier detriments, one is not pure in either form.

 

[thaiboxerken]

So you agree that capitalists don't hoard their money, and that investment is better than hoarding?

No. There are capitalists, at the "top" of the chain that horde the money. It's because of the hording that they have billion-dollar estates and bank accounts. Investments can be better than hoarding, or worst.

 

[The Painter]

Originally Posted by The Painter
Factory worker A makes 50 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory worker B works harder and makes 300 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory workers A and B make the same paycheck.
Factory worker B sees no benefit for working harder and drops production down to 50 Thingamajigs in a week, like worker A.
Entire production drops. Soon there are not enough products for the population. Society crumbles.

I see the word "FACTORY" has had a deleterious affect here. Strike the word "FACTORY"

worker A makes 50 Thingamajigs in a week.
worker B works harder and makes 300 Thingamajigs in a week.
workers A and B make the same paycheck.
worker B sees no benefit for working harder and drops production down to 50 Thingamajigs in a week, like worker A.
Entire production drops. Soon there are not enough products for the population. Society crumbles.

Better?

Yes. Yes it is. And much more to the point.

 

[theprestige]

No. There are capitalists, at the "top" of the chain that horde the money. It's because of the hording that they have billion-dollar estates and bank accounts. Investments can be better than hoarding, or worst.

Ooh, the dreaded "bank accounts"! The dirty hoarders! Why, I bet nothing ever gets done with the money in those horrible hoarding "bank accounts"!

ETA: Seriously, name one capitalist at the top of the chain who hoards his money in a "bank account". Warren Buffet? Oops, no, he's one of the world's most prolific and profitable investors. Bill Gates? Oops, no, he's one of the worlds biggest charitable contributors.

Here's a better question (I hope): What do you think happens to the money in an interest-bearing "bank account"? Follow-up question: Why is it always the low-value "bank-accounts" that earn the least interest (if any at all), and the high-value "bank accounts" always earn the most interest? Bonus question: What do you think happens to accounts at an "investment bank"?

 

[Random]

Name one innovation that came from socialist environment... Can't think of one?

Manned space flight?

 

[MikeMangum]

Manned space flight?

Some socialist governments have been fairly decent at producing military technologies. And (hirsute) female olympic teams.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Ooh, the dreaded "bank accounts"! The dirty hoarders! Why, I bet nothing ever gets done with the money in those horrible hoarding "bank accounts"!

ETA: Seriously, name one capitalist at the top of the chain who hoards his money in a "bank account". Warren Buffet? Oops, no, he's one of the world's most prolific and profitable investors. Bill Gates? Oops, no, he's one of the worlds biggest charitable contributors.

Here's a better question (I hope): What do you think happens to the money in an interest-bearing "bank account"? Follow-up question: Why is it always the low-value "bank-accounts" that earn the least interest (if any at all), and the high-value "bank accounts" always earn the most interest? Bonus question: What do you think happens to accounts at an "investment bank"?

What do you think caused this recession?

 

[theprestige]

What do you think caused this recession?

Irrelevant.

The recession wasn't caused by capitalists hoarding money, because capitalists mostly don't hoard--they'd hardly be capitalists if they did!.

 

[Dancing David]

Now on the surface that is reasonable, but how much investment is truly capitalization? IE how much actually goes into means of production.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Irrelevant.

The recession wasn't caused by capitalists hoarding money, because capitalists mostly don't hoard--they'd hardly be capitalists if they did!.

Isn't the point of capitalism to make the most money? Who ever has the most money wins, right?

 

[Nursedan]

Well, that's my "silly" point. If it benefits the whole society, that could be a good goal to some social persons as well - without any personal benefits. And yes, some ideas need to be sponsored to be realized. But that isn't a matter of socialism or capitalism since communist and socialist countries do sponsor research/science etc. as well. So?

What you propose goes against human nature. Why would I work if I know I won't be compensated? Another strike against the concept of socialism. Not only is it smart to look after onesself first, it is a very human thing to do. This is probably why people are associating dictatorships with socialism, becuase once the compensation for good work is removed, force must be used in order to make people work.

(The above is a theory not necessarily rooted in fact)

Edit - I just realized this thread is in the wrong sub-group. It should be in the economics sub forum, since we are talking about an economic model rather than something like communism, which is a political model. Just a thought...

 

[MikeMangum]

Isn't the point of capitalism to make the most money? Who ever has the most money wins, right?

No. The point of capitalism is the freedom to do what you want with your money, within certain constraints, whether that is "bury it in my back yard so that when I die I know my children will have it" or "invest in a no load mutual fund for my retirement" or "start a company and become the wealthiest person in the world".

Or even "give it a charity that I feel deserves my support".

The "point" of capitalism is economic freedom.

 

[AvalonXQ]

What do you think caused this recession?

Government-instigated and government-mandated financial interference designed to skew the market to allow low-income families to get mortgages on homes they couldn't afford.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Except for when capitalism has deals not made for the benefit of the consumer or the shareholder but for the kick back from the buddy, the short term scheme of the executive and the corporate raider. So they buy parts at a higher price and lower quality, not because it favors the company or the consumer but because it benefits the executive. They create deals not to make the company stronger and better but to benefit the executive.

That's a problem with corruption. It could be easily fixed by paying executives a nominal salary and then bonuses in the form of stock options (or something similar) that mature after 5 years. That way they're financially interested in the long-term success of the company.

Much of the recent problems in the financial sector would have been prevented if CEO's were paying more attention to the long-term rather than their quarterly bonuses.

 

[MikeMangum]

What do you think caused this recession?

There were many causes, the primary cause of which was this. The 2 people who contributed most were Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke...and no, I'm not an "audit the Fed!" looney. When your M3 money supply is expanding at around a 15% year over year rate, things are not good.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Funny, I thought it was deregulation of the markets, coupled with corrupt capitalistic practices that caused this recession.

 

[uruk]

In America:

worker A makes 50 Thingamajigs in a week.
worker B works harder and makes 300 Thingamajigs in a week.
workers A and B make the same paycheck (since they are paid by the hour or a set salary)
worker B sees no benefit for working harder and drops production down to 50 Thingamajigs in a week, like worker A. (unless he is a brown noser and looking for a promotion)
Entire production drops so that prices can be kept at an artificial limit.
Soon the cost of lining increases makes the labor cost affect the profit margin.
Company moves factory to foriegn country to exploit lower labor costs.
Worker A and Worker B are out of a job and go on unemployment.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Isn't the point of capitalism to make the most money? Who ever has the most money wins, right?

If that is your understanding, then taking a class at a higher level of economics might be a good idea.

DR

 

[MikeMangum]

Funny, I thought it was deregulation of the markets, coupled with corrupt capitalistic practices that caused this recession.

Then you thought wrong.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Then you thought wrong.

I doubt it. Seems to me that the big investors were doing rather corrupt things. Didn't some company just get caught selling funds that were designed to fail?