After all the Israeli BS......

[RyanRoberts]

Shia martyrdom stems from a futile military gesture, attacking a far larger force. Early christian martyrdom involved dying for rather than attempting to kill for their belief and dying in the process.

There's a fair load of warrior saints in the dark and middle ages, but both the original and commonly understood meanings of martyrdom in Christianity and Islam are different.

 

[WildCat]

They want weapons there are not many places that can buy them from. It means nothing.

It means that most places don't agree w/ the genocidal goals the weapons will be used for. Iran, OTOH...

What you and demon are arguing for is ridiculous. It's like saying that John Wayne Gacy wasn't a serial killer because he was active in his community and helped out w/ various charities. Sorry, but he goes down in history as a maniacal serial killer, not as a Democratic Party activist who did volunteer work for children as Pogo the clown.

 

[geni]

Negotiations with terrorists is a dumb idea. What concessions could one possibly offer?

Historicaly prisoner exchanges has worked quite well. There is also the issue of the Shebaa farms but that would be problematical since it is generaly agreed they belong to syria (ok it is generaly agreed that it would be nice if syria could clear up it's position on who they belong to but untill then they belong to syria).

If I were Israel I'd play the same game a second time. Okay, we've stopped attacking. Now you have 2 hours to release our men or you'll be attacked. It will be a completely different action not connected to the first.

Hezbollah have survived haveing southen lebanon occupied before.

 

[geni]

It means that most places don't agree w/ the genocidal goals the weapons will be used for. Iran, OTOH...

Interesting claim. Of course there is the problem that historicaly wether a groups aims have been genocidal hasn't had much to do with who weapons have been suplied to. The far more praticle reason is that most of the major weapons produces find that it is not in their political interests for a powerful Hezbollah to exist. They are not going to be a mjor purchaser thus selling them weapons is an illogical course.

Sorry, but he goes down in history as a maniacal serial killer, not as a Democratic Party activist who did volunteer work for children as Pogo the clown.

Stop comparing individuals to groups it doesn't work to well (although it could be pointed out that Alexander the Great ordered massacres and history does not seem to have judges him too harshly). How Hezbollah are judged by history depends heavily on the manner of their eventual decline and who the victors are. The most likely case is that by that time the work terroist will have become so devalued that no serious historian will consider useing it.

 

[fuelair]

A brilliantly cogent article:

quote:
Israel to Negotiate Soldiers' Release
OCCUPIED JERUSALEM — After a failed month-long war that cost Israel many soldiers and scores of military vehicles, Ehud Olmert's government is taking the channel Hizbullah described from the very beginning as the only way to secure the release of two soldiers taken prisoner by the Lebanese resistance; negotiations.

"We will have to enter a process which means negotiations" Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told a news conference after the cabinet voted to approve a UN resolution on a cessation of hostilities, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).

"The Israeli government does not intend to let go of the issue," she said when asked about the fate of the two soldiers.

"The prime minister will personally appoint a person who would take care of the issue."

This marks the first time that an Israeli official publicly said they would negotiate for the release of the pair.

Previously Israel had demanded an unconditional release for the servicemen.

The two soldiers were seized by Hizbullah fighters in a cross-border operation on July 12 during which eight other servicemen were killed.

Since day one Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah said the one and only way to free the Israeli soldiers would be through indirect talks and the release of Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails, including Samir Kantar, in prison since 1979.

Unsettled

Transport Minister Shaul Mofaz, the only member of the Israeli cabinet who did not vote to accept the UN resolution, said the issue of the two soldiers partly motivated his decision.

"We cannot decide on the return of our soldiers and then have a ceasefire that does not refer to the issue," he said.

"The resolution doesn't state clearly that Hizbullah should be dismantled and therefore it will not be disarmed," Mofaz said.

A senior diplomatic source told Israel's Haaretz daily said Israel has no information on the fate of Eldad Regev and Udi Goldwasser, but it is assumed they are still alive.

The source said the army has launched high-risk operations to obtain information on the soldiers, but they were all unsuccessful.

Hizbullah has initially proposed swapping the two soldiers for Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails but after a series of Israeli crimes against civilians, parliament speaker Nabih Berri said the conditions have changes, without elaborating.

High on the list of Hizbullah's demands would be the release of Lebanon's longest-serving prisoner Samir Kantar, in prison since 1979.

Israel has long linked his release to receiving credible proof regarding the fate of its missing airman Ron Arad, whose plane was shot down over Lebanon in 1986.

In 2004, Hizbullah and Israel reached a landmark prisoner swap agreement following nearly three years of on-again and off-again negotiations.

Under the agreement, Israel released around 400 Palestinians, 23 Lebanese, five Syrians, three Moroccans, three Sudanese, a Libyan national and a German in exchange for the release of Israeli businessman Elhanan Tannenbaum and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers.

Israel also returned the corpses of 59 Lebanese nationals killed in action
http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2006-08/13/05.shtml

Release the prisoners all right - from bombers flying over Beirut. Oh, notice from your own quote the value Israel places on real lives - even dead ones. My scale is different from theirs though - 1000 Hezbllsht to 1 US, European, Israeli etc. Uncivilized criminals have no value except as targets.

 

[Jon_in_london]

My scale is different from theirs though - 1000 Hezbllsht to 1 US, European, Israeli etc. Uncivilized criminals have no value except as targets.

How about civllised civillians living in a democracy?

 

[WildCat]

Interesting claim. Of course there is the problem that historicaly wether a groups aims have been genocidal hasn't had much to do with who weapons have been suplied to. The far more praticle reason is that most of the major weapons produces find that it is not in their political interests for a powerful Hezbollah to exist. They are not going to be a mjor purchaser thus selling them weapons is an illogical course.

Iran doesn't sell Hezbollah weapons, they give them to them. Because they want to wipe Israel off the map. Iran says so themselves, it's not some wild claim I made up.

Stop comparing individuals to groups it doesn't work to well

It's entirely appropriate in this case. I don't care how much charity work they do w/ the $$ supplied by Iran and Syria, they are a terrorist group whose aim is the destruction of Israel. The charity part is done to further their military aims, it is in no way, shape, or form their primary reason for existing.

 

[AmateurScientist]

It's entirely appropriate in this case. I don't care how much charity work they do w/ the $$ supplied by Iran and Syria, they are a terrorist group whose aim is the destruction of Israel. The charity part is done to further their military aims, it is in no way, shape, or form their primary reason for existing.

That's right. The charitable works are performed cynically, for the purpose of winning the hearts and minds of the Shi'ite Lebanese people. It's no accident that the local Shi'ites express nearly 100% approval and support of Hezbollah. Hezbollah knows how to run a good public relations campaign.

The local people are being manipulated for political gain and don't even know it or don't care. What's in it for me? That's all they care about. Screw the dirty Jew. Throw him down the well.

AS

 

[geni]

Iran doesn't sell Hezbollah weapons, they give them to them. Because they want to wipe Israel off the map. Iran says so themselves, it's not some wild claim I made up.

You belive the claims of Iran?

Supplying Hezbollah with weapons make life difficult for Isreal but it should be remebered that Hezbollah also share Irans anoying. Recent statements by Hezbollah's leadership suggested that they were drifting away from the whole destorying Israel thing.

"Our policy is clear, we are fighting in an area that is still under occupation in Lebanon. And beyond that area, we are on the defensive." Hassan Nasrallah - 2003.

It's entirely appropriate in this case. I don't care how much charity work they do w/ the $$ supplied by Iran and Syria, they are a terrorist group whose aim is the destruction of Israel.

Nah. They are a group who's primary aim is to bring about an islamic revolution in Lebanon. Initialy that involved removeing israel from lebanon.

The charity part is done to further their military aims, it is in no way, shape, or form their primary reason for existing.

It helps their political aims more than thier militry aims. It doesn't really help with their attempts to anex the Shebaa farms.

 

[geni]

That's right. The charitable works are performed cynically, for the purpose of winning the hearts and minds of the Shi'ite Lebanese people. It's no accident that the local Shi'ites express nearly 100% approval and support of Hezbollah. Hezbollah knows how to run a good public relations campaign.

However they only got a little over 50% in the elections. Odd no?

The local people are being manipulated for political gain and don't even know it or don't care.

So is most of the rest of the planet.

What's in it for me? That's all they care about. Screw the dirty Jew. Throw him down the well.

Very few people have much love for recent occupiers.

 

[gtc]

Recent statements by Hezbollah's leadership

I would be interested to hear those statements.

These are the statements I can find:

February 2005

Death to Israel.

July 29, 2006

When the people of this tyrannical state loses its faith in its mythical army, this is the beginning of the end for this entity, because Israel is a country that was established for the sake of an army, and the army in Israel does not belong to the state. Once they sense that this army has become helpless, weak, defeated, humiliated, and a failure, the question will defiantly become one of life or death.

 

[geni]

I would be interested to hear those statements.

Nasrallah emphasized that he was not seeking a confrontation with the United States. Because of Hezbollah’s ability to disrupt a deal between the Israelis and Palestinians, I asked Nasrallah about his view of the renewed talks. He hesitated a moment and declared, “At the end, this is primarily a Palestinian matter. I, like any other person, may consider what is happening to be right or wrong. . . . I may have a different assessment, but at the end of the road no one can go to war on behalf of the Palestinians, even if that one is not in agreement with what the Palestinians agreed on. Of course, it would bother us that Jerusalem goes to Israel.”

I asked, “But if there was a deal?”

“Let it happen,” he answered. “I would not say O.K. I would say nothing.”

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/030728fa_fact

 

[gtc]

I find that hard to square with this:

July 26:

The information that we have so far indicates that all the maneuvers of the enemy forces in recent months, especially in the north of occupied Palestine and in its south, seem to have been preparations for the aggression against Lebanon.

And here, he doesn't seem to be exactly repudiating any link between the two conflicts:

July 21

Victory in this case does not mean that I will enter and conquer the north of Palestine, and liberate Nahariya, Haifa, and Tiberias. This is not one of our slogans. This is a long process, which pertains to the Palestinians and to the nation. This is another issue. The victory that we are talking about - If the resistance survives, this will be a victory

And later in the same interview, this doesn't seem to repudiate any accusations of anti-semitism.

We love martyrdom. We take precautions in order to prevent Israel from making any gains. But on the personal level, and as a personal aspiration, each and every one of us hopes to be destined to martyrdom at the hands of those people, the killers of the prophets and the messengers, and most hostile to the believers, as it says in the Koran.

 

[zenith-nadir]

1) Hezbollah is supplied weapons and money by Iran and the Syrian and Lebanese government help facilitate this support. It is no secret, it is common knowledge, and there is no rift developing between Nasrallah and Teheran.

2) Hezbollah's goal is the destruction of Israel. Always has been. Period, end of story.

December 31, 1999 - "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."

August 8, 2006 - Hezbollah spokesman Hassan Ezzeddin admitted: "If they go from Shebaa, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine."

 

[gumboot]

2) Hezbollah's goal is the destruction of Israel. Always has been. Period, end of story.

Don't forget Hizbollah's motto "Death to Israel" has been expanded to include "Death to America".

I am astounded how quickly people have lumped Israel and the US together in this particular conflict, purely because the US acknowledges Israel's right under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter to defend itself...

So strange... it's almost like people are letting their pre-existing bias colour their judgement of this particular conflict...

-Andrew

 

[AmateurScientist]

So strange... it's almost like people are letting their pre-existing bias colour their judgement of this particular conflict...

-Andrew

Strange? Not at all. It's simply par for the course. This sort of thing tends to bring out the true colors in many of us.

AS

 

[HeavyAaron]

HeavyAaron:
"While the Hezbollah is considered by the US, Israel, Canada and Australia to be a terrorist organization"

Thats all you`ve got?
Jeeze, let me get back to talkng to ZN, I thought he was bad!
What a stooopid verification!

"psst, the nazi concentration camps are pretty nice hotels for jews..." Goebbels.,

It completely varifies my claims. What more would I need? *shakes head*

That you're too dense to realize that a group of thugs that kill as many people as they possibly can is a group of terrorists is not my problem.

By the way, what concessions should/could Israel make to secure the release of their men? I'll keep harping as you don't want to answer. (I wonder why that is?)

Aaron

 

[HeavyAaron]

Historicaly prisoner exchanges has worked quite well.

For whom?

I don't think it's a good idea to release terrorists. Nor do I think it's a good idea to incourage kidnapping. Nope, sorry. Scum stays locked up. Besides, the damands, as I recall, were on the order of 1,000:1 exchange. Let's make it 1:1,000 exchange instead. That must be equally fair, right? Israel gets back their two men, and terrorists get back 2/1,000^ths of a man rounded to the nearest man.

Aaron

 

[geni]

For whom?

For most of those involved.

I don't think it's a good idea to release terrorists.

I tend to work on the basis that reform is posible. The altunative position presents some promblems with regards to free will.

Nor do I think it's a good idea to incourage kidnapping.

Kidnapping? So you don't hold say wildcat's position that Hezbollah are the defacto goverment of lebanon (if you do you have the problem that Isreal is guilty of mass kidnapping).

Nope, sorry. Scum stays locked up.

Scum? Mostly leftovers from the days of the ocupation.

Besides, the damands, as I recall, were on the order of 1,000:1 exchange. Let's make it 1:1,000 exchange instead. That must be equally fair, right?

The numbers are based on the number of individuals that both sides hold and the knowlage that Israel dislikes takeing casulaties. to a far higher degree than groups based around the shia version of islam.

 

[Almo]

The US learned (then soon forgot) in Viet Nam that "attacking" guerillas or terrorists is extremely difficult since they don't wear black hats that distinguish them from the general populace. Each time you mess up and kill a civilian that's not one of the "bad guys," people they know start thinking about being "bad guys."

Perhaps negotiating with the terrorists would be the wrong thing to do. But attacking Lebanon certainly wasn't the right thing either.