Afghanistan

[abaddon]

Except, it turns out I was pretty close to the mark.

Al Qaeda attacks on the west have killed about 200, while sharks are known to have killed half that number, with unquestionably many more not known.

But you claimed that sharks killed far more than al qaeda. No, you are claiming that al qaeda killed more than sharks. Could you please make up your mind such as it is?

193 dead in Madrid. 52 dead in London. Shall I add more? Or are you content to pretend none of it ever happened?

What utter bollocks.

Not to all the corpses that you deny exist.

The question was about western retaliation for Al Qaeda attacks. Since we know from Rwanda, CAR, Zimbo, China and numerous other countries, the west doesn't involve itself in wars where brown and black people are dying.

Sure. You think brown and black people are not people and are trivially expendable. we get that.

And as to deaths, your position is laughable. Take all Al Qaeda deaths and it will be a fraction of the lives lost in or due to the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Rollin' rollin' rollin;. Keep those goalposts rollin' rawhide.

Look, numbers!

Sure. In assessing the death toll we should not even attempt to count the death toll. That makes sense, right?

The war on Afghanistan cost in excess of $2T and 7000 American lives directly lost during the Afghanwar.

Since A'stan and Iraq 30,000 US grunts have topped themselves.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/military/killed

But you dclaimed that the death toll does not matter already.

Yet, here you and a couple of other notables are, claiming the war was morally right and saved lives.

I made no such claim. You made that up out of whole cloth.

I call ******** on that.

It is easy to call BS on a claim you made up.

There are stupid positions to espouse, then there are idiotic ones.

I've stated it now several times - if USA stopped encouraging others to attack it due to its indiscriminate killing of brown people, they wouldn't attack America.

You have also made it clear that brown people don't count.

The thing America could do is keep its vile military-industrial complex out of other countries.

Oh marvelous. The MIC conspiracy nonsense.

And while you're wallowing in your faux righteousness, ask yourself what the west is doing to stop Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram and other groups that only kill black people.

What do you care? Those swarthy people are not people at all in your world view.

 

[abaddon]

Cool - how much do you want on it?

I'll put up a gorilla right now.





Oh I just love it when people PWN themselves without any input from me at all.

I did state "in the western world" and I think your figures are nonsense, so as just asked, please provide evidence for your outlandish claim.

Here's a handy list to start with: https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-56711920110502

Since 9/11, I can see 45 in the UK and not much else.

Sharks looking good at this stage.

Try reading next time.

Madrid 2004, 193 dead. London 2005 52 dead. Bataclan 12 dead.

And you want to pretend that more are killed by sharks? Seriously?

 

[theprestige]

Only one group. Only one region. And they still out kill sharks. Imagine if we tabulated all Islamofascist killings worldwide. There are nation states who have carried out less murderous genocides.

 

[The Atheist]

I note a line has been passed. One of the pro Taliban defenders here has pretty much stated that the 9/11 attacks were justified.
I knew it would come to this.just a matter of when.

Methinks you're confusing the reasons for the attack with justification.

Madrid 2004, 193 dead. London 2005 52 dead. Bataclan 12 dead.

And you want to pretend that more are killed by sharks? Seriously?

Pfft.

How's your claim of 4000 standing up to scrutiny? I see you backed off it pretty fast.

The couple of hundred deaths caused by Al Qaeda are a lot closer to shark deaths than the four thousand you hung your hat on.

 

[abaddon]

Yeah, after almost a hundred years of being the terrorist political wing, they finally gave up.

Hahahaha. No. Just no. You have no clue.

 

[The Atheist]

Trouble in paradise already?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-top-taliban-leaders-missing-from-public-view

 

[theprestige]

Hahahaha. No. Just no. You have no clue.

I'd like to think that I at least have the clue that affiliating yourself with terrorists makes you a party to their terrorism.

But tell me more about how Sinn Fein was not always actually in league with the IRA.

 

[abaddon]

I'd like to think that I at least have the clue that affiliating yourself with terrorists makes you a party to their terrorism.

But tell me more about how Sinn Fein was not always actually in league with the IRA.

In league? Seriously?

Oh boy.

The shinners ARE the IRA.

Not the moderate wing, Not the political wing. The actual IRA in the flesh. Brazenly pretending that they never ever put bullets in people when we all know they did.

Exactly how naive are you?

 

[theprestige]

In league? Seriously?

Oh boy.

The shinners ARE the IRA.

Not the moderate wing, Not the political wing. The actual IRA in the flesh. Brazenly pretending that they never ever put bullets in people when we all know they did.

Exactly how naive are you?

You have entirely the wrong end of the stick. Stop trying to attack me. Start trying to understand what I've been arguing all along.

Your beef is with Cosmic Yak, not me

 

[Arcade22]

Having spent decades working hard to undermine the safety, wellbeing and livelihoods of the Afghan people with ruthless indiscriminate attacks against government forces and civilians alike, the Taliban are now asking the international community to pay for the damage they have caused.

“We faced each other in battle, we didn’t get to know each other in normal times,” said Talib Mawlawi, a Helmand native who fought for the Taliban the first time the group controlled Afghanistan. “Now you can win our hearts and make us happy if you recognise this government."

...

“All those foreign countries invaded and killed our women and our children and our old people, and destroyed everything,” he said. Now the international community should help us with humanitarian aid and focus on developing education, business and trade.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...message-to-west-come-back-with-money-not-guns

Although described as an interview it comes off as little more than an airing of yet another demand from the Taliban eventhough they have done absolutely nothing to earn any goodwill.

Of course the journalist can be excused for not asking any hard questions given the risk to their life if they were to anger the gun-toting terrorist.

 

[The Don]

A BBC article which assesses what life is like under the Taliban.

At Afghanistan's border with Uzbekistan a cargo train rolls over a bridge and into the newly created "Islamic Emirate". The Taliban's white and black flag flutters next to the Uzbek one. Some traders have welcomed the group's return to power. The driver of a truck being loaded with wheat tells me in the past he was regularly forced to pay bribes to corrupt police officials whenever passing their checkpoints. "Now, it's not like that," he says. "I could drive all the way to Kabul and not pay a penny."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58550640

As has been pointed out in this thread and elsewhere, the previous Afghani regime was horribly corrupt and this directly affected the Afghan people.

People are understandably worried about crime and security and the Taliban are tackling this in their brutal, medieval, way.

As we leave the Blue Mosque, we spot a large and excited crowd by the main road, and elbow our way to the centre. Four dead bodies with bullet wounds are laid out on display. One has a small handwritten note on top of it describing the men as kidnappers, warning other criminals their punishment will be the same.

Despite the smell of the bodies under the hot sun, the crowd snap photos and try to push past each other for a better look. Violent crime has long been a major problem in Afghanistan's big cities, and even their critics credit the Taliban with improving security. One onlooker tells us, "If they are kidnappers it's a good thing. It will be a lesson for others."

The Taliban are an unacceptable, brutal, theocratic regime but it seems that, for many Afghans, the previous regime was even worse. I cannot imagine what living under constant fear of drone strike of having a military squad come through your village destroying it in the process.

 

[Planigale]

I note a line has been passed. One of the pro Taliban defenders here has pretty much stated that the 9/11 attacks were justified.
I knew it would come to this.just a matter of when.

I think it is reasonable to say why terrorists think their actions are justified. One may not agree that their reasons are a justification for violence, but if one seeks to defeat terrorism (not just militarily, but ideologically and politically) one needs to stand in their shoes and see the world from their viewpoint. Alqaeda did not come out of nowhere, unless the causes are understood it or something like it is going to persist. So we see that Bin Laden justifies his actions by reference to the genocidal massacre of 2,000 Palestinians by forces under the supervision of the IDF, 5,000 civilian deaths during the siege of Beirut and a total of 20,000 deaths overall during the Israeli invasion, mostly done with US supplied weapons. Certainly the massacre of the Palestinians was a war crime. But not a sufficient war crime for the US to do anything about. In my opinion the US was as complicit in the massacre as the Taliban were in 9/11. That is neither were guilty.

Sharon is dead, Bin Laden is dead, but there will be people who remember the atrocities they committed.

Another more proximate justification is the continued presence of US military in Syria, Iraq etc. The continued habit of the US to fly missiles into buildings killing innocent civilians, often based on poor intelligence. Doing this is more about intimidation, sad that a family was killed but it made the point. Pretty much terrorism. So long as there are people who can say the US flies missiles into buildings and kills women and children because they are muslims and brown, so flying a plane into a building and killing Americans is just following the US example.

To be clear I do not believe this. But I am perhaps closer to what is said in the Islamic world than some. Even many moderate non-violent muslims see a direct equivalence between 9/11 and drone attacks. The number of civilians killed in drone strikes and 9/11 are roughly the same. They do not see the invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq as justified, more the US lashing out in anger at brown people and muslims in general. They do not see the US imposed governments in Afghanistan or Iraq as benevolent or functional, both are highly corrupt and fail in providing security.

Finally please do not mistake these views for ones I believe in, all I am trying to do is bring an alternative view held by many.

 

[The Atheist]

Finally please do not mistake these views for ones I believe in, all I am trying to do is bring an alternative view held by many.

Bloody well said.

Put down the guns.

 

[Arcade22]

Oh look: the Taliban have opened secondary schools ("high schools") for boys but there is no mention of girls being allowed to go to high-school.

The*Taliban*education ministry said secondary school classes for boys in grades seven to 12 would resume on Saturday, the start of the Afghan week. “All male teachers and students should attend their educational institutions,” the statement said. The future of girls and female teachers, stuck at home since the Taliban took control, was not addressed.

The edict makes Afghanistan the only country on earth to bar half its population from getting a secondary education.

In a further sign that the recently announced Taliban government is tightening restrictions on women, the former ministry of women’s affairs building in Kabul has been handed over to the newly re-established ministry for the prevention of vice and promotion of virtue.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...girls-from-secondary-education-in-afghanistan

 

[Arcade22]

In my opinion the US was as complicit in the massacre as the Taliban were in 9/11. That is neither were guilty.

Oh okay so I knowingly rent out a piece of property to people who I know with absolute certainty are using it in committing crimes. I give them aid, assistance, associate with them, defend them even after the police warn me and refuse to do anything to stop or evict them.

I'm completely innocent of any crimes according to you. Go ahead and try that one in court.

 

[Planigale]

Oh okay so I knowingly rent out a piece of property to people who I know with absolute certainty are using it in committing crimes. I give them aid, assistance, associate with them, defend them even after the police warn me and refuse to do anything to stop or evict them.

I'm completely innocent of any crimes according to you. Go ahead and try that one in court.

I provide weapons to people who have come to a peace agreement that I have brokered. When those people break the peace agreement I have been a guarantor for, and commit war crimes using weapons I supply then I am not complicit.

I train and provide weapons to Islamic terrorists to fight against the USSR but I am not complicit in the terrorism.

The Taliban never had the type of command and control that the US has when it's armed forces commit massacres, when the Israelis allow genocide to happen, when CIA trained armed and paid terrorists commit terrorism. Alqaeda was under the protection of the Haqqani network (terrorists and criminals without doubt), the Taliban had little or no authority to deliver what the US wanted. Alqaeda was essentially a creation of the US, the Taliban had no part in creating Alqaeda, they did not agree with their ideology, but the Arab jihadists and the haqqani network were (and are) a military power that the Taliban can only negotiate with not command.

If the Taliban asked the US to hand over the US general who ordered that family of ten (including seven children, the youngest two) for trial what would the US do? If they said Biden has command responsibility (and I suspect the decision to attack was at least signed off by Potus), would the US hand over Biden for a trial in afghanistan for the killing of those children. The US could have alerted the Taliban to the issue. Given the road blocks it was unlikely the suspected car bomb could get to the airport without going through Taliban road blocks. The US made a political decision that a show of force was needed, perhaps vengeance for US deaths. The decision seems pretty negligent, at minimum the general should be charged with negligent homicide. But I guess like the captain of the US ship that shot down a civilian airliner he will get a medal. When the US military commits terrorism there is not much evidence of justice.

If the UK informed the US that an Irish citizen resident in the USA was a terrorist and wanted that terrorist handed over for trial what would the US do?

ETA (Also consider the funding from the US for Irish terrorism and US weapons supplied to Irish terrorists; it not a coincidence that once the US realised the nature of terrorism post 9/11 and support for the IRA was switched off that peace rapidly came to Ireland.)

ETA 2 To be clear my point is the US and the Taliban are equally innocent of international terrorism not that they have no involvement initially.

 

[Arcade22]

Alqaeda was essentially a creation of the US

...

ETA (Also consider the funding from the US for Irish terrorism and US weapons supplied to Irish terrorists; it not a coincidence that once the US realised the nature of terrorism post 9/11 and support for the IRA was switched off that peace rapidly came to Ireland.)

You certainly have some very interesting opinions and i think I've had heard more about them than i can handle.

 

[Planigale]

You certainly have some very interesting opinions and i think I've had heard more about them than i can handle.

Thank you.

My point is these things happened. They are done by agents of the US government. That does not mean that it was policy of the US government, nor that it was the intent of the US government. Yet people seem to give responsibility to the Taliban of actions by others it had little control over. The US government is given a pass on kidnapping, detainment without trial, torture, extra judicial execution, assassination, mass murder, terrorism and illegal war that is not granted to the Taliban.

The Taliban may or not allow girls to attend secondary education in future. I do not know the future nor does anyone else. If they do not it is a bad thing. But probably less bad than killing them before they get a chance to be educated. US financial sanctions that are predominantly on muslim countries lead to children dying because of lack of access to medicines and healthcare equipment.

China's influence is growing because it helps countries (all be it in their own self interest), but it does not judge, it does not punish, or attack, or kill in the way the US does. I do not want a dominant China, but the US is perceived as a bully, and increasingly I think US bullying will drive people to China's protection.

My guess is China will make a pragmatic deal with the Taliban, the Taliban permit no interference with internal China affairs and China will not interfere with internal Afghan affairs. It will just fund infrastructure and resource development. China will protect its back garden in the sameway as the US views Latin America and the Caribbean as being within its sphere of influence. The US gained far more with a carrot in the past and now it seems focussed on using a big stick.

 

[Arcade22]

I'll just point out that peace came to (North) Ireland in 1998, that is three years before 9/11 even happened. This had very little if anything to do with a lack of money or weapons from the US.

But hey, don't let such facts get in the way of your terrorism apologetics.

 

[Darat]

I'll just point out that peace came to (North) Ireland in 1998, that is three years before 9/11 even happened. This had very little if anything to do with a lack of money or weapons from the US.

But hey, don't let such facts get in the way of your terrorism apologetics.

You really think that happened? Yes a subset of some atrocities stopped but the violence continued and continues to today with the various terrorist groups still killing the like of prison officers, never mind the violence they inflict to ensure their criminal activities continue.