Adnan Syed - Serial / Undisclosed

[boooeee]

I think it might be best if I post the map I found of the locations
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zERAsrjje-sU.kQFffQE6h2vk

From what I understand, Jay admitted on the stand during cross examination that the location of Hae's car would be in the midst of his normal routine and that he would recognize her car. If that is correct, it indicates that it would not be any special knowledge.

Do not forget that most speculation was that he at least sold some drugs, that often means a certain amount of cruising of the streets. In addition, on the map, you can see that Patrick's house (one of his drug sources) is nearby. Jen's house is also in that same basic vicinity. I think if we read the clues, that is an area he kind of hung around a lot.

You could very well be right and Jay is involved in Hae's murder. One long suggested idea was that Hae was being a busybody, caught Jay having sex with Jen (Jay was suppose to be dating Stephenie - a friend of both Hae and Adnan), and there was a confrontation. I don't know if that is what occurred but it is at least plausible.

So Hae's mystery killer just happened to dump the car where Jay would find it? Jay, friend of Adnan the recent ex-boyfriend and with whom he spent a good portion of the day of the murder? Granted, anything is possible, but I don't see the point in playing out the implications of such low probability coincidences. Especially when they need to be multiplied by other low probability events in order to arrive at a conclusion other than "Adnan did it".

 

[Desert Fox]

So Hae's mystery killer just happened to dump the car where Jay would find it? Jay, friend of Adnan the recent ex-boyfriend and with whom he spent a good portion of the day of the murder? Granted, anything is possible, but I don't see the point in playing out the implications of such low probability coincidences. Especially when they need to be multiplied by other low probability events in order to arrive at a conclusion other than "Adnan did it".

Maybe you missed this part of the message just before your post
Jay admitted on the stand during cross examination that the location of Hae's car would be in the midst of his normal routine and that he would recognize her car. If that is correct, it indicates that it would not be any special knowledge.

 

[boooeee]

Maybe you missed this part of the message just before your post
Jay admitted on the stand during cross examination that the location of Hae's car would be in the midst of his normal routine and that he would recognize her car. If that is correct, it indicates that it would not be any special knowledge.

It most certainly does indicate special knowledge, since under this scenario he is the first person to find the car. Out of all the people in Baltimore that could have found the car, it just happens to be Jay?

 

[Desert Fox]

I should add this interesting little item. . . .

Similar to the case with Jay and Adnan, James Thompson helped convict James Owens of murder even though later DNA evidence shoudl that neither appears to have been involved.

Also in Baltimore and I believe involved some of the same detectives involved in Adnan's conviction (Same department at least)

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/us-court-upholds-exonerated-mans-lawsuit-against-bpd/28241638

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...wens-southeast-baltimore-baltimore-city-paper

 

[Desert Fox]

It most certainly does indicate special knowledge, since under this scenario he is the first person to find the car. Out of all the people in Baltimore that could have found the car, it just happens to be Jay?

No, many people most likely found the car but he was (potentially) the first person interviewed by the police who knew where the car was.

I was a passenger in a Jeep Cherokee when a women with a tank (old station wagon) pulls out suddenly and his in the side. Does minimal damage to either car but she decided to sue us (she lost the case by the way). Every few days, I would see the car wandering around. Haven't seen it in a couple of years, making me assume that she either moved or got rid of the car.

If the car is dumped in an area where you hang out and you see it, it is not extraordinary. In addition, the car was not that far from where the body was dumped.

If you look at the map, it was 5000 ft from Patrick, one of his sources of drugs, and only 8000 ft from where Hae's body was dumped. I take my dog for daily walks of 3 to 5 miles. I will give you an 80% that I would see the car on my dog walks within a few days. Maybe Patrick walked his Pitt Bull, saw the car, and told Jay?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Wasn't there some weirdness concerning the condition of the car and also a claim that it had been found elsewhere by other police earlier on?

 

[Desert Fox]

Wasn't there some weirdness concerning the condition of the car and also a claim that it had been found elsewhere by other police earlier on?

Well, she was suppose to have gotten into an accident sometime before. I believe it was when she was Dating Don so it could not have been that long. There could have been some minor damage which one might note even though I did not see any in the picture.

Might not be what you were asking though?

 

[lionking]

I want to add that Serial Dynastic takes on every one of Ann Brocklehurst's points and pretty much demolishes them. Might be worth a listen for you.
Edit: His answers are not the same as mine but we have different takes. I don't think that Jay was ultimately involved while he does.
Listening to her actually argue her points, I am not real impressed by them.

Thank you for this. Broklehurst was owned in this podcast. Adnan is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[pantsorama]

It most certainly does indicate special knowledge, since under this scenario he is the first person to find the car. Out of all the people in Baltimore that could have found the car, it just happens to be Jay?

How do we know he found the car? Because if the answer is he said he did, and no one corroborated this (before he met with the police) then we can't eliminate the police finding it.

Wasn't there some weirdness concerning the condition of the car and also a claim that it had been found elsewhere by other police earlier on?

Yes - someone reported it being found to the county police, if memory serves. I can't find which podcast noted that right now, though. My bet is undisclosed, but I can't put my finger on it yet. I am still searching.

Found it:

http://undisclosed-podcast.com/docs/5a/Transcript - Addendum 5.pdf

Susan Simpson
There are indications that it might have been in Baltimore County, to the west of Baltimore City and in a different jurisdiction. This information comes from a February 24th report generated by Detective O’Shea from the Baltimore County Police. He did an NCIC offline search request, which tells him every time an officer has run a check on Hae’s plates. Now, the results of this search are interesting, that there were two searches on February 4th that don't match anything we’d expect to see as part of an investigation. In fact, what they appear to be is two searches done by two different officers on mobile units out on patrol in Baltimore County.

There is much more, but I won't copypasta it here. Go read the link.

 

[boooeee]

No, many people most likely found the car but he was (potentially) the first person interviewed by the police who knew where the car was.

And that doesn't seem unlikely to you? Think of it like a Venn diagram. Set A is the number of people who know where the car is. Set B is the number of people with a meaningful connection to Hae. Both of those sets are pretty small, but Jay just happens to fall in the intersection of those sets?

Do you have any evidence that "many people most likely found the car" prior to Jay leading the cops there?

 

[Desert Fox]

And that doesn't seem unlikely to you? Think of it like a Venn diagram. Set A is the number of people who know where the car is. Set B is the number of people with a meaningful connection to Hae. Both of those sets are pretty small, but Jay just happens to fall in the intersection of those sets?

Do you have any evidence that "many people most likely found the car" prior to Jay leading the cops there?

My answer is more that we cannot be certain how the car was actually discovered.

It could have been that the police found it just prior, Jay could have known where it was due to being near where he hung out, or it could have just serendipity. Could have been that Jay was involved.

What I can say is that things are pretty dark with the Baltimore police department. There are a huge number of lawsuits as well as later overturning of convictions against various suspects of crimes, often involving the same detectives which were involved with Adnan's case.

They involve Brady violations, junk science, threatening witnesses, etc. I looked up some of the cases discussed on the last episode of Undisclosed and they appear to have reported on the cases I looked at accurately. There was something (and maybe still is) something rotten in the Baltimore PD.

 

[bagels]

How do we know he found the car? Because if the answer is he said he did, and no one corroborated this (before he met with the police) then we can't eliminate the police finding it.



Yes - someone reported it being found to the county police, if memory serves. I can't find which podcast noted that right now, though. My bet is undisclosed, but I can't put my finger on it yet. I am still searching.

Found it:

http://undisclosed-podcast.com/docs/5a/Transcript - Addendum 5.pdf



There is much more, but I won't copypasta it here. Go read the link.

On the previous page I posted a link to a document showing that on February 27th the police sent out a request to the transit authority asking for help locating the car. I can't think of a single reason why they would waste the transit authorities time looking for a car they already knew the location of. They interviewed Jay that night, which suggests that unless they happened to find it that 12 hour timespan or so, they didn't know where it was before he told them where it was.

 

[Desert Fox]

On the previous page I posted a link to a document showing that on February 27th the police sent out a request to the transit authority asking for help locating the car. I can't think of a single reason why they would waste the transit authorities time looking for a car they already knew the location of. They interviewed Jay that night, which suggests that unless they happened to find it that 12 hour timespan or so, they didn't know where it was before he told them where it was.

If you look around that area systematically, how hard would it be to find in 12 hours?

 

[bagels]

My answer is more that we cannot be certain how the car was actually discovered.

It could have been that the police found it just prior, Jay could have known where it was due to being near where he hung out, or it could have just serendipity. Could have been that Jay was involved.

What I can say is that things are pretty dark with the Baltimore police department. There are a huge number of lawsuits as well as later overturning of convictions against various suspects of crimes, often involving the same detectives which were involved with Adnan's case.

They involve Brady violations, junk science, threatening witnesses, etc. I looked up some of the cases discussed on the last episode of Undisclosed and they appear to have reported on the cases I looked at accurately. There was something (and maybe still is) something rotten in the Baltimore PD.

My feeling with this case is that BPD probably did have a lot of rotten elements to it at the time, that Jay is a pathological liar, and that the police probably did help him along with his testimony quite a bit, as well as massaging the cell phone evidence in the most favorable way, and various other less than honest tactics. And that Adnan's defense would be wise to pursue those issues if they get an appeal to get the conviction overturned.

But I still feel the most likely and plausible culprit of this crime is Adnan. I don't think an innocent victim was caught up in a total frame job. There are several foundational elements of this crime that just wont budge. Jay knew the location of the car, it's just a solid piece of evidence that can never be explained away. Jay confessed to his friend the cause of death and what happened before anyone knew it was a murder. Adnan was with Jay that day and was seen asking Hae for a ride in the morning. Adnan lent Jay his car and his phone for no reason. Adnan has a clear motive. The Baltimore police bumbling around and screwing everything else up can't erase these facts. But their actions and poor approach to handling the witnesses could very well be enough to raise reasonable doubt.

 

[Desert Fox]

You are not thinking like a teenager
Don't worry, I have trouble doing so as well.

The fact Jay borrowed his car might be significant if it had not happened in the past. From one of the other kids in track, he had driven Adnan's car before and picked him up.

The cell phone came with the car by default because you could not bring a cell phone into school.

You also know that there are witnesses who told the police that Hae told Adnan later that afternoon that she could not give him a ride and he was fine with it. He did not keep pestering her.

I call this "Confessions 101." A confession, to have any value at all, has to have probative value. As far as I can tell, Jay's confession does not match the crime at all. At least nothing that he could not have gotten from the police or the news media. Edit: I should also add that if you listen to his story, it sounds like Jay and Adnan are in the same car even when they could not be in anything like the storyline. This leads me to believe that the whole story is created.

I have a question with you? There have been several girls within the last few years who have disappeared and later found having been strangled. If you were to hazard a guess about how one was killed, wouldn't you very likely guess strangled for her as well?

I do not trust any evidence from Jen if that is the person who you are referring to with regards to Jay confession to somebody. I think the whole time frame of that is just too screwy.

As far as I can tell, it looks like at least three serial killers were wandering around he Baltimore area during that time frame.

To be clear, I am not arguing that Adnan is certainly innocent. I do think it goes beyond reasonable doubt to probable innocence.

 

[bagels]

I don't think Jay is capable of telling the truth about what happened, so I wouldn't expect anything in his story to perfectly match reality. It's possible Adnan came to him on a previous day asking for his help and planning out the crime in advance, and Jay is significantly more involved than his testimony lets on. And it's not so much that he let Jay use his car, it's that he thrust it upon him for no reason. Jay didn't ask for it. I would need a good reason to doubt Jen's testimony beyond it not being compatible with innocence.

If Adnan is innocent he is, as Sarah Koenig said, the unluckiest person in the world. A random serial killer kills his ex girlfriend just when he happens to have motive to kill her. It just happens to happen on a day he gave his car and phone to his criminal friend and when he has no solid alibi. The crime happens to be perfectly compatible with a two car job involving moving the victim's car. The friend he was with during the significant and unaccounted for time period of the day just happens to be the one person in all of Baltimore to stumble onto the victim's car, which has gone unnoticed by anyone else for nearly 2 months. This same friend just happens to arrange in advance a corroborating story about the crime with another friend (Jen).

I guess my question would be, if Adnan really turned out to be guilty what exactly would shock you about this revelation? The guy with the motive and the opportunity to kill the girl is the one who actually did it?

 

[Desert Fox]

Sometimes I think that maybe Adnan is guilty so I don't have any real strong position. I just don't see any strong evidence.

To me, there is not even enough evidence to argue that he is probably guilty but just not beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't really see the motive as being that strong and not even backed up. There is nobody, other than Jay, who indicates that Adnan had any interest in killing Hae. You pretty much agree with me that Jay is a pathological liar.

I have already addressed opportunity. If there was some witness at school whom stated that Adnan got into the car with Hae, I would likely shift my position.

If you go to the Amanda Knox case, Guede tells a story where he was at the home in the bathroom when somebody broke into the house and murdered Meredeth. There is an element of truth in his story and we can kind of strain that out. I would expect such elements of truth in Jay's story.

With Jen, an issue with me is simply that she has been friends with Jay just about forever. There is even the idea that they may have been in business together. Currently, Jen actually has drugs charges pending along with Jay's brother. I believe Jen would lie in support of Jay.

With police "helping" the story, I think we move far from being so many coincidences in reality. Many of the items you see as being significant just do not seem to be to me.

One interesting item though is that Jay has been charged with numerous crimes and has found guilty. Somehow he has always managed to slide out of jail time. He would seem to be the luckiest guy on the planet.

 

[Desert Fox]

I asked my roommate cold a question -

You hear on the news that the body of a young woman was found buried in a park after having been murdered. Guess how the woman has been murdered?

My roommates answer was that the woman was either strangled or stabbed.

My roommate does not pay attention to the news and has not been paying any attention to serial.

 

[Matthew Best]

I asked my roommate cold a question -

You hear on the news that the body of a young woman was found buried in a park after having been murdered. Guess how the woman has been murdered?

My roommates answer was that the woman was either strangled or stabbed.

My roommate does not pay attention to the news and has not been paying any attention to serial.

Does he have an alibi?

 

[kwill]

If Adnan is innocent he is, as Sarah Koenig said, the unluckiest person in the world.

Kind of by definition, eh? Every single wrongly convicted person could say the same.

A random serial killer kills his ex girlfriend just when he happens to have motive to kill her.

This is the part that's really never been established to my satisfaction. Being an ex is not motive to murder. Being an ex puts you into a group that contains more murderers than a group of non-exs, but that's about it. Millions of teenaged boys get dumped every day of the week. How many commit murder? How many with no prior history of violence or emotional instability commit muder?

It just happens to happen on a day he gave his car and phone to his criminal friend and when he has no solid alibi.

Jay was in the habit of borrowing cars, not just from Adnan but also from 3 or 4 others at WHS. He was the weed connection. That part isn't unlucky. The phone, however . . . phew. That really was unlucky. Adnan had just bought it the day before.

The crime happens to be perfectly compatible with a two car job involving moving the victim's car.

Nah. Have you read Jay's creative descriptions of how they supposedly dealt with two cars? Sometimes he provides dialogue that takes place while they're in different cars, maybe because the person he was actually with was sitting next to him in Hae's car.

The friend he was with during the significant and unaccounted for time period of the day just happens to be the one person in all of Baltimore to stumble onto the victim's car, which has gone unnoticed by anyone else for nearly 2 months.

Maybe . . . it's possible that others saw the car, but none of them had a motive to tell the cops about it. Just because Jay did doesn't mean he was the only one who could have.

This same friend just happens to arrange in advance a corroborating story about the crime with another friend (Jen).

Again, how do you know this story was arranged in advance? Jenn says the cops came to find her as she was leaving to go meet Jay. At that point -- according to her -- she tells them she'll come down later, after she goes to see him. It seems like you're giving the two of them a whole lot of faith. I find Jenn's stories pretty strange, on the whole.

Just for one thing, the narrative about helping Jay unload his grave-digging clothes and boots on the day after murder is not credible. That day was a major weather catastrophe, with power out all over the county and ice all over the roads. She could have been out driving around to help Jay hit a dumpster, but she would -- IMO -- anchor her memory of that drive to the storm. She doesn't even mention it. She says that it "might have been raining." I don't believe this happened, or at least not on the day or in the way that she describes it.

I guess my question would be, if Adnan really turned out to be guilty what exactly would shock you about this revelation?

I'd be shocked as hell that the detectives never found out any details of the crime that made sense, and yet managed to convict the right guy anyway.