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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

DavidJames said:
Here is one post by Hal:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2007858&postcount=46
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Thanks DJ.

Hey, Snowygrouch:

Read this very carefully, and slowly, it is from the link DJ provided. This is from a man who was in the building when it was hit.
Hal said:
I am a Pentagon survivor, I held airplane parts in my hand that day as I did my small bit of service. I talked to people *at the time* who spoke of reading the airline name from the side of the aircraft as it crashed into our building. I am a just-retired AF Lt Colonel, with 25 years of service at retirement. I have served at the Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, and the US Air Force Academy, in addition to being an ICBM commander. I held, at my retirement, a TS/SCI clearance. I say there was an airplane, I saw it.

Am I a liar?

Lt Col Hal Bidlack, Ph.D.
USAF Retired

note: I do not, as a rule, post on this forum any more, but I can not allow this assault on the honor of the people we lost that day to go unchallenged.
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What is the value, other than for the fun of decoding an FDR, of putting the career of a woman at risk over nitpicking details when, quite simply, AA 77 hit the pentagon?

DR
 
Snowygrouch said:
Im not interested in debating this as it will simply degenerate into the inevitable mud slinging that always occurs.

The flightpath is several degrees off, the angle of attack is incorrect and the altitude is incorrect.

(taken purely from the animation)

If it comes up ok in the FDR file then its clearly just a fuss over nothing. If not....then.. there are only more questions!

I posted my contact all my research on this to try to "get a bite" and she looked it over and told me it was certainly worthy of further investigation. Hence why she helped me. What the outcome is....who knows! I dont and freely admit as such.

Discussion is pointless at this stage as until the decode is done I have no futher information at hand than that currently available on the net.

The repackaging refers to the data frames NOT the fdr file. So does not effect the outcome; no numerical values would be changed.

Once the decode is done we can chat.
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Is it done yet? I want to see the radio altimeter data.
 
If the data is stored as 4 seconds frames; was the last data frame stored part of a 4 second frame that did not make it. I think 9:37:44 was the first second of a 4 second frame. Data already compressed was not recorded.

I wonder if even Boeing knows what the maximum amount of data lost is when the plane is in a .2 second complete smashup at 500 mph.

There has to be some data lost at the time of impact; I doubt Boeing knows the minumum to maximum amount of time not recoreded.

I think there are up to 6 seconds missing based on the last data recored and the fact the FDR was found in the Pentagon. I believe that a 4 second frame had been compressed and was being stored as the plane struck the Pentagon. That means 3 seconds already compressed but being written as the plane crashed were missing. Plus 4 seconds of new data was being collected and ready for compression as the plane crashed.
 
T.A.M. said:
Has JDX ever shown anything but cowardice when it come to debating with JREFers. Look, he has his pool boy deliver his messages.

TAM
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Alot of posters here TAM showed cowardice when I offered my free $500 USS Liberty challenge.

I'd like to know about how the NTSB could offer their own simulation if the JDX simulation is flawed due to a corrupted "retrieval process"/"whatever it was'
 
I have two simply questions about the FDR.

1. Does it indeed show the plane flying at a different trajectory then the official story suggests?
2. Does it indeed show the plane at an altitude of several hundred feet just prior to impact?

These are the main contentions of the conspiracy willys and I assume there are simple answers.
 
parky76 said:
I have two simply questions about the FDR.

1. Does it indeed show the plane flying at a different trajectory then the official story suggests?
2. Does it indeed show the plane at an altitude of several hundred feet just prior to impact?

These are the main contentions of the conspiracy willys and I assume there are simple answers.
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1. Do you mean heading? The FDR heading(70.0 degress magnetic, 59.5 true) lines up perfectly with the mechanical damage path in the Pentagon as well as the lightpoles.
2. The last recorded pressure altitude was 173', which when you account for local pressure deviation from "standard day", roughly equals 470 ft above sea level, or 440 ft above ground level.
 
parky76 said:
I have two simply questions about the FDR.
1. Does it indeed show the plane flying at a different trajectory then the official story suggests?
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No, it doesn't. In fact, it shows the exact opposite.

2. Does it indeed show the plane at an altitude of several hundred feet just prior to impact?
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It shows neither, in fact. It doesn't give a reliable (enough) altitude reading, and it's not certainly conclusive when this reading was taken in relation to impact.

The CTers have claimed they have decoded additional data and it proves their case. They haven't provided this data, so we can't check it. Essentially, they are claiming they have proof and asking us to take their word for it.

As best as I can tell, the additional data they claim to have supports the official story more than their own paranoid fantasies.
 
Anti-sophist said:
No, it doesn't. In fact, it shows the exact opposite.

It shows neither, in fact. It doesn't give a reliable (enough) altitude reading, and it's not certainly conclusive when this reading was taken in relation to impact.

The CTers have claimed they have decoded additional data and it proves their case. They haven't provided this data, so we can't check it. Essentially, they are claiming they have proof and asking us to take their word for it.

As best as I can tell, the additional data they claim to have supports the official story more than their own paranoid fantasies.
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I looked at their data for hours. It is match, within feet. The DME data is posted in a random fashion ever 8 seconds or so. The last DME is 1.5 from DCA.

They have one less second than the NTSB decode! ONE less Second.

Their data ends before the 173 feet altimeter, with a 273 foot Radar Altimeter reading. Then NTSB has an extra second.

The extra decoded data includes another set of Lat and Long that starts off 3000 feet north offset from the runway at takeoff. They do not come up with why this offset would be good at the end of flight.

With the heading data and the 1.5 DME being in the next to last second, the last second the JDX idiots have. Puts the best known FDR position 2800 feet from the Pentagon on course to do the damage. Remember I have to project the heading back to pick up this point. This is a line 70 degrees magnetic from the Pentagon, and the Radar Altimeter is okay with this area of 130 MSL ground, plus 273 feet Radar gives you 403 feet MSL for the plane which is close to the 173 corrected for local QNH to be 430 MSL or so. (radar is calibrated to gear down on ground of zero)

2800 feet to go is a steep glide slope for landing, perfect for hitting the Pentagon. The altimeter is not too far off due to speed. I was speeding one day and my altimeter was right on. I know they were going faster but the plane is still in the ball park for hitting the Pentagon.

I believe at least 4 seconds of data never made it to the chip.

I think the FDR matches what was seen on 9/11 and is missing part of the last recored frame and an entire frame or more of 4 seconds.
 
Is weedwhacker the poster known as JDX?

weedwacker said:
If the csv file is off, the animation produced by the NTSB must be off as well.

Why would the NTSB provide an animation of the flight in error?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzR-q0ijbV0

The above is just the final portion of the flight. The entire animation is available from taxi out of Dulles to take off to end of data. It matches perfectly with the CSV file time stamps, engine parameters, headings, airspeeds, ATC instructions for altitudes, headings, navigation, etc.

I guess the NTSB went through all the trouble to make an animation in error along with the csv?

Also, JDX has provided these questions for anyone willing to answer.

1. What is the True Altitude at end of data recording :44. How did you come to your conclusion.
2. What is the vertical speed at end of data recording :44. How did you come to your conclusion.
3. What is the Absolute Altitude and end of data recording? How did you come to your conclusion.
4. Why does the csv file show the altimeter being set in the baro cor column on the descent through FL180, but the animation altimeter does not show it being set?
5. Why do the current G Forces for the last minute of data correspond to the changes in vertical speed, yet at end of data :44-:45 it shows an increase in vertical speed never accounting for any type of level off to be level with the lawn as shown in the DoD video?
6. Do you have any video showing a clear impact and/or of the plane on its approach to impact?
7. Why does your animation show a flight path north of the reported flight path?
8. Why are there no system indication of any impact with any object up to and after :44?
9. Why does the csv file and animation show a right bank when the official report requires a left bank to be consistent with physical damage to the generator?
10. How did you come to the conclusion of 09:37:45 as the official impact time?
11. What is the exact chain of custody of the FDR? What date/time was it found? Where exactly was it found? Please provide documentation and names.
12. Why does the hijack timeline show a 3 min interval for hijacking to take place? Why did Capt Burlingame not follow protocol for the Common Strategy prior to 9/11?


Good day!
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Anti-sophist said:
Heh, this is great.

I don't know who Parmenides is, but he's using my graphs in an argument with JDX. JDX's response to my analysis:


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12995&st=0


And yet here is how all this started:

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/index.php?showtopic=92


I guess you challenge JREFers, and once you get a response, claim you don't care what they have to say. That's one tactic.
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Then do they have the "frame descriptor"?

and is...

"273 foot radar altitude.. a hard number above the ground?"
 
Anti-sophist said:
....Many of the parameters were "not working or unconfirmed". I should probably add up how many samples, total, occur during each frame in the CSV file and see how that total compares with the total bitrate, to see how much data got thrown out.

The RADALT data wasn't included in the CSV file. This is because the government knows it will bust the case wide open if they release it! (oh wait.. that's JDX's line).
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From where did JDX extract the Radar Altimeter data?

I believe he said .fdr file..
 
jessicarabbit said:
The point of the call was that James Meigs had pretended Chertoff was a junior researcher on the 911 project. During the call he admitted he was in fact a senior researcher.

The call did its job beautifully.
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Is this true? Did Meigs really maintain Chertoff was a "junior researcher"?
 
apathoid said:
The last radalt plot is paired with the second to last pressure altitude plot(238 ft) which means it is at least 2 seconds old, maybe 3 or 4. If the pressure altitude of 238(510' msl)' is accurate, the radalt should read around 480' or so, but since it reads 273', that would indeed back up our contention that the pressure altitude was lagging.
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I'm not following this. There are no other numbers under the 238 reading for pressure altitude. Wouldn't that be last paired with last?

In the film, Carl (Snowygrouch) is not even concerned with pressure alt. He only quotes radio alt.

Bonus: The roll and pitch angle (sorry, no correlation with counter that I can see, but this is the last bit of recorded data) from the "decoded" FDR raw data.

Roll Angle Pitch Angle
-0.07 -6.2
-0.04 -5.8
ND
ND
ND
ND
1.1 -5.3
1.8 -4.9
2.5 -4.6
2.8 -4.4
ND
ND
ND
ND
3.5 -4.2
4.6 -4.4
5.6 -4.6
6.3 -4.7
ND
ND
ND
ND
6.3 -4.9
6.3 -5.1
6.0 -5.1
5.3 -5.6

Avr Pitch -4.985714286
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The ND stands for blank fields in both of these columns. By my guess that means that data wasn't in the buffer to be recorded - and there's no telling if that last data bit is the same frame as the last alt readings.

But look at that roll. That's consistent with the right wing rising to avoid the transformer, right?
 
boloboffin said:
I'm not following this. There are no other numbers under the 238 reading for pressure altitude. Wouldn't that be last paired with last?

In the film, Carl (Snowygrouch) is not even concerned with pressure alt. He only quotes radio alt.
Click to expand...

The NTSB squeezed another second out of the raw data that D'oh and Co. didn't manage to get. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

ETA: The final pressure altitude reading was 173'
 
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