AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[Skeptic4Sure]

There are no anomalies. This is a lie. The anomalies are solely in the minds of people who cannot interpret the data properly. That's the unfortunate reality. This is like a doctor trying to explain why witchcraft isn't going to cure cancer to a voodoo priest.

So why then is there no explanation given and why do we need to rely on some anonymous guy on the internet for the explanation versus the NTSB or Flight Data companies?

 

[DavidJames]

So why then is there no explanation given and why do we need to rely on some anonymous guy on the internet for the explanation versus the NTSB or Flight Data companies?

Because normal people look at all the evidence and have correctly concluded AA77 hit the Pentagon. I hate to tell you this, but much of life is biased towards people who think rationally and logically. Those of you who are unable to, face a struggle. I believe if a legitimate person or organization were to present a detailed hypothesis backed by detailed analysis and supporting evidence, agencies like NTSB would be forced into reviewing the case. But the ranting lunacy found on CT sites hasn't come close. There is no reason for them to spend a nickel more. Sorry.

 

[Anti-sophist]

So why then is there no explanation given and why do we need to rely on some anonymous guy on the internet for the explanation versus the NTSB or Flight Data companies?

Because you aren't even asking rational questions. The questions you pose are ill-formed and betray your ignorance on the issue. I'd offer you my help to actually get answers to these issues, but you aren't interested in answers. You are interested in finding the conclusions you already know to be true.

They aren't going to waste time answering such poorly formed questions, because in order to answer they'd have to teach you all the things I am trying to teach you. You'd just chalk it up to "sowing confusion" and "misinformation". At the end of the day I think you need to accept the fact that this **** is not simple. In real life a magical CSV doesn't show up at your doorstep, and it has all the answers to all the precisions. Explaining how they do what they do is long and complicated. I know you guys want simple answers that make sense, but as some point you need to learn the material in full to be able to fully understand it.

 

[uk_dave]

Is Undertow conceding that OS's paper was not full of the errors UT originally came here to trumpet?

 

[UnderTow]

Depends on which part your talking about. I still find fault in some sections, but they are minor (ambigous, terminology, or referencing a CSV fault in a sentence discussing the FDR) and dont' affect the overall summary except for what I will state now.

The CSV (with it's inherrent 1sec window of error for those parameters recorded once per second) and the Graphs are both generated from the FDR. The CSV is generated for easy viewablitity and over-all (greater then several seconds) study but is not subsecond accurate without the specific locations of the parameters within the FDR. The Graph doesn't really matter imho.

To comment on his Final Summary:

0) Absolute Time Error
It’s probably safe to assume +/-2 seconds of error in the absolute time
False Claim: The FDR couldn’t have recorded 9:44:46, the official time of the crash is 9:44:45!

I don't know where this claim comes from and I have never stated such. But this paper is directed at 'them' and not 'me' so who knows. This Time value is there, therfore it was recorded. It's relation to real-world time before it was sync'd during the investigation is up for grabs. Time sync within the plane is most definately very strict (microseconds?).

1) Instrument Error

I haven't even looked at this here so I don't know. I'm sure there is a different multi-page thread discussing it somewhere.

2) Intra-frame Time Error
False Claim: The aircraft’s speed at 09:37:14.00 was 305.5 knots!

Again, don't know where this claim comes from. The 1 Second Zone I have always assumed is just that.

3) Digital Buffering Latency
[data] from the Air Data Computer, has an enormous error range, in the vicinity of 2 seconds, although 1.5 seconds is probably a safe estimate (0.5s for the buffering latency, and 1s for the uncertainty of when the sample was actually recorded)
False Claim: The worst case scenario for the 9:14:14 frame’s airspeed is 9:14:14.00, then!

I don't know what claim is being referenced here either. But I find fault in suggesting that a parameter 'recorded' during one second (after Time.00) would be a value from Time-1.5 seconds.

4) Simultaneity Issues
You cannot assume any two samples occurred at the same time. Any analysis that combines two columns of numbers is risking using numbers that did not happen at the same moment in time, for a calculation that assumed they did.

False Claim: The altimeter data shows you’d need positive acceleration to hit the light poles, the accelerometer is showing negative acceleration! (Did you account for the +/- 2 seconds, potentially, between those two separate data points?)

Still unsure what Claim he is referring to but whatever. The +-2seconds is also false for parameters that appear within the same frame/row of the CSV unless he's referencing his Absolute Time error which is not relevant to this Claim.

The Bottom Line on Error
a full error range of 3 seconds

I still find this ridiculous within the scope of the parameters most concerned. Time,Accleration(s),Speed,Alititude, etc. If we are talking about unimportant parameters like a Seat Belt Light, well who cares. Every instance I have seen of Word location for the most crucial required parameters places them within the first 50 words. In our subject's 256wps frame this means these crucial mandatory parameters are recorded to FDR within .2 seconds of our .00 Time Stamp. For instance, TWA800's AirSpeed was located in Word 38. If this placement is similiar in AA77's Frame, AirSpeed would be recorded at +00.15 seconds.
But again, we don't know 'exactly' so there can be no real conclusion to any argument over this I suppose.

And finally (since I just realized I never even got to his Summary) let me state my view on that.

Summary
1) The FDR did not record the final moments of Flight 77. There is up to 2 seconds missing.
2) The CSV file is not meant to be analyzed forensically, it is meant to be plotted.
3) The CSV data is not raw FDR data. It is not even serial bitstream data.
4) The CSV data is not meant to be broken down into 1/8th seconds and analyzed.
5) The CSV data, properly interpreted, says that there are N samples during this particular frame.
6) Without the frame description, we do not know when in a frame any one sample occurred.
7) Without the frame description, we have lost the measurement timestamps, so the time a particular word was recorded does not necessarily equate with when it was measured.
8) Given these time-shift errors, any mathematics that uses more than one data-point runs the risk of assuming that two numbers occurred at the same time, when they didn’t.
9) Many of these errors can be corrected, greatly, with the frame descriptor.
10) Any analysis must account for (or justify ignoring) these issues in order to draw any valid conclusions.

1) The FDR will record data (or 'something') up until it is detached from all power. The CSV does not show the final 2 seconds other then a Time value. Whether partial data or no data occurs in the FDR we can't say. To say that the FDR stopped recording 2 seconds Before impact, error.
2) Agreed on the first part in regards to the extreme hundreths of a second we keep talking about. The 2nd part I don't agree with but if he wants to say that s'okay I guess.
3) Of course
4) Except for those parameters which are recorded N per second.
5-7,9) Can't say I ever disagreed with these
8) I only assume they're recorded during the same second. But to think that the Altitude and Speed Measument could differ by 2 seconds in plane time, I don't think so.
10) Duly noted where applicable.

I will concede that is not Full of errors, but it does have some. Whether or not it matters to the us vs them crowd (or even AntiS) I don't know.

That is all for now.

 

[UnderTow]

Is Undertow conceding that OS's paper was not full of the errors UT originally came here to trumpet?

I'm not trying to be a butt-hole or anything, but why didn't uk-dave ask me.
Nevermind, I can imagine his reply to this already. "I didn't think he'd be back.."

ack

I'm not trying to be a butt-hole or anything, but why didn't you ask me.
Nevermind, I can imagine your reply to this already. "I didn't think you'd be back.."

ack

 

[jessicarabbit]

For the sake of humour if nothing else please listen to this phonecall where someone from pilotsfor911truth.org rings the NTSB regarding the anomolies in the flight path. They say we cannot elaborate and don't even recognise that 77 is the plane that hit the pentagon.

 

[jessicarabbit]

heres the link

 

[jessicarabbit]

http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/video_phone_call_regarding_aa77_data_recorder.htm

 

[DavidJames]

For the sake of humour if nothing else please listen to this phonecall where someone from pilotsfor911truth.org rings the NTSB regarding the anomolies in the flight path. They say we cannot elaborate and don't even recognise that 77 is the plane that hit the pentagon.

[qimg]http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/video_phone_call_regarding_aa77_data_recorder.htm[/qimg]

This, is the CT world, is what passes for research. An anonymous person calls "The NTSB" and starts asking questions. When they don't get the answers they expect - it becomes part of the conspiracy.

These are the same folks who sent an email to a friend of someone who works at Boeing and were shocked that "Boeing" refused to cooperate.

 

[jessicarabbit]

This, is the CT world, is what passes for research. An anonymous person calls "The NTSB" and starts asking questions. When they don't get the answers they expect - it becomes part of the conspiracy.

These are the same folks who sent an email to a friend of someone who works at Boeing and were shocked that "Boeing" refused to cooperate.

Its good though. The guy who signed off the report didn't even remember 77 hit the pentagon. These people investigate plane crashes, its a good job they don't have to do important stuff.

 

[beachnut]

the FDR data is the fact, the video map and flight path on that map are not sync exactly

not sure why, but then you would have to read this thread to find out why

Inforwars does not have any facts useful for this thread.

The phone call by infowars showed how dumb the caller for infowars was. The first term comes out of his mouth is wrong.

Infowar, what a hideout for CT

300 post behind, and infowar phone call proves what?

What about the missing data?

How many seconds are missing due to the crash into the pentagon?

These are where the thread needs help, not some real dumb call that proves infowars is a poor research place.

 

[mcMike]

Its good though. The guy who signed off the report didn't even remember 77 hit the pentagon. These people investigate plane crashes, its a good job they don't have to do important stuff.

Maybe you could check out NTSB investigations database and see how many there actually are.

Start here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.asp

Try to imagine the poor guy in the phone when some "Jeff" just calls and starts asking about flight this or flight that. There are about 5000 incident reports from 2001 to 2006. You think he should remember every report and flight?

Ok. Flight 77 and Pentagon might have been top priority but since 9/11 there are 2152 reports with Fatal-status alone. Plus almost 3000 non-fatal.

I was kinda impressed he actually did call back to some individual.
And wasn't Flight 77 FBI's investigation in the first place? NTSB just did the work to them. They are in no position to release any information about other than those spesifically requested with FOIA.

 

[jessicarabbit]

Maybe you could check out NTSB investigations database and see how many there actually are.

Start here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.asp

Try to imagine the poor guy in the phone when some "Jeff" just calls and starts asking about flight this or flight that. There are about 5000 incident reports from 2001 to 2006. You think he should remember every report and flight?

Ok. Flight 77 and Pentagon might have been top priority but since 9/11 there are 2152 reports with Fatal-status alone. Plus almost 3000 non-fatal.

I was kinda impressed he actually did call back to some individual.
And wasn't Flight 77 FBI's investigation in the first place? NTSB just did the work to them. They are in no position to release any information about other than those spesifically requested with FOIA.

This Jeff character is a legend. He rang Davin Coburn after that interview with charles goyett and called him out on everything. He phoned the FBI several times. Theres nobody he won't ring.

 

[Anti-sophist]

Just want to say I've been moving over the past few days, and I'll get to Undertow et al. once things settle down. Another day or two.

 

[CurtC]

This Jeff character is a legend. He rang Davin Coburn after that interview with charles goyett and called him out on everything.

I haven't heard that one, but I did hear the one he did a few months ago where he called Benjamin Chertoff (of Popular Mechanics). Ben was polite, but was confused about why some dipwad had just called his office about 9/11 while he was in the middle of another task.

I wouldn't call that one legendary, more like "pathetic."

 

[beachnut]

This Jeff character is a legend. He rang Davin Coburn after that interview with charles goyett and called him out on everything. He phoned the FBI several times. Theres nobody he won't ring.

He is a rude nut case. No facts, no brain, no idea on FDR, no idea on how the ground map on the video lines up with the flight path.

This telephone call is not helping this thread.

If you have information on the FDR about how many seconds of data are missing due to the crash and how the aircraft systems work, it would be appreciated.

To lend any credence to this harassing telephone call is ludicrous.

If you were familiar with putting data from the FDR into a video, many times there is no ground map associated with the video.

In flight 77 case, it would be interesting to know how they matched the flight path with the ground map? The final heading of the FDR matches 9/11.

Infowars as a source; as good as making up evidence.

 

[jessicarabbit]

I haven't heard that one, but I did hear the one he did a few months ago where he called Benjamin Chertoff (of Popular Mechanics). Ben was polite, but was confused about why some dipwad had just called his office about 9/11 while he was in the middle of another task.

I wouldn't call that one legendary, more like "pathetic."

The point of the call was that James Meigs had pretended Chertoff was a junior researcher on the 911 project. During the call he admitted he was in fact a senior researcher.

The call did its job beautifully.

 

[Gravy]

The point of the call was that James Meigs had pretended Chertoff was a junior researcher on the 911 project. During the call he admitted he was in fact a senior researcher.

The call did its job beautifully.

Yep. Really opened a chink in the armor of the NWO/Illuminati/Lizard People there. Next: proof that the birdshot Dick Cheney uses is made in Germany!

 

[jessicarabbit]

Yep. Really opened a chink in the armor of the NWO/Illuminati/Lizard People there. Next: proof that the birdshot Dick Cheney uses is made in Germany!

It proves popular mechanics lie, hence they are discredited.

Keep up the sarcasm gravy.