A world without marriage

[SezMe]

Some questions off the top of my head. Do they have an STD problem? Where did the word "Daba" come from? To what extent has their culture already been impacted by the "outer" world. Do they already have computers there? Do they trade with China or other regions? If so, what?

TIA.

 

[Wolfman]

Wow. What Bluess said.

Wolfman, did you write this part of the Wikipedia article on the Mosuo?

Virtually the entire Wikipedia article was written by me, yes...and is mostly copied from the more extensive information on our website.

Just wondering if the the Hans script is similar to the Dongba script you mentioned in one of your posts (#28)?

I also think it would be very interesting to add a .jpeg file showing the Daba symbols to both your web site and the Wiki article.

"Han script" is actually just normal Chinese writing. Dongba is more pictographic, and would resemble hieroglyphics more than Chinese writing. And yes, am working on adding a lot more content to the site, including pics of the Daba symbols.

Also am curious if you wrote or agree with this part of the Wiki article?

There is also a very important historical component which is often unknown to (or ignored by) those studying the Mosuo. Historically, the Mosuo actually had a feudal system in which a small "nobility" controlled a larger "peasant" population. The Mosuo nobility practiced a more ‘traditional' patriarchal system, which encouraged marriage (usually within the ‘nobility'), and in which men were the head of the house.

It has been theorized that the "matriarchal" system of the lower classes may have been enforced (or at least encouraged) by the higher classes as a way of preventing threats to their own power. Since leadership was hereditary, and determined through the male family line, it virtually eliminated potential threats to leadership by having the peasant class trace their lineage through the female line. Therefore, attempts to depict the Mosuo culture as some sort of idealized "matriarchal" culture in which women have all the rights, and where everyone has much more freedom, are often based on lack of knowledge of this history; the truth is that for much of their history, the Mosuo ‘peasant' class were subjugated and sometimes treated as little better than slaves.

The truth is, as in most situations, both more complicated, and more fascinating. There is a very viable argument to be made that the "matriarchal" system of the Mosuo was actually enforced to keep them in servitude to the ruling Mosuo class. Yet, practically speaking, this system has led to a number of unusual traits within Mosuo society. Mosuo families have an incredible internal cohesiveness and stability; and certainly, Mosuo women do not (within their culture) face many of the struggles and barriers that women in many other cultures do.

It does seem to have the ring of truth to it, and helps make it more understandable how a society developed where men had very loose ties, if any, to their children.

Yup...as I said above, I wrote most of the content there; all content was not only written by me, but checked and approved by both Mosuo leaders and anthropological researchers. So I'd consider its veracity to be fairly reliable.

Do they have an STD problem?

Ah, there's a MAJOR potential problem. Historically, no, STDs do not seem to have been a significant problem. However, these days, huge numbers of Mosuo girls are being lured away to work as prostitutes in larger cities (one potentially negative aspect of Mosuo culture is that since they consider it normal to have multiple sexual partners, and have no expectation of virginity or monogamy, Mosuo girls tend to be more easily lured into prostitution, particularly when they see no other way to make money).

At present, there is no reliable data regarding STDs among the Mosuo; and conducting studies is difficult because the Chinese gov't is wary of outsiders getting such information, then using it to criticize gov't policies. We are attempting to work with several China-based health organizations that can help us in this area.

However, it doesn't take a genius to see the potential for huge danger. Mosuo girl goes off and works as a prostitute for a few years. She gets an STD, but isn't aware of it. She returns home. She has multiple sexual partners, who in turn have multiple partners of their own. Within a relatively short time, an STD could sweep through an entire community.

There is another aspect to this...the Mosuo are generally considered "primitive" and "uncivilized" by the Han Chinese, a description that the Mosuo obviously dislike. They are therefore loath to have a perception that their traditional culture of walking marriages could actually be responsible for the rapid spread of dangerous diseases...that would only 'confirm' Chinese opinions about their culture. So it is a very sensitive matter to even get their willing cooperation in such a venture.

Where did the word "Daba" come from?

That's a romanized version of the word they use in their own language; I don't know what the specific roots are.

To what extent has their culture already been impacted by the "outer" world. Do they already have computers there? Do they trade with China or other regions? If so, what?

That really is hard to answer, because it varies depending on which communities you talk about.

The main Mosuo community that everyone knows about is on the edge of Lugu Lake, a gorgeous lake high in the Himalayas that straddles Sichuan and Yunnan provinces. This is a major tourist center, and as such has become a typical tourist trap. Almost nothing here represents 'real Mosuo culture', but is rather a charicature of Mosuo culture, exaggerating some aspects, ignoring others, and generally presented by Chinese tour guides who really don't understand the culture at all. In this area, the impact has been huge.

There are communities close to Lugu Lake that are trying to cash in on Lugu Lake's popularity (and ability to make money) by developing small tourist industries themselves, mostly modeled on the system at Lugu Lake. In this case, there's been some negative impact, but not so much, and much of their daily life is still very 'typical' Mosuo culture.

In the first two instances, the Mosuo involved have electricity, and therefore access to TV (few have computers), so they've also seen more of the 'outside' world, and been influenced to a greater or lesser degree by that. But in the third category, we have lots of remote, tiny villages scattered throughout the mountains. Most of these don't even have electricity, and have very limited contact with the outside world. In these cases, their life today still goes on much as it has for hundreds of years. They are aware of the outside world as a general concept, but have little understanding of it, and are not very influenced by it.

Computers are a major issue for our organization. Obviously, in communities that don't even have electricity, computers are a bit problematic. But even in communities that do have electricity, computers are often too expensive for most Mosuo (consider that even a cheap computer would represent several years' salary for the average Mosuo).

However, for students in China to gain admission to senior high school or college/university, they must pass standard entrance examinations that include tests of their computer skills. Its pretty damn difficult to pass a computer examination if you come from a village that doesn't even have electricity.

Education is an entirely different subject, which perhaps I'll tackle a little later on.

 

[Wolfman]

First, would like to thank everyone for your compliments and kind words!

Second, I'd really like to express my gratitude...I've made posts about the Mosuo, their culture, and our work with them on a number of other online forums, and aside from quick "gee, that sounds nice" responses, got very little feedback, and very little interest in learning more about the Mosuo.

Here' I've got people who are reading everything I'm writing (and, by this point, its a LOT of stuff!), and coming back with intelligent questions and requests for more information. For a guy like me (who often feels like he's operating in a vacuum), that means a lot.

So...thanks!!

 

[sphenisc]

And while the Mosuo are quite loose in regards to relationships, they would have problems with a guy who did a mother and daughter in the same family

Are there incest taboos? How are they 'policed' if paternity is not regarded as significant? Great OP BTW!

 

[Wolfman]

Are there incest taboos? How are they 'policed' if paternity is not regarded as significant? Great OP BTW!

Thanks!

Yes, there are incest taboos, but it is 'policed' in a very interesting way. The matriarch of the family will keep track of the different relationships, and warn their children against potentially incestuous relationships. An example:

Let's say a woman has had two partners at around the time she gets pregnant. She doesn't know for sure which is the father. She'll inform her mother about both men. When those children are older, and start to date, the matriarch will then warn them away from relations with children who come from either of those two men's families.

Its not the most scientific of methods, but it seems to work.

Oh...and sexual relations between members of the same family are most definitely taboo.

 

[Wolfman]

Was just thinking about the Mosuo attitude towards same-sex relationships. This is something I don't really have extensive info on (its not a question you tend to ask people casually), but have talked with a few closer Mosuo friends about it. Their responses are interesting.

They seem to feel no particular revulsion at the idea (which is certainly very different from the vast majority of Chinese), it isn't something that they consider sick or disgusting. They just seem to feel that it doesn't happen (or very, very rarely). If I ask them a question like, "If you knew that guy was having sex with another man, what would your reaction be?", they'll respond with something like, "Well, I guess that'd be up to him, its his choice, but I don't know anyone who actually does that".

I find these reactions interesting because there seems to be no implicit societal taboo that would prevent homosexual relationships, yet such relationships either do not exist among the Mosuo, or else are kept secret despite not being particularly taboo.

However, in truth, I've only talked to four Mosuo about this, so it is hardly authoritative, and I have not yet met any anthropologists who've done any real work in this area either.

On the lighter side of this topic -- because of the whole matriarchal, no marriage thing, the Mosuo attract a significant number of feminist and/or lesbian visitors. Now please understand, I have no problems with either feminism or lesbians...but there are always, within any given group, a certain number of extremists and crackpots, and Lugu Lake seems to attract more than its share. These are women who go there not so much with an interest in sincerely understanding the Mosuo, as they are in squeezing the Mosuo into whatever predetermined agenda they've already decided on.

When I first started setting up this organization, and was looking to see what info was available online, I stumbled onto a website of an American woman -- a proud feminist and lesbian -- who, after spending a grand total of two days among the Mosuo, went back home to write about her experiences. According to her, Mosuo women are almost entirely lesbians, sharing their bedrooms at night and keeping men cooped up in common sleeping quarters like cattle; men were only invited into their rooms when they decided they wanted to have a baby. It is a kind of Chinese version of the Amazon myth.

What blew me away was just how little anything she wrote even remotely resembled the actual Mosuo culture; yet I knew there were people reading this who would inevitably end up believing it.

This is one of the main reasons why, for myself, I insist that anything that goes on our website, or our public materials, is vetted by numerous Mosuo, and by knowledgeable anthropologists, to try to ensure that it is not just a case of me transferring my own subconscious expectations on to them, but rather is as accurate and truthful a representation of the Mosuo culture as possible (and whatever mistakes do inevitably creep in are purely my fault, but I am confident they'll be corrected in a timely fashion by others in our organization).

 

[Kaylee]

Virtually the entire Wikipedia article was written by me, yes...and is mostly copied from the more extensive information on our website.

"Han script" is actually just normal Chinese writing. Dongba is more pictographic, and would resemble hieroglyphics more than Chinese writing. And yes, am working on adding a lot more content to the site, including pics of the Daba symbols.
Yup...as I said above, I wrote most of the content there; all content was not only written by me, but checked and approved by both Mosuo leaders and anthropological researchers. So I'd consider its veracity to be fairly reliable.

Yes, I thought you wrote both. Again -- great job, its very informative and easy to read. I was just trying to understand why they can't continue to use Hans script?

Also I was wondering -- how does the Chinese policy of "one family, one child" apply to the Mouso?

 

[Skeptic]

In most cultures, a man will be responsible to care for his own children; in Mosuo culture, a man is responsible to care for the children of his sisters/nieces/aunts/etc. So Mosuo men still have full parenting responsibilities...perhaps even moreso, since they may end up sharing responsibility for the children of many family members.

Very interesting. What this shows, I think, is that while there is no marriage, there is also no illegitimacy--that is, most children (a) know who their fathers are (and the fathers do not deny it, even if they have no role in caring for them) and (b) have two male and female adults (mother and her brother) take care of them.

Also, it's easy to see why this social arrangement will discourage promiscuity. In general, most men will be responsible for raising, roughly, the same number of children as they have, even if they don't raise their own children.

However, if you are a man who has too many partners--or, more important, too many children--you are probably seen as a freeloader: someone who makes society take care of their many children while only caring for a few of society's children in return.

Am I correct here? You're the expert, I'm just making an educated(?) guess.

 

[Skeptic]

Hey, I saw her first...Get lost!

Heh. Actually, while this woman can hardly be said to be sexy, she is by no means ugly--just an older woman.

 

[Wolfman]

Yes, I thought you wrote both. Again -- great job, its very informative and easy to read. I was just trying to understand why they can't continue to use Hans script?

Oh, they can and will continue to use standard Chinese writing; that is, in fact, required by Chinese law, and certainly a reasonable requirement. All Mosuo children will at least go to primary school, and all education is conducted in Chinese.

We are not seeking to 'replace' Chinese as their written language, but to add written Mosuo in addition to written Chinese. Orally, they are bilingual (Mosuo and Chinese languages); but in writing, they can only write one language.

Many Mosuo, to try to prevent the loss of their cultural legacy, have made efforts at writing down their oral history using Chinese. However, the fact is that this is a translation, and as such inevitably loses some of its impact, meaning, and context in the translation. For example, many rituals and songs are very poetic and rhythmic, but when translated into Chinese, although the general meaning may be preserved, it sounds awkward and clunky.

At present, there are significant efforts being made to make audio and video recordings of the Daba priests reciting this oral legacy, in order to preserve it. But this is hampered by the fact that some of them regard it as a sacred tradition to be handed down only from father to son, kept within the family (an interesting side note here -- Daba priests and their families actually follow a patriarchal system; this is a holdover from the past lord/servant dichotomy that was mentioned by Shera above, in which the priests were part of the ruling class).

This also has the problem that, while it accomplishes the goal of preserving this knowledge, it doesn't help so much with teaching it. Consider if you were required to write an essay about War and Peace, and had only an audio transcript. Certainly, listening to it would be easy enough, but when it came time to study it in detail, find specific passages, etc., it would be a royal pain in the behind.

In general, we view the use of Chinese translations and oral/video recordings as very useful, but nevertheless as stopgap measures; creating a full written form of the language is really necessary to preserve both their language, and much of their cultural legacy.

Also I was wondering -- how does the Chinese policy of "one family, one child" apply to the Mouso?

Actually, in China, all minorities are allowed two children per family. However, in regards to the Mosuo, this doesn't make much difference, as the Mosuo are pretty much self-regulating in regard to population, it is part of their culture.

Another significant benefit of their walking marriage system is that male and female children have equal status; there is no preference for a male or a female child, because neither will leave the home when they get married. The only 'preference' as such is that if one family has too many males, and another has too many females, they may swap babies to maintain proportions.

If a particular household is getting too small (usually under 10-15 people), the women within the household will have more babies. If a particular household is getting too large (usually over 20-25), they will stop having babies (they don't have contraception in general, but do apparently have various herbs that can be consumed to induce a miscarriage -- abortion is not an issue among the Mosuo).

The result is that overall numbers remain pretty much constant.

Very interesting. What this shows, I think, is that while there is no marriage, there is also no illegitimacy--that is, most children (a) know who their fathers are (and the fathers do not deny it, even if they have no role in caring for them) and (b) have two male and female adults (mother and her brother) take care of them.

Also, it's easy to see why this social arrangement will discourage promiscuity. In general, most men will be responsible for raising, roughly, the same number of children as they have, even if they don't raise their own children.

However, if you are a man who has too many partners--or, more important, too many children--you are probably seen as a freeloader: someone who makes society take care of their many children while only caring for a few of society's children in return.

Am I correct here? You're the expert, I'm just making an educated(?) guess.

You're correct that the Mosuo really have no such concept as an 'illegitimate' or 'bastard' child. Even the concept of an orphan, while not entirely nonexistent, is significantly lesser...since even if both biological parents die, there's still a large extended family that continues to fill the parenting niche. To be a real "orphan", you'd have to lose your entire extended family.

However it would not be accurate to depict men who have too many partners as freeloaders. For the simple reason that, as described above in my response to Shera, women pretty much have full control over their bodies, and their decision whether or not to have a child. They will only have children if that is what they want.

 

[Earthborn]

Fascinating.

Interestingly enough, unlike almost every other culture in the world, Mosuo females consistently outperform Mosuo males on mathematic and scientific tests...

What sort of mathematics do they have? Do they have their own number system and calculating aids?

How do they view people who do not wish to fit into the gender roles? For example, what if a boy wants to do calculations or a girl wants to do some physical labour? Or even wants to take on the opposite role completely?

I find these reactions interesting because there seems to be no implicit societal taboo that would prevent homosexual relationships, yet such relationships either do not exist among the Mosuo, or else are kept secret despite not being particularly taboo.

There does seem to be a taboo on knowing who does it with whom, considering the whole "climbing through the window in the dead of night" business. So it perhaps there is homosexual behaviour going on, but people just don't want to know about it.

 

[Wolfman]

Fascinating.

What sort of mathematics do they have? Do they have their own number system and calculating aids?

Ah, sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about their performance in the regular (ie. Chinese) education system.

How do they view people who do not wish to fit into the gender roles? For example, what if a boy wants to do calculations or a girl wants to do some physical labour? Or even wants to take on the opposite role completely?

So far as I've seen, this is usually acceptable. The person might be considered a little strange, but I don't think there would be any condemnation. And in the face of modern realities, gender roles are certainly shifting. It is a fact that males will stand a better chance of being admitted to mathematic/science programs in college/university (since these are Chinese institutions that still tend to have a strong male bias), so it can be seen as more practical for the boys to focus on this area. On the flip side, for day-to-day physical labor, such as taking care of the livestock, planting the fields, etc., this does tend to fall under the woman's responsibility (as explained in a previous post, Mosuo men traditionally traveled in caravans as traders, so any daily jobs were the responsibility of the women). Mosuo women are very feminine...but also very healthy and strong, not at all delicate or fragile.

Its really a rather complex structure, and I will inevitably simplify some aspects of the culture as I try to explain it; these questions help a lot to clarify some of those issues, and hopefully give a fuller, more comprehensive picture of the culture.

There does seem to be a taboo on knowing who does it with whom, considering the whole "climbing through the window in the dead of night" business. So it perhaps there is homosexual behaviour going on, but people just don't want to know about it.

As I said above, I don't really have enough personal knowledge in this area to comment authoritatively; but my own personal suspicion is that the Mosuo attitude towards homosexuality will be somewhat similar to that of the U.S. military..."Don't ask, don't tell".

 

[SezMe]

Ah, sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about their performance in the regular (ie. Chinese) education system.

Do they use arabic numbers? Do they know scienfic notaton, for example?

New area: What is their medical system like? Do they have any western medicine? Do they have a hospital such as I in the USA think of it?

 

[Wolfman]

Do they use arabic numbers? Do they know scienfic notaton, for example?

New area: What is their medical system like? Do they have any western medicine? Do they have a hospital such as I in the USA think of it?

These are slightly different questions, in that they don't really relate to Mosuo culture as such, but rather to Chinese culture and politics. Education, health care, etc. are all under Chinese control, not Mosuo.

To answer your questions quickly -- mathematics and science are taught using standard international systems and notations (otherwise, how could Chinese mathematicians and scientists exchange results with those from other countries?). In big cities, there are some hospitals that are quite modern and developed, but many more that lack modern equipment (not from lack of perceived need or desire, but from lack of money). In rural areas, medical care is minimal at best. For example, the Mosuo village that I usually live in is seven hours by non-stop driving over twisting mountain roads to get to the nearest 'real' hospital.

And all Chinese hospitals tend to incorporate both Chinese and western medicine; the x-ray lab will be next door to the acupuncture section, and the pharmacy will have a "western medicine" and "chinese medicine" section.

 

[SezMe]

Just a quick note tonight, Wolfman. I've posted my questions without much context but only because I'm fascinated by your experiences. I really appreciate your responses. As I read them, many questions just pop into my mind and I have just posted them as I go along. Please don't take this posting style in this thread as anything other than a rambling thought process.

 

[Wolfman]

SezMe,

Please don't take my comment above as a criticism of your questions...I appreciate everyone who's taken the time to read all of this, and has the interest to ask questions. I just wanted to specify that it wasn't a specifically Mosuo-related question to avoid misunderstandings in relation to my answer.

Please do feel free to post any/all questions.

 

[Kaylee]

Oh, they can and will continue to use standard Chinese writing; that is, in fact, required by Chinese law, and certainly a reasonable requirement. All Mosuo children will at least go to primary school, and all education is conducted in Chinese.

We are not seeking to 'replace' Chinese as their written language, but to add written Mosuo in addition to written Chinese. Orally, they are bilingual (Mosuo and Chinese languages); but in writing, they can only write one language.

Many Mosuo, to try to prevent the loss of their cultural legacy, have made efforts at writing down their oral history using Chinese. However, the fact is that this is a translation, and as such inevitably loses some of its impact, meaning, and context in the translation. For example, many rituals and songs are very poetic and rhythmic, but when translated into Chinese, although the general meaning may be preserved, it sounds awkward and clunky.

Oh, OK. I had misinterpreted the Wiki article than.

Script

Generally, the Mosuo uses the Han script for daily communication. The Tibetan script is mainly used for religious purposes.

I had assumed that this meant they transliterated vs. translated Mosuo into Hans or Tibetan script.

At present, there are significant efforts being made to make audio and video recordings of the Daba priests reciting this oral legacy, in order to preserve it. But this is hampered by the fact that some of them regard it as a sacred tradition to be handed down only from father to son, kept within the family (an interesting side note here -- Daba priests and their families actually follow a patriarchal system; this is a holdover from the past lord/servant dichotomy that was mentioned by Shera above, in which the priests were part of the ruling class).

This also has the problem that, while it accomplishes the goal of preserving this knowledge, it doesn't help so much with teaching it. Consider if you were required to write an essay about War and Peace, and had only an audio transcript. Certainly, listening to it would be easy enough, but when it came time to study it in detail, find specific passages, etc., it would be a royal pain in the behind.

In general, we view the use of Chinese translations and oral/video recordings as very useful, but nevertheless as stopgap measures; creating a full written form of the language is really necessary to preserve both their language, and much of their cultural legacy.

I admire what your association and the Mouso are doing, and I appreciate what a challenge it must be.

 

[Wolfman]

I had assumed that this meant they transliterated vs. translated Mosuo into Hans or Tibetan script.

Transliteration isn't really practical, as there are sounds (and sound combinations) in the Mosuo language that don't exist in Mandarin Chinese or Tibetan. I know of Mosuo who've made attempts at this, but the result is worse than just translating it into Chinese (or some other language).

I admire what your association and the Mouso are doing, and I appreciate what a challenge it must be.

Thanks!

 

[luchog]

On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism plays a much greater role in their lives. Buddhist monks walk the streets, there are monasteries for teaching and housing monks, prayer flags wave from the branches of every tree, old women walk the streets spinning prayer wheels, etc.

Daba is practiced on a more ritual basis...for births, deaths, naming ceremonies, sickness, etc., the Daba priest will be called in to perform the relevant ceremonies.

It sounds similar to Japanese religious culture, and the melding of Buddhism and Shinto. Although with the Japanese, there was historically a class divide between the two.

 

[luchog]

Adapt Daba symbols. Although the Mosuo have no written form of their language, their religion, Daba, does have a variety of religious symbols. These symbols do not represent an alphabet or language (it would be similar to they symbol of the cross, or the fish, or the dove, in Christianity). However, we could adapt these symbols to have each symbol represent one sound in the Mosuo language. Advantages – it provides a written form that is derived directly from the Mosuo culture, and is immediately recognizable to the Mosuo. It also encourages preservation of a unique part of their culture.

As strictly an amateur dabbler in linguistics (and philology to a lesser extent), I find this to be a particularly interesting, and in my mind aesthetically pleasing, choice. Creating an entire symbolic system, rather than just adapting an existing one, is a unique challenge. I'm reminded of the development of the Hangul (Korean) writing system. Are you using something like that as the model for your Mosuo script, or a more arbitrary sytem?

Sounds like a truly exciting project to be involved in, and I definitely envy you.