A world without marriage

[Wolfman]

Initially, our linguists will break the language down into its component phonemes (there are several regional dialects, so we have chosen the most common one as 'standard' Mosuo language). Once we see how many phonemes we have in total, we will see if there are enough Daba symbols to match one symbol to each sound. If not, we may end up having modified symbols. There are a total of around 32 Daba symbols (this number varies a little depending on who you talk to), but if there are more distinct phonemes than symbols, it is not a significant problem; just drawing a line under each one would double the number of symbols available to us, which should yield more than enough symbols for our use.

Second, the linguists will work with the Mosuo to assign one symbol to each phoneme. Where possible, they will try to create a linguistic link between the symbol and the sound it represents (for example, if the symbol's actual name is "mah", then that symbol could be used to represent the "m" sound). This facilitates learning the symbols later, similar to our "A is for Apple" methods in the west. But this will not always be possible, some symbols will simply be assigned more or less arbitrarily.

Third, some of the symbols are a little awkward to write in their current form, so we will ask local Mosuo artists to create stylized versions of the symbols; versions that are similar to the original, but easy to remember and to write.

Then, once that is all done, we start teaching it to them. We anticipate starting by teaching a core group of local Mosuo teachers; once they understand and are competent in using the new written form, they will begin creating textbooks based on that, for both children and adults, that can be used to teach this to everyone else.

The remaining barrier is a political one; only the Chinese gov't has the 'right' to designate an official written language (being 'official' means it can be taught as part of the regular school curriculum). This is kind of a catch-22, in that the gov't won't recognize it as official unless a significant number of people are using it; but you can't have a significant number of people using it unless it is being taught to them. So we'll mount a more-or-less grassroots campaign, where all training is done outside of the classroom. Mosuo infants will be taught in the basics of reading/writing their own language before they begin to attend primary school, and after they begin school, we'll have classes once or twice a week, outside of the regular school hours, to reinforce that.

It is our hope that this becomes the de facto standard, so that later the gov't does recognize it, and we can include it as a part of the regular education curriculum.

 

[Wolfman]

Creating an entire symbolic system, rather than just adapting an existing one, is a unique challenge.

I agree. One of the most important aspects of this to me is that the Mosuo themselves really take ownership of this project, and of the written language. The involvement of outsiders is necessary, we don't have Mosuo who have the necessary knowledge and skills to do this themselves. But there is a danger when doing it this way that some Mosuo end up perceiving it as something being pushed on them by outsiders.

Involving the Mosuo in every step of the process, and particularly letting them choose what the final characters look like, and which sounds they represent, is very important in giving them a sense that this is a language they created...we were just there to assist them.

And there is also the sense, the first time the Mosuo see this written form, that their reaction isn't "that looks like English" or "that looks foreign". Their first reaction is, "Hey, that looks like Daba symbols". It is immediately recognizable as coming directly from their own culture and history.

And yes, out of all the projects we are doing, this is the one that is closest to my heart. We're doing a lot of things that are of significant benefit to the Mosuo, some of them quite arguably of more immediate concern. But 50 or 100 years later, most of the contributions we've made will be 'invisible'...but the written language will be an enduring legacy, something that myself and others will always be able to point at and say, "We helped to do that."

 

[Chris Haynes]

Okay, Wolfman... you are one cool dude!

If I am incoherent, please forgive me... I should have gone to bed two hours ago (after picking up a teenager from school ski trip), but I had to click on your intro, and then come here.

I have a few thoughts... The first being my introduction into reading science fiction was through the genre known as "speculative fiction", especially the writings of Ursula K. Le Guin. As it turns out her father was an anthropologist... and even though I used to think she was too, I feel that much of her writing is influence by a "what if this culture did this!" (by the way, I did not enjoy her book The Telling at all, even though I loved The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness). The idea of a "no-marriage" culture just excites my mind on to several of the themes her books bring up.

Then there is the language. I live in the Far West... I don't know which part of Canada you are from, but you may know of the program by both the USA and Canada to "civilize" the native tribes. One way to do that was to take the children away from their families and educate them in a sort of boarding school (something similar happened in Australia with children of aborigines fathered by white men that was the genesis of the movie The Rabbit Proof Fence). The native kids were punished for using their native language and taught to be "white"... or just generally abused:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/soulwound.html

What has happened in the last few decades where we live... and just north where my husband is from (British Columbia) there has been a scrambling to keep native languages alive. From http://www.ydli.org/fnlgsbc.htm in Canada to http://www.lushootseed.net/ where we live... to the Tlingit a way up north (by the way, some of tribes from the north tended to come down to gather slaves from other areas, so no culture is perfectly innocent).

Anyway... the is the only reason I ventured into the mine field known as "Politics" was by clicking on this link from your intro thread. It was certainly worth it. Thanks.

 

[Wolfman]

HC,

Actually, my father is an Anglican minister, and when I was growing up (in southern Ontario) one of his churches was on a reservation; so I grew up intimately familiar with the issues facing Canada's native peoples. While I lived in Canada, I was active in promoting awareness of native issues. I was quite young, and didn't really accomplish much, but to this day I consider our treatment of our native peoples one of the greatest black marks on our nation's history (but certainly not the only one). On the bright side, Canada's gov't is starting to take very positive steps to redress some of these issues, but there's still a long way to go.

There are actually several native tribes in Canada that used to have cultures somewhat similar to that of the Mosuo. They had matriarchal cultures, and although they had some practice of marriage, it was much looser than in many other groups. I've had anthropologists who study Canada's native peoples contact me to discuss some of these similarities.

Fortunately, these days, there does seem to be greater awareness and interest in not letting cultures like these die off. Unfortunately, in too many instances, "interest" does not translate into "financial support". And its hard to accomplish much without money.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Regarding the inadvertent result of 'luring' you into the Politics section, I was somewhat uncertain where to place this, as there are no sections specifically relating to culture. I was stuck between putting it in the Science section (from the aspect of anthropology) or lump it in with "Social Issues" here. I went with the latter because of the more subjective nature of the material, and also because from what I could see, more people participate in this forum (and I'm something of a sucker for attention ). I guess some of the subject matter would also fit in the Religion & Philosophy section also, come to think of it!

 

[Morrigan]

This thread is very interesting. I learned many things. I had never heard of those people before, and their culture and way of living are fascinating.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Wolfman]

I just received this email, from a woman who viewed my website.

Dear Mr. Lombard,

Once again the forces of patriarchal persecution rise up to take whatever power they can from women. Your website is a load of rubbish, just trying to deny the reality of the superiority of a female-run society.

The Mosuo culture dates back thousands of years, tracing back to connections with the Mayan and Egyptian civilizations, who also revered women until men took them over. In those cultures, there was no war, no rape, no murder. Not until men took power.

Your website and your organization are just another example of the inability of men to accept women who are more powerful than them. You'd prefer to see the world torn apart by violence, than accept that women can be leaders, too.

I am going to write to the Chinese government and request that your organization be shut down. You have let me know your name, and how to find you, so I will do everything I can to prevent you from perverting this pure culture.

Don't write back, I am wise to your lies and methods.

Now, this is by far the wackiest email I've ever received; the only thing I could do was laugh at it. At least the woman appears reasonably literate, but beyond that I have problems crediting her with any serious intelligence.

1) Everything on my website has been vetted and approved by the Mosuo, and by anthropologists studying the Mosuo (every one of whom, by the way, are female)

2) I have no idea where this thing about links to the Mayan and Egyptian civilizations comes from, I've never even heard a claim like this before. And there's absolutely nothing to support such a claim, or even make us suspect such a connection.

The rest...well, its just very obviously patent nonsense. But a good example of what I mentioned earlier regarding some of the more 'fringe' elements that tend to be attracted to study of the Mosuo. I rather suspect that if I bothered to engage her in further dialogue (which I won't), she'd start telling me a spirit guides and mystical revelations that have led her to her knowledge.

Anyway, this isn't intended to try to justify myself in the work I'm doing; just as a rather humorous interlude which, given the nature of this forum, I think a lot of people will appreciate.

 

[luchog]

And there is also the sense, the first time the Mosuo see this written form, that their reaction isn't "that looks like English" or "that looks foreign". Their first reaction is, "Hey, that looks like Daba symbols". It is immediately recognizable as coming directly from their own culture and history.

That sounds to me like the logically ideal way to go, both with the creation of the script, as well as education in the written language. Again, this is a truly remarkable project, and I find it absolutely fascinating.

 

[Smart_Cookie]

Wow, Wolfman - another fascinating thread.

I was intrigued reading about the Mosuo's language, and the steps being taken to preserve it.

I was heartened to read that most Mosuo are bilingual, and that their language is still being taught, and that there are still so many speakers of it.

In the other thread, I mentioned that I'm a status Indian here in Manitoba. Our local dialects are in a much more precarious position. My grandparents spoke michif, a pastiche of French and Cree. But in our extended family, it has not really survived. My grandmother spoke nothing but her language. While my mother spoke michif to my grandmother, she never taught it to my sister or myself, and she never spoke it at home. That's pretty common, I find - the language is not being passed down to most of the younger generations.

Thanks for sharing your info with us, Wolfman.

p.s. on the attached link, it tickles me to know that the woman trying to preserve our language is my second cousin. And Joseph Fagnan and Catherine Chartrand are also my great-grandparents.

 

[Morrigan]

I just received this email, from a woman who viewed my website.
*snip email*

Wow, I sure got a chuckle out of that. All I would reply to her is, "Good luck with that, sweetie." And the "sweetie" is just a nice touch, since it's so condescendingly patriarchal, it will surely throw her into a hissy fit of feminazi rage.

Though I'm at a loss as to what she accuses you of, exactly. Where did you imply inferiority of the Mosuo, where did you try to "patriarchize" their society, etc.? Oh well, just another loony.

 

[Lemastre]

Do any Mosuo migrate to the rest of the world, and if they do, how do they get along?

 

[Wolfman]

Do any Mosuo migrate to the rest of the world, and if they do, how do they get along?

Well, lots of younger Mosuo are 'migrating' to other parts of China, primarily in search of jobs. But outside of China, it is very limited.

There is one Mosuo woman who has achieved a fair degree of fame abroad, a woman by the name of Yang Erche Namu (you can do a Google search on her, there'll be plenty of results). Although she never became an A-list celebrity, she enjoyed (and continues to enjoy) more than her fair share of fame. Her story, told in the biography "Leaving Mother Lake" (which, by the way, is an excellent book which has won numerous awards, and been translated into at least seven languages), is an amazing one. She started out as an illiterate, uneducated girl herding goats in the Himalayas; and through sheer determination and force of personality, managed to get to Shanghai on her own, and there got herself admitted to a music school (she is an amazing singer, who had won several regional and national contests).

While in Shanghai, she met and married a foreign diplomat, who took her to Europe. When that relationship ended, she next went to the U.S., where she gained work as a model (and was one of the first Asian women to have a cover on Vogue magazine). She also went through an impressive list of boyfriends/lovers.

She eventually returned to China, and now works in the fashion industry, hosting fashion shows and writing for fashion magazines; and also engaging in work to encourage tourism to Lugu Lake, and make more people aware of the Mosuo (in fact, the majority of tourism at Lugu Lake could be attributed to Namu). In China, her name is quite well known, and she is in many ways the "face" of Mosuo people.

Which is, sadly, very unfortunate. Because for all that she's a very remarkable woman, she does not really represent the Mosuo people at all. The way she thinks/acts/talks is very, very different from the average Mosuo person, and this has caused some animosity from the Mosuo community. While they appreciate the increased awareness of their culture, they dislike the image of the Mosuo that most people are getting from Namu.

Namu and I are good friends, and I respect her phenomenally as an individual; she's an incredibly strong and determined woman. But she is not 'typical' Mosuo in any sense of the term. And her exposure to the fashion industry and celebrity has left her more than a little arrogant.

I am only familiar personally with one other Mosuo who has gone abroad; she is a very close friend of mine, a Mosuo woman who was the first (and as far as I am aware only) Mosuo to study in an American university. She got support from Rotary International to do a master's degree in education administration, and has now returned to the Lugu Lake region to focus on educational issues affecting the Mosuo (she is also one of the chief leaders in our organization).

One further thing I'd like to comment on regarding the Mosuo. I've met quite a few Mosuo who left their homes for the 'outside' world, and quite a number of them did quite well. But they always, always ended up returning home. The people I've met are certainly capable of achieving material success in other cities/countries, but their ties to their homes and their families are extremely strong. Probably the biggest problem they face in adjusting to living elsewhere is not so much the cultural adjustment, as it is simply adjusting to being on their own, without family support or structure.

Namu is a very good friend of mine.

 

[Wolfman]

A few pictures of the Mosuo, and of Lugu Lake:

 

[SimonD]

Wolfman,

Another amazing thread. You certainly know your stuff and it is a pleasure to read your well informed posts.

Just a couple of questions

- do you have trouble with Christains trying to stop they way of life and trying to enforce their beliefs as far as single partners are concerned?
- is there any jealous disputes between partners?

 

[tkingdoll]

Fascinating.

At what age do they become sexually active, on average? And, do the women usually take partners within their own generation?

Sorry if you already covered these questions and I missed them, it's 3am

 

[Wolfman]

Wolfman,

Another amazing thread. You certainly know your stuff and it is a pleasure to read your well informed posts.

Just a couple of questions

- do you have trouble with Christains trying to stop they way of life and trying to enforce their beliefs as far as single partners are concerned?
- is there any jealous disputes between partners?

There is some missionary activity there; however, as this is illegal under Chinese gov't law, and the area is so remote and difficult to live in any way, not that much. Beyond that, the Mosuo have proven rather resistant to attempts to change/destroy their culture. My parents actually work for a missionary training organization (how's that for irony, eh?), and I once checked one of their books on evangelization efforts around the world. It said that missionaries have been working with the Mosuo for abou 10 years, and in that time only one family has converted.

I'd like to point out, however, that the most serious threats to their culture have come from the Chinese government. For quite some time, the government made their religion illegal, and forbade the training of younger priests. This didn't just affect their religion; since the Mosuo have no written form of their language, their entire historical/cultural heritage is handed down orally from priest to priest by rote memorization. With the lack of younger priests to learn this oral history, much has been lost. The government also tried for awhile to outlaw their 'walking marriage' system...but that was singularly unsuccessful. (Today, laws stopping their religion and walking marriages have been removed)

Fascinating.

At what age do they become sexually active, on average? And, do the women usually take partners within their own generation?

Sorry if you already covered these questions and I missed them, it's 3am

This question actually leads to another fascinating aspect of Mosuo culture. Among the Mosuo, a child is not considered a full "human" until they reach a certain age (roughly corresponding to puberty). They believe that before a child reaches this age, they do not have a soul. Therefore, children are all dressed the same (no differentiation between male and female clothing), and children are not allowed to engage in any religious activities (this includes things as simple as serving food, which must first be offered to the household gods). Also, a funeral for a child is very simple, with little ritual, as compared to that of an adult, who had a soul.

Anthropologists theorize that this likely evolved as a defense mechanism against high infant mortality rates; it is psychologically easier to handle the death of your children if you consider that they didn't have souls and weren't 'real' humans. Also, I believe I mentioned earlier that the Mosuo seek to maintain household ratios of males and females...so if one family has too many males, and another too many females, they may simple swap children.

While there are some advantages to this system, it can lead to neglect and abuse of children. Not so much physical abuse (although the Mosuo definitely believe in the value of a good spanking), but more in the way of neglect. Children may sometimes be treated more the way you'd treat a pet. It is hard to describe this, in fact it is something I cannot fully understand (or describe) myself.

Anyway, when children reach a certain age (usually around 12-14 years old), they will go through a special ceremony where the girls get their skirts, and the guys get their pants. It is at this point that they are considered to be fully 'human', and to have received a soul.

It is also at this point that they are able to begin to engage in sexual activities (before this age, girls sleep in a communal area with everyone else; after this age, they can have their own bedroom, into which they can invite partners). However, from what I've been able to gather, actual sexual activity at this age is relatively rare, and more likely to consist of two young teenagers playing doctor with each other than in actual intercourse.

From our perspective, obviously, there would be potential for sexual abuse in such a system; however, from what I've been able to gather (and based on research by other female anthropologists who are significantly more knowledgeable than myself), this actually seems to be quite minimal. In fact, rates of sexual abuse and rape seem to be much lower among the Mosuo than most other cultures. Very likely, this is in large part due to having a matriarchal culture where women are the main authorities...they are much less likely to turn a blind eye to sexual abuse, or to try to rationalize it, and women are in general held in much higher respect.

As a side note, among the Mosuo, if a man does rape a woman, the penalty is death.

Regarding jealousy, certainly the Mosuo still have jealousy, lovers' quarrels, etc. They have the same feelings that everyone else does. But from what I've seen, it is somewhat different. Of course, if one man loves a woman, but she chooses another man, he'll feel jealous, sad, angry, etc.

But the Mosuo grow up without ever having any expectation of finding a 'true love' and of spending their life with that person. They view romantic love as something that is fleeting and unpredictable, that may last only a few days, or may last for decades. So it is in general far less traumatic when couples split up, and much of the anger/hatred that accompanies such splits in western culture is considerably diluted among the Mosuo.

I try my best to present a balanced picture -- there are many fascinating aspects of Mosuo culture, and certainly some aspects that I think are quite positive, and from which other cultures could learn. However, they do also have problems and abuses, just as every culture does, so I try to keep that balance.

However, for myself, I have to say that one of the things that most impresses me about the Mosuo culture is that it is exceedingly rare to see a couple who are unhappy together, who don't like each other. There are some Mosuo relationships that last only a few days or weeks; others that last years or decades. But they are almost always together because they want to be together; not out of a sense of obligation to children (which is largely irrelevant with the children raised only by the mother), not out of a sense of obligation to a marriage contract, etc. If they are no longer happy together, they will simply separate, with relatively little muss or fuss.

 

[Aoidoi]

As a side note, among the Mosuo, if a man does rape a woman, the penalty is death.

What's their judicial system like? Are there trials of some sort? Or is it more of a tribal "everybody knows what you did and the family is gonna cut off your head" sort of situation?

 

[Wolfman]

What's their judicial system like? Are there trials of some sort? Or is it more of a tribal "everybody knows what you did and the family is gonna cut off your head" sort of situation?

Well, of course, "officially" the judicial system would be the Communist system, with people arrested by the police, tried in the courts, etc.

However, unofficially, they tend to take care of things themselves. I was actually witness to such an event, when I had money stolen from me while I was visiting (theft is another huge taboo in the Mosuo culture). The family that I stayed with (who were responsible for me during my stay, and thus suffered a tremendous loss of face when something was stolen from me) organized what was essentially a lynch mob, about 30 people armed with knives and cleavers, who proceeded to tear through every house in the village until they found the money, and the person who had stolen it. That person was then dragged through the streets, kicked at and spit on by everyone, until he was placed at my feet, where he was forced to 'kowtow' to me.

Now, I was incredibly uncomfortable/upset with this, to me the amount of money that had been stolen was not that much (although for them it was a lot) and this man was literally being beaten and humiliated in front of me.

The next things that happened was that all the matriarchs (the oldest woman in each family) from the village walked forward, spit on the man, and cursed him. It was then their responsibility to proclaim judgment, what punishment he should face. I knew from the mutterings in the crowd that there was a strong push to slit this guy's throat -- I don't think I would have been able to handle the knowledge that a man had been killed because he stole a little money from me. But I was then asked, as the victim, what I wanted done.

I knew that the major issue was "face". Not only had the family I lived with lost face, but the entire village felt that the Mosuo people as a whole had lost face, that I would now have an impression of them as a dishonest, thieving culture whom I would never trust. The only way for them to demonstrate this was not true was to take extreme action, such as executing the thief, to demonstrate their own sincerity.

So I gave a little speech in which I told them that their actions demonstrated to me absolutely that this theft was the action of one man, not of the Mosuo as a whole; and that I could clearly see that the Mosuo were a very sincere, honest, and trustworthy people, that they had nothing else to prove to me. I then added that the man who had committed the theft had already been more than adequately humiliated and punished. Then I stated that, as of that moment, I considered all the Mosuo gathered there as my friends...but that if this man was further injured, or killed, then I would no longer consider them my friends.

As a result of my words, the man was released (with a fair degree of spitting and kicking at him), the judgment from the matriarchs was to respect my wishes.

This was by far the most uncomfortable experience I ever had with the Mosuo, one for which I blamed myself more than a little (I'd been careless with my money to begin with, which was stupid). But ironically, it proved to be one of the key moments in establishing a real trust and relationship with the Mosuo. Before that moment, they'd been very warm and friendly, but still treated me as an outsider. After that, I was more a part of the community -- we'd all been through a crisis together, and both sides had been able to demonstrate their friendship and sincerity.

So, technically, one could call this a somewhat "democratic" system of justice, in that a council of village leaders (the matriarchs) will determine punishment together. But it also can be very emotional, driven by a mob mentality, and with little or no need to demonstrate actual proof of a crime (although in my situation, the guilt was self-evident).

 

[Wolfman]

A further note here, something I just learned on my last trip to visit the Mosuo; one of the earlier topics was related to coming of age, and during this trip I found out much more of the mythology and culture surrounding that.

According to Mosuo mythology, humans were originally given only 14 years to life; while dogs were given 65. The humans were unhappy with this state of affairs, and complained to the gods, but nothing could be done. However, the dog, being the loyal friend that he is, went to the gods and told them that he would sacrifice 50 years, and give it to the humans instead.

This explains why humans live around 65 years, while dogs live around 15 years. But more than that, it actually has a fundamental impact of Mosuo views of their lives, and their souls.

Basically, they view themselves as having two lives; the first is 14 years, and then when that period is finished, they begin the second life, that which was gifted to them by dogs. It is also at this point that a child receives a soul and becomes "human". (I do not at all understand why they aren't considered "human" until they've received the dog's added years, will have to pursue that more in future).

For this reason, also, dogs are very much revered in the Mosuo culture. Pretty well every home will have dogs, and the idea of eating dog is abhorrent to them (one of their historical terms for Han Chinese was the derogatory "dog eaters").

 

[Morrigan]

Very interesting.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Bump... so this fascinating thread attracts more notice...

... also to repost the link: http://www.mosuoproject.org/

... also to subscribe to this thread.

Wolfman, is it terribly wrong of me to feel a little bit proud of you because I invited you to this forum? I'm glad I did because your work has been seen by people who have asked intelligent questions - not that I had anything to do with that, of course.

Does your organisation need money, and if so, what would contributions be used for?