A world without marriage

[pgwenthold]

Have they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior?

 

[Wolfman]

Have they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior?

Ummm...don't really have a clue what to make of that. But will clarify that one of our organization's most basic principles is that nobody working with us is allowed to engage in religious proseletyzation. People working with our organization are expected to come in with a respect for Mosuo beliefs, not to impose their beliefs on them.

And on the topic of religion, the Mosuo actually have two religions: they have their own native religion called Daba, which is an animistic, ancestor worship type of religion; and they have Tibetan Buddhism (an interesting bit of trivia, one of the designated "living buddhas" recognized by the Tibetan religious leaders is a Mosuo man).

On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism plays a much greater role in their lives. Buddhist monks walk the streets, there are monasteries for teaching and housing monks, prayer flags wave from the branches of every tree, old women walk the streets spinning prayer wheels, etc.

Daba is practiced on a more ritual basis...for births, deaths, naming ceremonies, sickness, etc., the Daba priest will be called in to perform the relevant ceremonies.

 

[Wolfman]

I want to talk also about what is, to me, one of our most exciting (and challenging) projects. The Mosuo have their own language, but it is a purely oral language, with no written form. Their entire history/culture/tradition is preserved in the form of oral tradition, passed down from generation to generation.

Typically, it is learned by the Daba priests, who are expected to go through a lengthy (ie. decades) apprenticeship, learning by rote all the information that comprises their oral history and tradition. However, when the Communists took over in China, they made all religions illegal, and any Daba priests who tried to pass their knowledge on to the next generation were punished and imprisoned. The result is that today there are only about 15-20 Daba priests left, most of whom are very elderly. As each one dies, a huge portion of Mosuo history, culture, and tradition dies with them. (A note, the Daba religion is no longer illegal)

In addition, under modern Chinese law, students from Chinese minorities have the right to have a certain portion of their education done in their native language...but without a written language, it is impossible to create textbooks (and without textbooks, the gov't cannot authorize the curriculum, so nothing can be taught).

For this reason, we are bringing in linguists to analyze the Mosuo language, break it down into its component phonemes, and then develop a written system, which will then be taught to the Mosuo. I think, out of everything we are doing, this is the project that is closest to my heart. I try to keep from letting ego have too much of a role in what I do, but I have to say that it is very much a dream of mine that in 20 years or so, I'll be able to go to Mosuo schools and see Mosuo children reading and writing in their own language, and be able to know that I had something to do with that.

 

[pgwenthold]

Ummm...don't really have a clue what to make of that. But will clarify that one of our organization's most basic principles is that nobody working with us is allowed to engage in religious proseletyzation. People working with our organization are expected to come in with a respect for Mosuo beliefs, not to impose their beliefs on them.

And on the topic of religion, the Mosuo actually have two religions: they have their own native religion called Daba, which is an animistic, ancestor worship type of religion; and they have Tibetan Buddhism (an interesting bit of trivia, one of the designated "living buddhas" recognized by the Tibetan religious leaders is a Mosuo man).

On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism plays a much greater role in their lives. Buddhist monks walk the streets, there are monasteries for teaching and housing monks, prayer flags wave from the branches of every tree, old women walk the streets spinning prayer wheels, etc.

Daba is practiced on a more ritual basis...for births, deaths, naming ceremonies, sickness, etc., the Daba priest will be called in to perform the relevant ceremonies.

My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek (I knew very well they weren't christian), but your response is exactly what I was hoping to hear. I was curious about their religion.

 

[drkitten]

For this reason, we are bringing in linguists to analyze the Mosuo language, break it down into its component phonemes, and then develop a written system, which will then be taught to the Mosuo. I think, out of everything we are doing, this is the project that is closest to my heart.

When you say "we" are doing this, who is "we"? In particular, have you hooked up with the various groups like the LSA and the Endangered Languages Foundation?

There's a lot -- well, by linguistics standards, a lot -- of money floating around for doing exactly this, and it sounds like Mosuo is one language that might be saveable if you can bring it to the attention of the appropriate professionals. So depending upon who the linguists you are bringing in are, it may be possible/practical to get some real heavyweights to come in for their support....

 

[pgwenthold]

When you say "we" are doing this, who is "we"? ..

I'm guessing it is the NPO:

"Two years ago, I established a non-profit organization to work with the Mosuo, focusing on a variety of aspects (education, development, etc.), but also on promoting awareness of their culture, and to trying to preserve it."

 

[supercorgi]

Wolfman, sounds like you're doing some amazing work! The Mosuo sound like a fascinating people. Matrilineal systems are indeed rather rare. I think there used to be ( ) some in Polynesia. I don't know if property was owned by females but it was transferred through the female line (a man's heirs would be his sister's children). I think some of the Native American tribes in the U.S. plains were also matrilineal.

 

[Wolfman]

When you say "we" are doing this, who is "we"? In particular, have you hooked up with the various groups like the LSA and the Endangered Languages Foundation?

There's a lot -- well, by linguistics standards, a lot -- of money floating around for doing exactly this, and it sounds like Mosuo is one language that might be saveable if you can bring it to the attention of the appropriate professionals. So depending upon who the linguists you are bringing in are, it may be possible/practical to get some real heavyweights to come in for their support....

The Endangered Languages Foundation won't work with us because, at present, the number of language speakers is still too large (around 30,000) to qualify for their work.

In truth, this project is still in its infancy; I am contacting linguists with experience in this field, who also have suitable 'sensitivity' to the political situation (ie. they won't end up writing huge papers critical of the Chinese government that force the gov't to shut our organization down). This is not a field in which I personally have a lot of experience/knowledge, so am really relying on these experts to help us with making those crucial connections.

So, to answer your question, "we" in specific terms is our organization; but in general terms, "we" is anyone who is interested to get involved and help.

One more point of interest I forgot to mention; the form the written language will take. We had a number of options in this regard:

* Use a phonetic version, similar to the English alphabet. Advantages – facilitates outsiders learning the Mosuo language; and familiarizes Mosuo children with the alphabet, facilitating their ability to learn English. Disadvantages – it looks and feels “foreign”, has no direct link to Mosuo culture or history, and may face greater difficulty being officially adopted by the Chinese government.


* Use symbols similar to “Dongba” script, the written form used by the Naxi minority. Advantages – the Mosuo are fairly familiar with Dongba, and have used it in the past for trade and communication with the Naxi. Disadvantages – the Mosuo strongly dislike being categorized as part of the Naxi minority, and have expressed a strong desire not to use Dongba.


* Use a modified form of Tibetan script. Advantages – Being Tibetan Buddist, many Mosuo are at least somewhat familiar with Tibetan script, and it is perceived as more a part of their own culture. Disadvantages – can lead to confusion of identity between Mosuo and Tibetan.


* Use some form of Chinese writing. Advantages – the Chinese government would like it, and it could provide mutual reinforcement of both Chinese and Mosuo written languages. Disadvantages – every linguist we have spoken with have said that using Chinese characters for the Mosuo language would be extremely problematic, as Chinese is a syllabic language, but Mosuo is not. In addition, most Mosuo have stated they don't want a Chinese form.


* Adapt Daba symbols. Although the Mosuo have no written form of their language, their religion, Daba, does have a variety of religious symbols. These symbols do not represent an alphabet or language (it would be similar to they symbol of the cross, or the fish, or the dove, in Christianity). However, we could adapt these symbols to have each symbol represent one sound in the Mosuo language. Advantages – it provides a written form that is derived directly from the Mosuo culture, and is immediately recognizable to the Mosuo. It also encourages preservation of a unique part of their culture. Disadvantages – it means designing an entirely new written form, including having to develop Unicode versions for computer use.
Following the principles of our organization, this decision was not made by any non-Mosuo. Rather, we presented the list of possible options to the Mosuo, explaining the relative advantages and disadvantages of each choice. The overwhelmingly popular choice was to adapt Daba symbols as the written form. Therefore, this is the course we are pursuing.


In order to alleviate some of the potential problems (that is, for non-native speakers to also learn the language) in using Daba symbols, we will also be developing a phonetic version of the language. In Chinese, this is already done; as young children, Chinese students will learn Pinyin, an alphabetic form of their language. Then later, they will learn the more complicated Chinese characters. We plan to do something similar. This will have the particular advantage of facilitating outsiders in learning the Mosuo language.

 

[Roswell-Perseis]

As a sociology major I added your site to my favorites. Thank you!!!

 

[Kaylee]

Wolfman. You rock.

Wow. What Bluess said.

Wolfman, did you write this part of the Wikipedia article on the Mosuo?

Generally, the Mosuo uses the Han script for daily communication. The Tibetan script is mainly used for religious purposes.

Just wondering if the the Hans script is similar to the Dongba script you mentioned in one of your posts (#28)?

I also think it would be very interesting to add a .jpeg file showing the Daba symbols to both your web site and the Wiki article.

Also am curious if you wrote or agree with this part of the Wiki article?

There is also a very important historical component which is often unknown to (or ignored by) those studying the Mosuo. Historically, the Mosuo actually had a feudal system in which a small "nobility" controlled a larger "peasant" population. The Mosuo nobility practiced a more ‘traditional' patriarchal system, which encouraged marriage (usually within the ‘nobility'), and in which men were the head of the house.

It has been theorized that the "matriarchal" system of the lower classes may have been enforced (or at least encouraged) by the higher classes as a way of preventing threats to their own power. Since leadership was hereditary, and determined through the male family line, it virtually eliminated potential threats to leadership by having the peasant class trace their lineage through the female line. Therefore, attempts to depict the Mosuo culture as some sort of idealized "matriarchal" culture in which women have all the rights, and where everyone has much more freedom, are often based on lack of knowledge of this history; the truth is that for much of their history, the Mosuo ‘peasant' class were subjugated and sometimes treated as little better than slaves.

The truth is, as in most situations, both more complicated, and more fascinating. There is a very viable argument to be made that the "matriarchal" system of the Mosuo was actually enforced to keep them in servitude to the ruling Mosuo class. Yet, practically speaking, this system has led to a number of unusual traits within Mosuo society. Mosuo families have an incredible internal cohesiveness and stability; and certainly, Mosuo women do not (within their culture) face many of the struggles and barriers that women in many other cultures do.

It does seem to have the ring of truth to it, and helps make it more understandable how a society developed where men had very loose ties, if any, to their children.

 

[SezMe]

Some questions off the top of my head. Do they have an STD problem? Where did the word "Daba" come from? To what extent has their culture already been impacted by the "outer" world. Do they already have computers there? Do they trade with China or other regions? If so, what?

TIA.

 

[Wolfman]

Wow. What Bluess said.

Wolfman, did you write this part of the Wikipedia article on the Mosuo?

Virtually the entire Wikipedia article was written by me, yes...and is mostly copied from the more extensive information on our website.

Just wondering if the the Hans script is similar to the Dongba script you mentioned in one of your posts (#28)?

I also think it would be very interesting to add a .jpeg file showing the Daba symbols to both your web site and the Wiki article.

"Han script" is actually just normal Chinese writing. Dongba is more pictographic, and would resemble hieroglyphics more than Chinese writing. And yes, am working on adding a lot more content to the site, including pics of the Daba symbols.

Also am curious if you wrote or agree with this part of the Wiki article?

There is also a very important historical component which is often unknown to (or ignored by) those studying the Mosuo. Historically, the Mosuo actually had a feudal system in which a small "nobility" controlled a larger "peasant" population. The Mosuo nobility practiced a more ‘traditional' patriarchal system, which encouraged marriage (usually within the ‘nobility'), and in which men were the head of the house.

It has been theorized that the "matriarchal" system of the lower classes may have been enforced (or at least encouraged) by the higher classes as a way of preventing threats to their own power. Since leadership was hereditary, and determined through the male family line, it virtually eliminated potential threats to leadership by having the peasant class trace their lineage through the female line. Therefore, attempts to depict the Mosuo culture as some sort of idealized "matriarchal" culture in which women have all the rights, and where everyone has much more freedom, are often based on lack of knowledge of this history; the truth is that for much of their history, the Mosuo ‘peasant' class were subjugated and sometimes treated as little better than slaves.

The truth is, as in most situations, both more complicated, and more fascinating. There is a very viable argument to be made that the "matriarchal" system of the Mosuo was actually enforced to keep them in servitude to the ruling Mosuo class. Yet, practically speaking, this system has led to a number of unusual traits within Mosuo society. Mosuo families have an incredible internal cohesiveness and stability; and certainly, Mosuo women do not (within their culture) face many of the struggles and barriers that women in many other cultures do.

It does seem to have the ring of truth to it, and helps make it more understandable how a society developed where men had very loose ties, if any, to their children.

Yup...as I said above, I wrote most of the content there; all content was not only written by me, but checked and approved by both Mosuo leaders and anthropological researchers. So I'd consider its veracity to be fairly reliable.

Do they have an STD problem?

Ah, there's a MAJOR potential problem. Historically, no, STDs do not seem to have been a significant problem. However, these days, huge numbers of Mosuo girls are being lured away to work as prostitutes in larger cities (one potentially negative aspect of Mosuo culture is that since they consider it normal to have multiple sexual partners, and have no expectation of virginity or monogamy, Mosuo girls tend to be more easily lured into prostitution, particularly when they see no other way to make money).

At present, there is no reliable data regarding STDs among the Mosuo; and conducting studies is difficult because the Chinese gov't is wary of outsiders getting such information, then using it to criticize gov't policies. We are attempting to work with several China-based health organizations that can help us in this area.

However, it doesn't take a genius to see the potential for huge danger. Mosuo girl goes off and works as a prostitute for a few years. She gets an STD, but isn't aware of it. She returns home. She has multiple sexual partners, who in turn have multiple partners of their own. Within a relatively short time, an STD could sweep through an entire community.

There is another aspect to this...the Mosuo are generally considered "primitive" and "uncivilized" by the Han Chinese, a description that the Mosuo obviously dislike. They are therefore loath to have a perception that their traditional culture of walking marriages could actually be responsible for the rapid spread of dangerous diseases...that would only 'confirm' Chinese opinions about their culture. So it is a very sensitive matter to even get their willing cooperation in such a venture.

Where did the word "Daba" come from?

That's a romanized version of the word they use in their own language; I don't know what the specific roots are.

To what extent has their culture already been impacted by the "outer" world. Do they already have computers there? Do they trade with China or other regions? If so, what?

That really is hard to answer, because it varies depending on which communities you talk about.

The main Mosuo community that everyone knows about is on the edge of Lugu Lake, a gorgeous lake high in the Himalayas that straddles Sichuan and Yunnan provinces. This is a major tourist center, and as such has become a typical tourist trap. Almost nothing here represents 'real Mosuo culture', but is rather a charicature of Mosuo culture, exaggerating some aspects, ignoring others, and generally presented by Chinese tour guides who really don't understand the culture at all. In this area, the impact has been huge.

There are communities close to Lugu Lake that are trying to cash in on Lugu Lake's popularity (and ability to make money) by developing small tourist industries themselves, mostly modeled on the system at Lugu Lake. In this case, there's been some negative impact, but not so much, and much of their daily life is still very 'typical' Mosuo culture.

In the first two instances, the Mosuo involved have electricity, and therefore access to TV (few have computers), so they've also seen more of the 'outside' world, and been influenced to a greater or lesser degree by that. But in the third category, we have lots of remote, tiny villages scattered throughout the mountains. Most of these don't even have electricity, and have very limited contact with the outside world. In these cases, their life today still goes on much as it has for hundreds of years. They are aware of the outside world as a general concept, but have little understanding of it, and are not very influenced by it.

Computers are a major issue for our organization. Obviously, in communities that don't even have electricity, computers are a bit problematic. But even in communities that do have electricity, computers are often too expensive for most Mosuo (consider that even a cheap computer would represent several years' salary for the average Mosuo).

However, for students in China to gain admission to senior high school or college/university, they must pass standard entrance examinations that include tests of their computer skills. Its pretty damn difficult to pass a computer examination if you come from a village that doesn't even have electricity.

Education is an entirely different subject, which perhaps I'll tackle a little later on.

 

[Wolfman]

oops...sorry...accidentally posted when I intended to edit! n/a

 

[Skeptic]

For more information about the Mosuo, their culture, and our work with them, you can check out our organization's website

You win the "coolest life" award on this forum, that's for damn sure.

Very, very interesting.

 

[Wolfman]

First, would like to thank everyone for your compliments and kind words!

Second, I'd really like to express my gratitude...I've made posts about the Mosuo, their culture, and our work with them on a number of other online forums, and aside from quick "gee, that sounds nice" responses, got very little feedback, and very little interest in learning more about the Mosuo.

Here' I've got people who are reading everything I'm writing (and, by this point, its a LOT of stuff!), and coming back with intelligent questions and requests for more information. For a guy like me (who often feels like he's operating in a vacuum), that means a lot.

So...thanks!!

 

[sphenisc]

And while the Mosuo are quite loose in regards to relationships, they would have problems with a guy who did a mother and daughter in the same family

Are there incest taboos? How are they 'policed' if paternity is not regarded as significant? Great OP BTW!

 

[Wolfman]

Are there incest taboos? How are they 'policed' if paternity is not regarded as significant? Great OP BTW!

Thanks!

Yes, there are incest taboos, but it is 'policed' in a very interesting way. The matriarch of the family will keep track of the different relationships, and warn their children against potentially incestuous relationships. An example:

Let's say a woman has had two partners at around the time she gets pregnant. She doesn't know for sure which is the father. She'll inform her mother about both men. When those children are older, and start to date, the matriarch will then warn them away from relations with children who come from either of those two men's families.

Its not the most scientific of methods, but it seems to work.

Oh...and sexual relations between members of the same family are most definitely taboo.

 

[Wolfman]

Was just thinking about the Mosuo attitude towards same-sex relationships. This is something I don't really have extensive info on (its not a question you tend to ask people casually), but have talked with a few closer Mosuo friends about it. Their responses are interesting.

They seem to feel no particular revulsion at the idea (which is certainly very different from the vast majority of Chinese), it isn't something that they consider sick or disgusting. They just seem to feel that it doesn't happen (or very, very rarely). If I ask them a question like, "If you knew that guy was having sex with another man, what would your reaction be?", they'll respond with something like, "Well, I guess that'd be up to him, its his choice, but I don't know anyone who actually does that".

I find these reactions interesting because there seems to be no implicit societal taboo that would prevent homosexual relationships, yet such relationships either do not exist among the Mosuo, or else are kept secret despite not being particularly taboo.

However, in truth, I've only talked to four Mosuo about this, so it is hardly authoritative, and I have not yet met any anthropologists who've done any real work in this area either.

On the lighter side of this topic -- because of the whole matriarchal, no marriage thing, the Mosuo attract a significant number of feminist and/or lesbian visitors. Now please understand, I have no problems with either feminism or lesbians...but there are always, within any given group, a certain number of extremists and crackpots, and Lugu Lake seems to attract more than its share. These are women who go there not so much with an interest in sincerely understanding the Mosuo, as they are in squeezing the Mosuo into whatever predetermined agenda they've already decided on.

When I first started setting up this organization, and was looking to see what info was available online, I stumbled onto a website of an American woman -- a proud feminist and lesbian -- who, after spending a grand total of two days among the Mosuo, went back home to write about her experiences. According to her, Mosuo women are almost entirely lesbians, sharing their bedrooms at night and keeping men cooped up in common sleeping quarters like cattle; men were only invited into their rooms when they decided they wanted to have a baby. It is a kind of Chinese version of the Amazon myth.

What blew me away was just how little anything she wrote even remotely resembled the actual Mosuo culture; yet I knew there were people reading this who would inevitably end up believing it.

This is one of the main reasons why, for myself, I insist that anything that goes on our website, or our public materials, is vetted by numerous Mosuo, and by knowledgeable anthropologists, to try to ensure that it is not just a case of me transferring my own subconscious expectations on to them, but rather is as accurate and truthful a representation of the Mosuo culture as possible (and whatever mistakes do inevitably creep in are purely my fault, but I am confident they'll be corrected in a timely fashion by others in our organization).

 

[Kaylee]

Virtually the entire Wikipedia article was written by me, yes...and is mostly copied from the more extensive information on our website.

"Han script" is actually just normal Chinese writing. Dongba is more pictographic, and would resemble hieroglyphics more than Chinese writing. And yes, am working on adding a lot more content to the site, including pics of the Daba symbols.
Yup...as I said above, I wrote most of the content there; all content was not only written by me, but checked and approved by both Mosuo leaders and anthropological researchers. So I'd consider its veracity to be fairly reliable.

Yes, I thought you wrote both. Again -- great job, its very informative and easy to read. I was just trying to understand why they can't continue to use Hans script?

Also I was wondering -- how does the Chinese policy of "one family, one child" apply to the Mouso?

 

[Skeptic]

In most cultures, a man will be responsible to care for his own children; in Mosuo culture, a man is responsible to care for the children of his sisters/nieces/aunts/etc. So Mosuo men still have full parenting responsibilities...perhaps even moreso, since they may end up sharing responsibility for the children of many family members.

Very interesting. What this shows, I think, is that while there is no marriage, there is also no illegitimacy--that is, most children (a) know who their fathers are (and the fathers do not deny it, even if they have no role in caring for them) and (b) have two male and female adults (mother and her brother) take care of them.

Also, it's easy to see why this social arrangement will discourage promiscuity. In general, most men will be responsible for raising, roughly, the same number of children as they have, even if they don't raise their own children.

However, if you are a man who has too many partners--or, more important, too many children--you are probably seen as a freeloader: someone who makes society take care of their many children while only caring for a few of society's children in return.

Am I correct here? You're the expert, I'm just making an educated(?) guess.