A thread in response to the UN Rape allegations thread

a_unique_person said:
That makes me a David Irving? That's all you need to make repeated 'mask slip' allegations.

Those were the examples of how bias clouds reason that came to me off the top of my head. I take it for granted that people who are prejudiced see their own prejudices differently than others do.

Cheer up though. The Fool and Demon stand behind you. Even the damned have friends.
 
Mycroft said:
Those were the examples of how bias clouds reason that came to me off the top of my head. I take it for granted that people who are prejudiced see their own prejudices differently than others do.

Cheer up though. The Fool and Demon stand behind you. Even the damned have friends.

I take it then, that all allegations of extremist anti semitism will be retratcted and I will recieve a full apology.
 
a_unique_person said:
I take it then, that all allegations of extremist anti semitism will be retratcted and I will recieve a full apology.

Not by me. Did you read something in something I said that wasn't there?
 
You just don't get it. I don't think the post is at all true, all I did was use your logic.

No, AUP. I do get it. As I explained above, you did NOT use my logic: criticizing the UN is NOT the same as a blood libel against the jews; the reporter I quoted is NOT a hack; the news story you used--a man involved in a sex scandal--is NOT the same as the establishment of quasi-official pedophile rings under UN cooperation.

Of course, as I said, you will CLAIM that it's just a "satire", or "suing my own logic", etc., but that's just the excuse. In reality, it was your excuse for repeating the ancient blood libel while then saying, "just joking".

And, once again, you accuse me of being an anti-semite like David Irving.

Yup. You are.

Despite my repeated requests that this libel is not made of me, because there is no basis for it whatsoever,

Oh, I dunno. You are on record, for instance, saying that the Arabs were justified in attacking israel (with the explicit intent to butcher all the jews) in 1948. You called two-year-old victims of suicide bombings "extremists" for the sole reason they were orthodox jews. You claimed "zionists" (read: jews) control and influence the US media, a rather obvious re-stating of the age-old "the jews control the newspapers" libel, blaming the same people for the same "crime", only with a slight change in the label. Whenever you mention israel, you call it either "Palestine" or "israel/Palestine"--the same thing as, oh, always referring to (say) Australia as "Australia/occupiedaboriginalterritory".

In general, you excuse and "understand" every outrage and attack on the jewish state, and consider it--alone of all the nations in the world--illegitimate. And now, you topped it all off with a crude, disgusting "satire" which--by golly, what a coincidence--choose to "satirize" by repeating an age-old antisemitic libel.

Finally, and above all, you are obsessed, indeed almost monomaniacal, with the whole subject. I am an israeli and a jew; naturally I am interested in the subject. But you are an Austrlian, never been to the middle east, have little if anything to do with anybody there. Are we really supposed to believe that your incessant, unending criticism of israel--without showing anything remotely like the same level of concern or criticism to nations which are far, far worse--is out of some sort of objective love of "human rights"?

This is not having "no basis whatsoever" for accusations of antisemitism, AUP. Rather, this is the behavior of a man who would LOVE to rant against the dirty jews directly, but knows that those who do so are not usualy invited back to dinner. So, instead, you use rather obvious euphemisms in your monomanical attacks on them. But it isn't convincing, not for a second.

you call up some strange psychic powers that allow you to discern what I am really thinking.

You remind me of the old jewish joke:

--"He wanted to punch me in the face."
--"How can you be sure?"
--"Well, if he hadn't WANTED to, he wouldn't have done it, would he?"

You are acting all surprised, as if figuring out what people think from what they write, say, or do is some sort of mysterious psychic power. It is no more "psychic" to figure out you hate jews from what you write than it is to figure out you don't like me from that succint, two words, "f--k you" post you recently wrote in reply to me (or was it Mycroft's?) posts.

This 'mask fell' is a libel, and I have raised merry hell every time you have made it,

Of course you did. And captain whatshisname was shocked--SHOCKED!--to find out there was gambling going on at Rick's, too. But that's hardly a reason to accept either your or his claims at face value, now is it?

and you just keep making it.

Yup. Because it's true. Your "raising merry hell" in denial is, simply put, no concern of mine whatever.

And every time you make it, it damn well hurts.

Awwwwwww.

So when are you going to stop.

I don't think I shall, actually. And, if it hurts so much, perhaps altering your behavior--apologizing for saying that the Arabs were "justified"in in trying to kill my family in 1948, for instance--might be in order.

I am not like David Irving,

Yes, you are. In particular, like David Irving, you are the master of insinuation. Only rarely does Irving openly say "the holocaust never happened", or openly identify the "traditional enemies of truth" as "the jews", what he obviously means. It is just sheer "objectivity" and "moral indignation" that leads him to emphasize and overblow every Allied blunder or every jewish saying against Germany and minimize or excuse every German crime.

You do the same. Only rarely--when you slip--do you openly come out and say the Arabs should have butchered the jews, or that the "zionists" control the media, or that suicide bombers' victims had it coming. You usually work by insinuation: it's just by sheer chance that every israeli action is pointed out in the worst possible light, while all Arab crimes and intentions go unnoticed or are excused.

But, as a reporter in Irving's trial said about it, the biggest disappointment of the David Irving trial was "his intelligence, which supposedly made him so dangerous. He is not convincing, not for a second." Same with you. Of course, it is an exagerration to say anybody is "disappointed" by your intelligence--that would require somebody having a high regard for it in the first place--but in both cases, your identical, obvious, and none-too-smart methods are rather obvious, and are not fooling anybody.
 
Skeptic said:
You just don't get it. I don't think the post is at all true, all I did was use your logic.

No, AUP. I do get it. As I explained above, you did NOT use my logic: criticizing the UN is NOT the same as a blood libel against the jews; the reporter I quoted is NOT a hack; the news story you used--a man involved in a sex scandal--is NOT the same as the establishment of quasi-official pedophile rings under UN cooperation.

Of course, as I said, you will CLAIM that it's just a "satire", or "suing my own logic", etc., but that's just the excuse. In reality, it was your excuse for repeating the ancient blood libel while then saying, "just joking".


I do not consider the post a joke, at all, nor humorous. Just putting you face to face with your own words. If you have a problem with that, take a look at yourself.



And, once again, you accuse me of being an anti-semite like David Irving.

Yup. You are.


And once again, I am deeply offended by that statement, attacking me personally, and causing me great pain. You have repeatedly made that claim, and I am calling you a liar. You Skeptic, are a brazen, unapologetic, shameless liar.
 
a_unique_person said:
Yep, the bit where you didn't have any evidence to accuse me of just going to sites like EI. I believe I would have read Haaretz more than that.

Ah, so you missed the part where I said you would fit right in writing for Electronic Intifada.

a_unique_person said:
I do not consider the post a joke, at all, nor humorous. Just putting you face to face with your own words. If you have a problem with that, take a look at yourself.

You just don't get it.

The UN is an organization. As an organization it has some big problems. One of the problems is an apparent inability to rid itself of corruption and put an end to its soldiers exploiting children for sex. Criticizing it is no different from criticizing any organization from the government of Saddam Hussein to the Boy Scouts.

Your "parody" turns around and attacks a people The very definition of racism. If you had limited it to the IDF, your argument might make some sense, you’d just be switching out one organization for another. But instead you say "Sex, apparently, what the Jews take from you if you can't pay cash."

It would be as if I got upset at an attack on the Los Angeles Police Department and turned around and wrote a "parody" attacking "◊◊◊◊◊◊◊." It would make no sense and is not at all comparable.

Look, this is grotesque. I don’t want to keep beating you up over this, just read that OP again and ask yourself if you really think it was an appropriate way to get your point across. Maybe think about it overnight if it doesn’t come to you at first.
 
The Fool said:
Don't suppose you are even remotely interested in applying this requirement to those who's world view you share?....no?
Ah, I finally figured out what the freak you were talking about. You're asking if I should "apply this requirement" to the likes of Skeptic and ZN and Mycroft.

Let me tell you something. Whenever I see you and these other gentlemen getting into a pissing contest, I just hit the "PgDn" button until I get to the next post. At best, I get a very brief idea about what y'all are yelling about ("Racist!" "Anti-semite!") and I suppose if I thought I was going to live ten or twenty thousand years, I might actually read them, but otherwise, what's the point? I'm in the second half of my life, maybe even the last third (hell, I might be in the last 100th, for all I know), and I don't have time for pissing contests, which, BTW, is why I skip past anything to or from Ion.

So, honestly, I don't know if any of the above-mentioned gentlemen have said anything remotely as inflammatory as AUP, or whether you have either, though I believe the answer is "no" in both cases. If you can show me where they have, I'll be happy to demand they apologize, too.

BTW, by mentioning that I share the same worldview as these gentlemen, are you suggesting that I'm a racist, too?

BTW2, it looks like that apology from AUP isn't forthcoming. Dommage...
 
Only a small handful of people have seen fit to express contempt at AUP

I would like to take this moment to express my contempt at both the AUP's post, and AUP himself.
 
AUP, you are filth.

I say that not as an American to an Australian.
I say that not as a conservative to a liberal.
I say that not as a pragmatist to a utopian.

I say that as a human being to a creature that walks on two legs in a sick, hateful, grotesque imitation of humanity.

May your own prejudices be revisted upon you a hundredfold.
 
And once again, I am deeply offended by that statement, attacking me personally, and causing me great pain.

Good!

Thanks for making my day, AUP. Knowing that I am causing you "great pain" brightens my week and puts a happy spring in my step. I simply don't give a damn about your precious feelings, or whether or not I am causing you "great pain". Sorry.

But, if you are so bloody hurt by what I'm saying, then DON'T READ IT. Nobody forces you to read my posts (you can use the "ignore" function, you know)--or to read this forum--or to be on the internet at all.
 
Theoretically, it should make no difference whether the group mentioned in the opening post alleged parody was Jews and Israel, the Spanish and Spain, the Rastafarians and Jamaica, or the gays and Fire Island. As Matabiri said, substituting X for Y in the statement will betray unconscious prejudices.

And a couple of posters have asked why Auppy "picked the Jews and Israel", implying that any other group would have been acceptable.

At first, yeah, I was like, "so, some groups get special protection?" and all indignant in the name of equality, etc.

However, on further thought, I realized that some groups, due to history and politics, really are different in these situations.

Think about it; I can, and have, frequently mocked the Swiss. I say terrible things about them, and it's clear to all that it's merely parody and a joke, because really, who the heck would be racist against the Swiss? Nobody takes it seriously, because there is no background. They don't really believe I hate the Swiss because it's obviously ridiculous.

Had I said the same things about Hispanics, though, would it have been that obvious? It certainly wouldn't sound as funny. In the US, anyway, there is quite a bit of racism against Hispanics. It is quite possible that I really am racist against them, as far as you guys know....a parody or amusingly satirical faux-racist comment against them wouldn't really fly very well as a result.

The Jews really can't, at this point in time and history, be loaned very easily to such parodies and satire. It's edgy when Cartman says antisemitic things, but it's a freaking cartoon character. People don't take it seriously, and thus don't take offense. It's obviously satire, or parody, or anything but serious.

This forum, however, is a collection of writings of some very intelligent people from all over the world. We only know so much about the others, and can't really say for certain in many cases whether someone is making a joke, making a point, or making a case for racist ideology.

I'm not saying this well, and this thread is growing by leaps and bounds with the far more well-worded posts of non-monkeys. I can, however, say that I do belong to an unpopular subset of the population, and it really is different when you hear the same comment said on Comedy Central as a joke, or from a pulpit as a sermon, or from a politician as a campaign speech. This forum is at times and in turn, functioning like all three of those places. How you read the opening post will depend on which one you think it is at that particular moment.

Would anyone here change their reaction to the "parody" if it had been Eric Cartman saying the same thing on "South Park"?


PS: Stop the Swiss!
 
Skeptic said:
And once again, I am deeply offended by that statement, attacking me personally, and causing me great pain.

Good!

Thanks for making my day, AUP. Knowing that I am causing you "great pain" brightens my week and puts a happy spring in my step. I simply don't give a damn about your precious feelings, or whether or not I am causing you "great pain". Sorry.

But, if you are so bloody hurt by what I'm saying, then DON'T READ IT. Nobody forces you to read my posts (you can use the "ignore" function, you know)--or to read this forum--or to be on the internet at all.

But you make these claims to the whole forum, repeatdly, and if not you, Rikzilla, behind my back in threads in which I am not participating.
 
Jocko said:
AUP, you are filth.

I say that not as an American to an Australian.
I say that not as a conservative to a liberal.
I say that not as a pragmatist to a utopian.

I say that as a human being to a creature that walks on two legs in a sick, hateful, grotesque imitation of humanity.

May your own prejudices be revisted upon you a hundredfold.
Hi Jocko...nice to see you could advance the debate...
 
Jocko said:
AUP, you are filth.

I say that not as an American to an Australian.
I say that not as a conservative to a liberal.
I say that not as a pragmatist to a utopian.

I say that as a human being to a creature that walks on two legs in a sick, hateful, grotesque imitation of humanity.

May your own prejudices be revisted upon you a hundredfold.

It was not my prejudices you are complaining about, but skeptics. The words are all his.
 
a_unique_person said:
It was not my prejudices you are complaining about, but skeptics. The words are all his.
I guess my problem is that I cannot accept that a claim that palestinians are bloodthirsty backward savages is not to be considered racist...but if rewritten as Israelis are bloodthirsty backward savages it would be racist... Guess I can never be a member of skeptic's apologia club....oh well, such is life.
 
TragicMonkey said:
And a couple of posters have asked why Auppy "picked the Jews and Israel", implying that any other group would have been acceptable.

At first, yeah, I was like, "so, some groups get special protection?" and all indignant in the name of equality, etc.

However, on further thought, I realized that some groups, due to history and politics, really are different in these situations.

I agree to a certain extent, although I'm still on record as thinking that AUPs post was funny. Possibly that's because (and this relates to your comments about the Swiss) I've never met an actual anti-semite in the flesh in my life that I'm aware of. My girlfriend and I both find American sitcoms like "Will and Grace" and "Seinfeld" baffling on occasion because you're somehow supposed to know which characters are Jewish and which aren't, ad we have literally no idea unless they are wearing a Jewish head-thingie.

So it seems perfectly appropriate to gore Skeptic's sacred cow, in return for Skeptic goring the UN which we lefties tend to appeal to as the solution to all international problems (if only it weren't corrupt, inefficient and mostly impotent...).

Would anyone here change their reaction to the "parody" if it had been Eric Cartman saying the same thing on "South Park"?

It's only funny because it's turning Skeptic's highly offensive and stupid words against something Skeptic values. Outside that specific context it would just be stupid and highly offensive itself.
 
Jocko said:
AUP, you are filth.

I say that not as an American to an Australian.
I say that not as a conservative to a liberal.
I say that not as a pragmatist to a utopian.

I say that as a human being to a creature that walks on two legs in a sick, hateful, grotesque imitation of humanity.

May your own prejudices be revisted upon you a hundredfold.

I would also add that, while the words are all his, he actually believes them all, I don't believe any of it.
 
Lucky said:
a_u_p: I do get the 'joke', but I can't say I'm terribly amused, and here's why. When I saw the title of your thread I had that familiar, sickening feeling I get when I see that kind of thing for real in mainstream newspapers here, for example.

I have tried several times in this forum to explain what it is like to be a member of a small minority that is on the receiving end of racist abuse, only to be told that it's not 'real' racism. I think this is because it's usually only anti-semitic graffiti, graveyard desecrations, hate mail, my son being beaten up at school etc. (not many of us are stabbed and so forth).

The fact that you think insulting Jews (a people) is a good analogy to insulting the UN (an organisation) suggests that you are somewhat lacking in sensitivity (and logic) on this issue.


And on that basis I am prepared to apologise.

I don't recall if I have told you this, but I was once accosted on the street when I was a teenager, told I was a Jew, and spat at. Not at all a pleasant experience. I don't see the post as humorous at all, nor skeptics original post. People in the UN die for their job, witness what happened in Iraq. It was meant to be nothing more than an attempt to show Skeptic to himself in a mirror. I don't believe a word of the post.

I do know that being spat at and being called a Jew feels just the same as being accused as being in league with David Irving, an insult that is regularly levelled at me.
 

Back
Top Bottom