A thread in response to the UN Rape allegations thread

[Charlie Monoxide]

How does such a small country in the middle east cause so much grief?

Charlie (thank god [or yahweh] it's Friday) Monoxide

 

[Lucky]

a_u_p: I do get the 'joke', but I can't say I'm terribly amused, and here's why. When I saw the title of your thread I had that familiar, sickening feeling I get when I see that kind of thing for real in mainstream newspapers here, for example.

I have tried several times in this forum to explain what it is like to be a member of a small minority that is on the receiving end of racist abuse, only to be told that it's not 'real' racism. I think this is because it's usually only anti-semitic graffiti, graveyard desecrations, hate mail, my son being beaten up at school etc. (not many of us are stabbed and so forth).

The fact that you think insulting Jews (a people) is a good analogy to insulting the UN (an organisation) suggests that you are somewhat lacking in sensitivity (and logic) on this issue.

My reason for not being outraged at Skeptic's thread is the same as z-n's: I didn't know about it as I never read that kind of stuff.

From The Fool:
I have watched your long history here of joining with your little band of brothers spreading bigottry intolerance and hatred...Skeptics thread drew no response from you...

From richardm:
the people who are most vociferous in their attacks on the UN happen to be people who are most vociferous in their defence of Israel. By replacing the UN with a subject dear to their hearts, AUP was able to show how ridiculous it is to blame and dismiss an entire people (or organisation) for the actions of a few individuals. Yes, it was deliberate - that was the point; to show how misleading and inflammatory posts like the "UN are rapists" one was.

Fool and richardm: you are confusing your Yids. Skeptic is the one that started the anti-UN thread. z-n is also a Yid, and a supporter of Israel (as are most of us). However, we Yids are individuals, don’t generally hold the same opinions on politics, the UN or anything else (other than, for most of us, Israel’s right to exist), and don’t collaborate as a faction on this board. As z-n pointed out, he knew nothing about Skeptic’s thread.

Perhaps we all look the same to you, but if you concentrate enough you may begin to distinguish us.

 

[zenith-nadir]

a_u_p: I do get the 'joke', but I can't say I'm terribly amused

Usually 'jokes' are funny not racist diatribes specifically posted to attack another posters' religion.

I have tried several times in this forum to explain what it is like to be a member of a small minority that is on the receiving end of racist abuse, only to be told that it's not 'real' racism.

It's not 'real' racism at JREF...just reread the thread.... it is excused as "parody" or "lampooning" or a host of other sickening rationalizations too obtuse to list. Hell, no one will even admit a_u_p was trolling in every sense of the word. I guess I can post anything here - no matter how racist - and it will be brushed it off with lame jokes...and that is why the politics forum has become what it is, because no one is willing to take a stand.

 

[richardm]

Fool and richardm: you are confusing your Yids. Skeptic is the one that started the anti-UN thread.

Yes, I'm well aware of who started the anti-UN thread, thanks. I'm sure you're not suggesting that Skeptic isn't vociferously pro-Israel?

 

[Earthborn]

I suggest a_u_p that next time he wants to parody someone else's post, he should do it in the thread the original post was in instead of starting another thread. That should at least prevent a lot of confusion to people who may not have read the post that is being parodied.

Even posted in the appropriate thread, the 'parody' would have been in extremely bad taste. This is because not only is the parody particularly unfunny, it is also ineffective at getting the intended message across. Once it includes certain insults, especially insults directed at minority groups that often have it difficult enough, many people will only react to the insults and not to the intended message.

Here is similar example of an ill-conceived attempt to parody that uses an insult to a minority group. The reaction is also similar: people react to the insult, and not to the parody.

People! There is a lesson to be learned here! It is: if you don't mean* to insult, don't use insults to try to make your point.

It's like so simple, it's like self-evident or whatever!

* ... and if you do mean to insult: stfu.

 

[Skeptic]

The reaction is also similar: people react to the insult, and not to the parody.

Yes, but there is a difference. Mycroft's post--which I took him to the task for as being in extremely poor taste--was a sick joke about a baby born with two heads in Afghanistan. Even if Mycroft did hate Muslims, it could hardly be argued that "making fun of two-headed Muslims" is somehow a common thread in anti-Muslim literature, for rather obvious reasons.

AUP, however, in his "parody", is repeating the age-old accusation about jews as seducer of gentile girls. It gives one the strong suspicion that, in essence, AUP's mask fell off: he finally "saw his chance" to repeat this old antisemitic libel, under the cover of "I'm just joking", so he naturally took it. No doubt, it gave him equisite pleasure.

 

[Lucky]

From richardm:
Yes, I'm well aware of who started the anti-UN thread, thanks. I'm sure you're not suggesting that Skeptic isn't vociferously pro-Israel?

No, you have missed my point so I’ll make it again. I feel that you and Fool are lumping us all together, and, to me, that feels a little bit like prejudice. To be fair, in your case it is Israel supporters rather than Jews that you lump together, but that is not much better, as I will try to explain.

the people who are most vociferous in their attacks on the UN happen to be people who are most vociferous in their defence of Israel

Now, ‘vociferous’ supporters of Israel tend to be Jewish (and there is an even stronger tendency for Jews to be ‘vociferous’ supporters of Israel). Of the regular Israel supporters here, it is certainly true that Skeptic quite often attacks the UN. I don’t think z-n does, I’m virtually certain Mycroft, Cleopatra and webfusion don’t, and I’m damned sure I never have (apologies to 'regular Israel supporters' that I have missed).

So, what you say seems factually incorrect, and I am wondering why you have that impression.

 

[a_unique_person]

The reaction is also similar: people react to the insult, and not to the parody.

Yes, but there is a difference. Mycroft's post--which I took him to the task for as being in extremely poor taste--was a sick joke about a baby born with two heads in Afghanistan. Even if Mycroft did hate Muslims, it could hardly be argued that "making fun of two-headed Muslims" is somehow a common thread in anti-Muslim literature, for rather obvious reasons.

AUP, however, in his "parody", is repeating the age-old accusation about jews as seducer of gentile girls. It gives one the strong suspicion that, in essence, AUP's mask fell off: he finally "saw his chance" to repeat this old antisemitic libel, under the cover of "I'm just joking", so he naturally took it. No doubt, it gave him equisite pleasure.

You just don't get it. I don't think the post is at all true, all I did was use your logic. Even when you stare it in the face, you can't recognise it.

And, once again, you accuse me of being an anti-semite like David Irving. Despite my repeated requests that this libel is not made of me, because there is no basis for it whatsoever, you call up some strange psychic powers that allow you to discern what I am really thinking. This 'mask fell' is a libel, and I have raised merry hell every time you have made it, and you just keep making it. And every time you make it, it damn well hurts. So when are you going to stop. I am not like David Irving, I do not wear accusations of anti-semitism like a badge of pride, I feel them and they hurt deeply.

 

[a_unique_person]

No, you have missed my point so I’ll make it again. I feel that you and Fool are lumping us all together, and, to me, that feels a little bit like prejudice. To be fair, in your case it is Israel supporters rather than Jews that you lump together, but that is not much better, as I will try to explain.

Now, ‘vociferous’ supporters of Israel tend to be Jewish (and there is an even stronger tendency for Jews to be ‘vociferous’ supporters of Israel). Of the regular Israel supporters here, it is certainly true that Skeptic quite often attacks the UN. I don’t think z-n does, I’m virtually certain Mycroft, Cleopatra and webfusion don’t, and I’m damned sure I never have (apologies to 'regular Israel supporters' that I have missed).

So, what you say seems factually incorrect, and I am wondering why you have that impression.

Point taken. I don't see the parody as humorous at all, just twisted, vicious logic that some don't get. I have said already I am happy for the thread to be deleted. I had hoped that ZN, SKeptic and Mycroft might finally get the point, apparently, they don't, can't and won't. So I give up.

 

[BPSCG]

AUP -

Just because something is not forbidden doesn't mean it's a good idea.

There's no law that prohibits me from saying to the fat and ugly tub of goo sitting next to me on the train, "Hey, you're a fat and ugly tub of goo" (not in this country, anyway...)

It's still not a good idea.

And just because the moderators here haven't censored your your post, that doesn't mean it was a good idea to post it in the first place. It was gratuitously offensive, ugly, and mean-spirited.

Yes, we all stick our feet in our mouths on occasion. But when a civil person does that, he apologizes, without excuse, attempt at justification, or qualification, and without trying to shed any of the blame onto others. It's a difficult thing to do, emotionally, and it's particularly difficult to do in front of an audience. But it's something we have to do if we want to win back some of the respect we've lost because of our careless mouths. And, frankly, AUP, I believe that even among those here who would not censor your post - and I'm one of them - your stockpile of respect is very, very low right now.

So the question is: Are you man enough to stand up in front of everyone and say, "Listen, everyone. I was out of line with that post. I'm sorry."?

 

[Earthborn]

it could hardly be argued that "making fun of two-headed Muslims" is somehow a common thread in anti-Muslim literature

Equating a group of people who are perceived as the enemy with 'monsters' is common, though.

AUP, however, in his "parody", is repeating the age-old accusation about jews as seducer of gentile girls.

True. Of course he would also be repeating an age-old accusation about Jews if he chose pretty much any other accusation. And because prejudices against minorities often follow a common pattern, he could have accused any other minority (with a possible exception for 'sodomites') of the same thing and also have been repeating an age-old accusation. The only way he could have avoided repeating an age-old accusation is not using an insult against any group of people.

It gives one the strong suspicion that, in essence, AUP's mask fell off: he finally "saw his chance" to repeat this old antisemitic libel

Personally I am a firm believer in the principle that one must not attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Therefore I prefer to think of a_u_p's OP as a monumental lapse in judgement.

 

[The Fool]

Fool and richardm: you are confusing your Yids. Skeptic is the one that started the anti-UN thread. z-n is also a Yid, and a supporter of Israel (as are most of us). However, we Yids are individuals, don’t generally hold the same opinions on politics, the UN or anything else (other than, for most of us, Israel’s right to exist), and don’t collaborate as a faction on this board. As z-n pointed out, he knew nothing about Skeptic’s thread.

Perhaps we all look the same to you, but if you concentrate enough you may begin to distinguish us.

What on earth leads you to the conclusion that ZN's "band of brothers" (my term) are "yids" (your term). I'm not sure of thier religion or ethnicity and don't care...If its important to you and you want to research it go ahead....
His little friends share a problem with Arabs and muslims, I'm fairly sure they don't share a version of god.

 

[Mycroft]

Here is similar example of an ill-conceived attempt to parody that uses an insult to a minority group. The reaction is also similar: people react to the insult, and not to the parody.

I can think of one important difference between these two threads.

When I was the one who had stepped over the line, the focus was on me and how I had stepped over the line. Even those who normally agree with me and hold similar opinions were aghast at my poor taste. This, in my opinion, is as it should have been.

In this thread, however, most of the attention has been directed not at AUP's abominable behavior, but at the one most vocal in drawing attention to it. Only a small handful of people have seen fit to express contempt at AUP, and those that normally agree with him and hold similar opinions are still openly supportive of him.

 

[The Fool]

AUP -

Just because something is not forbidden doesn't mean it's a good idea.

There's no law that prohibits me from saying to the fat and ugly tub of goo sitting next to me on the train, "Hey, you're a fat and ugly tub of goo" (not in this country, anyway...)

It's still not a good idea.

And just because the moderators here haven't censored your your post, that doesn't mean it was a good idea to post it in the first place. It was gratuitously offensive, ugly, and mean-spirited.

Yes, we all stick our feet in our mouths on occasion. But when a civil person does that, he apologizes, without excuse, attempt at justification, or qualification, and without trying to shed any of the blame onto others. It's a difficult thing to do, emotionally, and it's particularly difficult to do in front of an audience. But it's something we have to do if we want to win back some of the respect we've lost because of our careless mouths. And, frankly, AUP, I believe that even among those here who would not censor your post - and I'm one of them - your stockpile of respect is very, very low right now.

So the question is: Are you man enough to stand up in front of everyone and say, "Listen, everyone. I was out of line with that post. I'm sorry."?

Don't suppose you are even remotely interested in applying this requirement to those who's world view you share?....no?

 

[a_unique_person]

a_u_p: I do get the 'joke', but I can't say I'm terribly amused, and here's why. When I saw the title of your thread I had that familiar, sickening feeling I get when I see that kind of thing for real in mainstream newspapers here, for example.

I have tried several times in this forum to explain what it is like to be a member of a small minority that is on the receiving end of racist abuse, only to be told that it's not 'real' racism. I think this is because it's usually only anti-semitic graffiti, graveyard desecrations, hate mail, my son being beaten up at school etc. (not many of us are stabbed and so forth).

The fact that you think insulting Jews (a people) is a good analogy to insulting the UN (an organisation) suggests that you are somewhat lacking in sensitivity (and logic) on this issue.

My reason for not being outraged at Skeptic's thread is the same as z-n's: I didn't know about it as I never read that kind of stuff.

Fool and richardm: you are confusing your Yids. Skeptic is the one that started the anti-UN thread. z-n is also a Yid, and a supporter of Israel (as are most of us). However, we Yids are individuals, don’t generally hold the same opinions on politics, the UN or anything else (other than, for most of us, Israel’s right to exist), and don’t collaborate as a faction on this board. As z-n pointed out, he knew nothing about Skeptic’s thread.

Perhaps we all look the same to you, but if you concentrate enough you may begin to distinguish us.

Lucky, I am sorry to have offended you like this. Skeptic was my target, obviously, and I am just waiting for him to stop these "mask fell" accusations. Now it is not just Skeptic making them, but Rikzilla. I don't know if people believe it or not, but I don't like them, and they hurt deeply, and I have made it perfectly clear, they I think they should stop. If there is evidence of anti-semitism, then I will wear it. Otherwise, I refuse to take it. I had complained to the mods that the most recent attacks, from Mycroft and Rikzilla were libellous, but no reply was made.

 

[BPSCG]

Don't suppose you are even remotely interested in applying this requirement to those who's world view you share?....no?

I have no idea what you're talking about (though this is some more Fool-ish innuendo), but if it makes you feel any better, I actually did call a guy a fat tub of goo once (didn't call him ugly). He got pretty ticked off, and I realized my clever little quip hadn't been worth the ugly feeling it caused. And I apologized. It wasn't easy, but it was the right thing to do.

Do you think AUP should apologize for his post? I know there are a lot of fire-breathers here, myself not excepted, but when someone as reasonable and (as far as I can tell) as genuinely nice as Earthborn calls him out on it, I have to believe he's really crossed over the line that separates hard debate from gratuitous insult.

 

[Earthborn]

I don't see the parody as humorous at all

If it is not humorous, than it is also not effective.

twisted, vicious logic that some don't get.

I think for most of us the twisted vicious logic of Skeptic's post was perfectly clear. The people for whom it was not clear would not suddenly understand it if it reworded the way you did.

I had hoped that ZN, SKeptic and Mycroft might finally get the point, apparently, they don't, can't and won't.

You cannot convince someone by insulting them, or saying something they might interpret as an insult. It just doesn't work that way.

I have said already I am happy for the thread to be deleted.

I'm not. I think a lapse of judgement this monumental deserves a place on UNESCO's World Heritage List.

 

[Mycroft]

Lucky, I am sorry to have offended you like this. Skeptic was my target, obviously, and I am just waiting for him to stop these "mask fell" accusations. Now it is not just Skeptic making them, but Rikzilla. I don't know if people believe it or not, but I don't like them, and they hurt deeply, and I have made it perfectly clear, they I think they should stop. If there is evidence of anti-semitism, then I will wear it. Otherwise, I refuse to take it. I had complained to the mods that the most recent attacks, from Mycroft and Rikzilla were libellous, but no reply was made.

I responded

Seriously, did you ever think of examining your own beliefs and figure out why so many people come to this conclusion?

 

[a_unique_person]

I responded

Seriously, did you ever think of examining your own beliefs and figure out why so many people come to this conclusion?

That makes me a David Irving? That's all you need to make repeated 'mask slip' allegations.

 

[demon]

What am I missing here ?
This is a joke isn't it ? If AUP intentions with this thread were anti-semitic, I'm a gay dutchman. This is silly season stuff. I've seldom seen more heat generated with so little light in an issue than with the whole anti-semitism thing over this. It`s pretty obvious what this thread was about.

Pusillaminous, opportunistic hacks like ZN, Mycroft and "Skeptic" hang around here for hours hoping to ambush and provoke those who see the fundamental injustice of the Palestinian issue with their thinnly veiled rascist remarks and two-headed Musilm baby jokes, and then having succeeded in getting a response the hacks then play the injured party ("shocked, shocked"), and then no doubt feel handsomely rewarded for their disingenuousness when others turn up to critcise the thread, not least by having raised their own profile and making a name for themsleves as guardians of moral virtue.

If it was me, I`d tell these hacks in so many words, to eat my f*#§ing shorts.