A medical question about rape.

[Dancing David]

Strawman again.

I have talked about privacy and confidentiality issues not about shame. Casebro has used this word but not me.

nimzo

And what confidence was violated, what assumptions are you making vs. the asumptions I am making?

Strawman to you for accusing her(assuming the gender of Julliette) of violating a confidence. In what ways was confidence violated?

You have talked about privacy but you haven't shown why you think it was violated, you just assume it was violated.

 

[The Atheist]

Please don't dismiss a rape claim by a child as BS on the grounds that they kept it secret at the time.

I'm sorry, mate, but I beg to differ.

I concur with your claim that only a third of rapes are reported, but this was a rape by "6 or 7 gang members", not her uncle or cousin. I do not accept that a 14 year old girl would be able to be subjected to that kind of assault and not be completely traumatised by it, both mentally and physically. I suggest that after that kind of assault, the girl would have been in urgent need of medical attention. The other side of the coin is that if the OP writer is a "professional" to whom the family have taken their daughter for counselling, how likely is it that that same "professional" would come in here to ask that question.

Where's that famous JREF scepticism? Occam's razor sheathed at the moment?

I repeat, the OP is BS.

 

[Katana]

Disclaimer: IANA doctor, and this is just my informed opinion.

Yes, her injuries would certainly have healed in 8 weeks. Rape injuries, short of an all-out two-fisted beating or a brutal sodomization, are commonly minor things like bruises, cuts, and possibly tearing of the vagina, all of which would have had adequate time to heal in two months. This is why modern women have had it drummed into their heads in rape-consciousness seminars that rapes must be reported as soon as possible in order that any physical evidence--such as bruises, cuts, the assailant's pubic hairs, and of course semen--may be officially preserved.

And, the absence of a readily identifiable hymen doesn't mean a thing. Modern girls, who indulge in things like bicycle riding, horseback riding, and gymnastics, don't always necessarily have a classic intact membrane that breaks and bleeds upon first intercourse. I was a virgin when I got married, and I didn't have a "busted hymen bleeds all over the sheets" experience--I spent my girlhood riding bikes and horses.

So just because a doctor can't find an intact hymen doesn't mean she was raped, and just because she's contradicting herself now, eight weeks later, doesn't mean she wasn't raped. Memory is a funny thing, as any prosecuting attorney who's been flummoxed by an eyewitness can tell you. And the memory of a severe trauma like a gang rape can be especially subject to ex post facto editing by the victim, who remembers it, not the way it was, but the way she thinks it was.

This would be true if we were talking about a girl who claimed that she hadn't been raped, but you wondered otherwise. A non-intact hymen wouldn't be conclusive proof of a crime.

However, we're talking about a girl who said that she was raped, but, supposedly, no physical evidence was found. If that means that she has an intact hyman, the odds of her having been sexually assaulted plummet.

That being said, a second opinion is in order from a medical professional trained to do sexual assault examinations. There is too much at stake.

 

[andyandy]

I'm sorry, mate, but I beg to differ.

I concur with your claim that only a third of rapes are reported, but this was a rape by "6 or 7 gang members", not her uncle or cousin. I do not accept that a 14 year old girl would be able to be subjected to that kind of assault and not be completely traumatised by it, both mentally and physically. I suggest that after that kind of assault, the girl would have been in urgent need of medical attention.

Firstly, your implication is clear - that someone subjected to serious sexual assault would not choose to keep such an assault secret. I would like to see upon what you base this belief. Secondly, you have no details of the assault - other than the fact that it was alleged to have involved a number of men. As such on what basis do you claim that all rape victims subject to assault by a number of men would be "in urgent need of medical attention (implying injuries so severe as to preclude covering up such an incident)?" I don't believe we have enough evidence to conclude either way as to whether or not the girls' claim is "BS" - you apparently do. As such i would be interested for you to substantiate your assertion.

 

[The Atheist]

Firstly, your implication is clear - that someone subjected to serious sexual assualt would not be able to, nor would they wish to keep such an assualt secret. I would like to see upon what you base this belief. Secondly, you have no details of the assualt - other than the fact that it was alledged to have involved a number of men. As such on what basis do you claim that all rape victims subject to assault by a number of men would be "in urgent need of medical attention (implying injuries so severe as to preclude covering up such an incident)?"

Ok, a quick look shows that the two things most often associated with serious injury are youth of victim and multiple offenders:

"Amount of aggression and degradation increases as each person takes “their turn”" Forensics Talk

"Lack of sexual experience in adolescence and menopausal changes and less frequent intercourse in older women may account for prevalence of injury at both ends of the age continuum."

and

"Single perpetrator rapes were more likely to have no injury documentation than multiple perpetrator rapes" from Medscape

There's an awful lot of reading in this and this, both from University of Georgia (USA), which indicate that reporting likelihood increases with both the youth of the victim and multiplicity of assault.

While those don't preclude the girl from being uninjured or not reporting it, it makes the combination of both highly unlikely.

Add to that: what is the likelihood of a 57 year old (and therefore unlikely to be newly-graduated/qualified) counselling professional coming to the JREF forum for medical advice? Very low, I suggest. In the same circumstances, I would be talking to medical professionals, not a bunch of forum-dwellers.

Overall, I feel that for the OP to be true we have a statistical possibility around the same level as Flight 77 having not crashed into the Pentagon and all its passengers being held in FEMA camps while the Pentagon was hit by a missile or Lear Jet packed with cordite.

Yes, it's possible, barely, that the OP is true, but on that basis, so is the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Tooth Fairy and god, but I don't accept them either.

(I'm certainly not saying that victims don't want to cover the crime up because they clearly do, with a majority of rapes going unreported.)

 

[nimzov]

Then you don't know much about the medical profeshionals. They talk about these things, they just leave out the details of exactly who you are.

There is nothing here that would be a real HIPPA concern.

Just thought I'd second this.

Part of my job is handling secure file transfers for a major insurance company. so HIPPA regulations and PHI are a part of my bread and butter.

It's a violation only if identiying information is included with the medical information.

And I work for a company that provides medical services for the developmentally disabled and mentally ill. Part of my responsiblity is preventing HIPPA violations or reporting them when discovered.

Huntsman and Ponderingturtle are 100% correct.

The parents or anyone close to this family can identify this young girl by googling with only 4 words relating to this case :

church 14 "gang raping" std

First link from Google will send you right here to this thread.

Some of the information that the young girl divulged in confidentiality is unfortunately now accessible to her entourage by a simple search on the net. And this is archived for a long time.

Even if technically posting this information may be legal, there still is a problem of privacy and confidentiality.

nimzo

 

[ponderingturtle]

The parents or anyone close to this family can identify this young girl by googling with only 4 words relating to this case :

church 14 "gang raping" std

First link from Google will send you right here to this thread.

Some of the information that the young girl divulged in confidentiality is unfortunately now accessible to her entourage by a simple search on the net. And this is archived for a long time.

Even if technically posting this information may be legal, there still is a problem of privacy and confidentiality.

nimzo

How do you figure that?

You clearly had to massage that as church 14 gang rape where the first one is about a priest and such gang raping a 14 year old girl. hell it turned up an Anti DND chick tract first.

You are being dishonnest about the ease that this turns up in search engion, why would someone so specificaly search for STD, as that seems to be what changes the ranking?

Also there is no indication in this at all about location or even the existance of STD's, so really we are violateing the privacy of a great many individuals who's claims meet the criteria discussed here.

 

[Juliette]

First of all I want to say that in an attempt to give as few actual details as possible, I was not entirely factual. The girl - though young, is a different age. She was not walking home from "church". These were not "gang members". She does not live in my area and she is not a "client". (I have not been employed in a few years and had to laugh at being referred to as "a proffesional".)

In an attempt to help a young friend - who I very much want to believe - and whose parents I am urging to find a sexual assault therapist for - I wanted a bit of information. With "medicine" being in the title of this forum, and having read some medical advice here in the past from some intelligent people who seemed to be medical proffesionals, I posted here.

My question was answered and I want to thank those who did so.

 

[jmercer]

Thanks for the clarification, Juliette.

My advice is - convince the girl to see the sexual assault therapist. One way or the other, the kid needs help.

 

[Dancing David]

First of all I want to say that in an attempt to give as few actual details as possible, I was not entirely factual. The girl - though young, is a different age. She was not walking home from "church". These were not "gang members". She does not live in my area and she is not a "client". (I have not been employed in a few years and had to laugh at being referred to as "a proffesional".)

In an attempt to help a young friend - who I very much want to believe - and whose parents I am urging to find a sexual assault therapist for - I wanted a bit of information. With "medicine" being in the title of this forum, and having read some medical advice here in the past from some intelligent people who seemed to be medical proffesionals, I posted here.

My question was answered and I want to thank those who did so.

Good luck, the only caveat is if you can convince her to see a therapist is that it not be a 'christian therapist' if they are not a sexual assault therapist. I am sure there are very good 'christian counselors' out there but some are not very helpful.

The young person is very lucky to have you there.

 

[The Atheist]

First of all I want to say that in an attempt to give as few actual details as possible, I was not entirely factual. The girl - though young, is a different age. She was not walking home from "church". These were not "gang members". She does not live in my area and she is not a "client". (I have not been employed in a few years and had to laugh at being referred to as "a proffesional".)

Let me see:

The age was a lie.
There were no gang members involved.
She wasn't walking home from church.
She's not a client.
The poster's not a therapist.

Now what was that comment again?

I repeat, the OP is BS.

Yep, that's the one.

 

[Dancing David]

How do you figure that?

You clearly had to massage that as church 14 gang rape where the first one is about a priest and such gang raping a 14 year old girl. hell it turned up an Anti DND chick tract first.

You are being dishonnest about the ease that this turns up in search engion, why would someone so specificaly search for STD, as that seems to be what changes the ranking?

Also there is no indication in this at all about location or even the existance of STD's, so really we are violateing the privacy of a great many individuals who's claims meet the criteria discussed here.

truly massaging!

I entered '14 year old gang rape church woods' as my second attempt and got it to go to the JREF 1st.

'Woods' seems to be a rare word compared to 'STD'

'14 year old gang rape church' did not produce the JREF on the first page.

 

[The Atheist]

First of all I want to say that in an attempt to give as few actual details as possible, I was not entirely factual.

In fact, having gone back and re-read the OP, your comment should read:

I was not factual IN ANY WAY AT ALL

 

[kellyb]

These were not "gang members".

This county has been having a chronic problem with gang activity. It is known that one initiation members go through is to participate in gang raping a young girl. The younger the better.

Uh, that's kind of excessive for simply wanting to conceal this girl's identity, isn't it?

 

[casebro]

Originally Posted by Juliette View Post
These were not "gang members".

Quote:
This county has been having a chronic problem with gang activity. It is known that one initiation members go through is to participate in gang raping a young girl. The younger the better.
Uh, that's kind of excessive for simply wanting to conceal this girl's identity, isn't it?

Who thinks Julliette is having a 'gang rape' fantasy all her own?

 

[RSLancastr]

All:

Since I do not frequent this part of the forum, I did not see this thread until now.

Julia/Juliette has been a personal friend of mine for several years.

I know about how she came in contact with the girl, and that she modified the info in the OP so as to respect the girl's privacy.

The Atheist (and others) who think the whole thing is BS: it isn't.

Casebro: you should be ashamed.

 

[casebro]

All:

Since I do not frequent this part of the forum, I did not see this thread until now.

Julia/Juliette has been a personal friend of mine for several years.

I know about how she came in contact with the girl, and that she modified the info in the OP so as to respect the girl's privacy.

The Atheist (and others) who think the whole thing is BS: it isn't.

Casebro: you should be ashamed.

I shall never be ashamed of having ideas. Why should I be?

My post has been here about a month now, without anybody else commenting on it. You seem to be the only user here with a problem with me sharing my ideas on a public skeptic forum. Perhaps you are the one who should be ashamed?

 

[RSLancastr]

I shall never be ashamed of having ideas. Why should I be?

Your profile says you are 53 years old.

If you have gotten this far in life without knowing why you shuld be ashamed of insinuating that a woman whom you don't know is fantasizing about being gang-raped, I doubt you could learn now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If I was the victim or someone close to the victim I would be offended to think that such a personnal tragedy is discussed in a public forum on the Internet.

nimzo

Do you know the person's name from reading this? If not then what's your beef?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Kids that age make up lots of stories.

Did the medical exam show the girl a virgin or just that no signs of forced penetration were there? If it showed an intact hymen then she wasn't raped by 6 men.

Why tell the parents a false story 6 weeks later? You need to find out what the circumstances of this was. Did she fear she was pregnant having missed a period? Was there some other family dynamic trouble and the story relieved the girl of some other parental disapproval or something? You really need to investigate a lot more here to get to the underlying issues.

It could by she is a very dysfunctional child and this is part of a pattern of attention getting. I've seen some very messed up kids on occasion.