A first-hand account of tonight's demonstration in Athens

[Caper]

Are Canadian politicians massively corrupt?

No I wouldn't say. Probably below average for a western politician.

Is not paying taxes and having the government look the other way standard practice in Canada?

God no if there is one thing Canadian governments like to do it's collecting taxes.

Does Canada greatly underfund government pensions?

Geeze I know the politicians have a sweet pension plan... I do think they are underfunded.... but not sure by how much.

Does Canada have a bloated government payroll? Does Canada promise benefits far beyond their means to pay for them?

I would say yes.


If you answered "yes" to these questions Greece's fate may be your future.

Although as a resident of Illinois I can answer "yes" to all of these questions except the one about tax avoidance if I substitute "Illinois" for "Canada"...

 

[NoZed Avenger]

El G -- keep your head down/stay safe.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Somehow I typo-ed the quote codes in this post. My apologies to Democracy Now. Here's a correction of the the part that should have been in quotes but wasn't for the record:

"Real Despair" Sweeps Through Greece as Severe Austerity Measures Demanded by E.U.-IMF Cripple Nation

... AMY GOODMAN: And the effect on Europe? Moody’s Service cut the debt ratings of six European nations on Monday, including Italy, Spain and Portugal—the outlooks.

MARIA MARGARONIS: Right. Well, I think what the troika are trying to do is put a firewall around Greece and somehow cauterize the problem. But I don’t think this is going to work, because I think it’s very clear now that this is a pan-European problem and its root causes are the financial crisis that began in 2008 and also the structural problems in the eurozone, where there was no—there was no policy put in place to deal with profound inequalities between the northern and the southern countries.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think so, and certainly not automatically. Not if you're a Greek citizen or have residency rights or still within the EHIC (reciprocal EU medical treatment) 2-year limit.

I strongly suspect the comment by 'Maria' only relates to those outside the qualifications I outlined above.

It looks a tad more complicated to me, but I don't claim to know any more than I read.

Healthcare in Greece

The availability of public hospitals is limited to certain areas, which tend to cluster in big cities. ..

.. The public health system in Greece provides free, or low cost, healthcare services to residents (and their families) contributing to the social security system. Other benefits include free laboratory services, maternity care, medical-related appliances or devices and transportation. Other European Union nationals can also avail of free healthcare benefits provided they have their E111 forms.

Specialists can be consulted directly, but public hospital residents usually have long waiting lists. In urgent situations (but not in emergency cases) the patient may opt to see a private specialist and later reimburse (up to a maximum of 85% of the fee) the Idrima Kinonikon Asfalisseon (IKA). IKA is a government body which operates Greece’s National Healthcare System. Because of the limited facilities of some hospitals, patients can be referred to other hospitals. In the case of non-urgent operations, waiting times can be lengthy.

Emergency care is provided free of charge in public hospitals to anyone, regardless of nationality. There are also smaller outpatient clinics in rural areas which are attached to bigger public hospitals. ...

... IKA is a public insurance company that oversees Greece’s social security. At present, IKA covers the healthcare benefits of more than 5.5 million workers and employees, and pension benefits for approximately .83 million retirees. Those that are insured by IKA may continue their coverage for the pension scheme, medical care, or TEAM, even after they finish in employment. However, certain conditions have to be met...

Perhaps the report in The Nation when published will clarify what Margaronis was saying.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not seeing why you think the auto industry and Greece are analogous? If GM and Chrysler hadn't been bailed out they would have been bought out by some other company (in fact Fiat bought Chrysler anyway).

Just what do you think should be done with Greece? Do you think Germans should delay their retirements and pay higher taxes so Greeks can retire at 55 and not pay their taxes? What solution do you prefer?

The Greeks have no one to blame but themselves for their predicament.

You don't know what would have happened to GM or Chrysler without the bailout. No one does. But the right wing claiming all would be better without the bailout contradicts what they said before the bailout was shown to be successful. At that time the claim was the auto manufacturers are functioning with manufactured support, not true economic viability. Yet here they are obviously economically viable. Why is that? According to the right wing they shouldn't be able to exist without continual government support.

Greece's economy is in a serious depression. How are further cuts in government spending going to fix the problem?

And in this country during the depression in the early 30s government spending was indeed successful in turning things around. The right wing ideologues simply deny that fact and spout apologetic reasons why their ideology is better and the economic facts for which we have evidence are not true.

 

[Darth Rotor]

El Greco,

I appreciate your sentiments...however, my perspective is somewhat different.

The problems today aren't because of the current gov't, whether it is a dictatorship or not. It is the result of decades of disastrous policies that pandered to the Greek electorate -- the same Greeks who are now rioting in the streets. It is those people who put their leaders in power; it is those people who supported those leaders in making financial policies that, in the short-term, made people happy -- but that in the long-term, were disastrous.

I'll be quite frank with you. I think that if it were left up to the Greek people to decide, the situation would get far worse. A referendum? There's no way that different segments of society would come to any kind of consensus on what should be done. The only result would be further delay of badly needed decisions.

Your country needs action. It needs actions that are inevitably going to be painful and unpopular to the Greek people, but they are necessary because of decades of bad decisions made by their leaders and supported by them. And given what I've seen of the democratic process in Greece, if it were left to the people to decide -- that is, enough of a majority of the Greek people all agreeing on one policy, so that it could actually be enacted and enforced in Greece -- we'd be looking at a wait of years before anything was done.

Yeah, your leaders are acting like dictators. They're doing so because, right now, it is the only way that anything is going to get done. They're doing it because decades of disastrous decisions -- focusing on short-term policies to pander to the electorate rather than long-term policies that would actually benefit the nation -- have left Greece in a position where there are absolutely no effective answers that are going to make the Greek people happy.

Sure, put it to a democratic vote. You'll have Greeks screaming for at least twenty different options, entirely unable to agree on any one specific course of action. You'll have chaos, with no reasonable hope of resolution. You'll have a situation that will not only fail to resolve any problems, but that will just see the current crisis get even worse.

I'm sure you'll disagree...so present to me any option on which you think the majority of the Greek people would agree, if presented with the option of an election or a referendum. By that, I mean an option that enough Greeks would be unified in the decision so that the gov't could actually follow through on it effectively, and take action. "Leave the EU" or "Join the EU" don't suffice, as each of those options still requires numerous other decisions (cutting back on jobs, social welfare, public spending, and all sorts of other such things, on which I don't think the Greeks would ever be able to reach consensus).

Does the fact that you reside and are immersed in a large authoritarian nation have any influence on your opinion, I wonder.

Some of what you say makes sense, but is ORDER for the sake of order always the right path ahead?

 

[Darth Rotor]

This thread quickly evolves into another of countless discussions about what should be better for Greece/Eurozone/Euro etc. Mostly coming from people who know nothing about the subjects, but this is usual. My point here was different:

The measures that were voted are extremely serious for the future of the country, and totally contrary to what the politicians were saying before the elections. As such, they should only be brought in for voting AFTER elections or a referendum. The fact that whatever the spineless morons we have for politicians do is legal, is completely irrelevant. THEY get to decide what is legal and what is not, changing the laws and ignoring the constitution on their way (even the Constitutional Committee of the Parliament said that several articles of what was voted yesterday were anti-constitutional). Whether you think that A should be done, B is stupid and so on, it is totally irrelevant to the point. And whoever doesn't see this, is simply a moron.

I'd say that the political class, when it loses its fear of the people, will stop serving them and will try to rule them. It might be good now and again for the political class to be made aware that they are in their seats at the sufferance of the people, and are there to serve ... which I suspect the Greek politicians aren't particularly good at, though I am not sure where on the "in it for themselves" scale the Greeks compare to their American counterparts.

Stay safe. Thanks for the eyewitness report.

 

[SimonD]

... perhaps they shouldn't have borrowed mind-boggling amounts of money from them. I guess it all goes to show Thatcher was right: the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

Capitalsim doesn't use other people's money?

 

[GlennB]

Just what do you think should be done with Greece? Do you think Germans should delay their retirements and pay higher taxes so Greeks can retire at 55 and not pay their taxes? What solution do you prefer?

The Greeks have no one to blame but themselves for their predicament.

As a matter of interest, here are the average effective retirement age figures, 2001-09, for Greece, France and Germany (source: OECD). Spot Greece

58.7 58.5 58.7 58.7 58.6 58.4 58.7 59.1 59.1
61.1 61.0 61.1 61.3 61.7 61.8 62.0 61.1 61.8
63.1 62.5 63.1 62.6 62.4 62.1 62.5 62.1 61.9

 

[WildCat]

You don't know what would have happened to GM or Chrysler without the bailout. No one does.

You sure seem to think you know!

But the right wing claiming all would be better without the bailout contradicts what they said before the bailout was shown to be successful. At that time the claim was the auto manufacturers are functioning with manufactured support, not true economic viability. Yet here they are obviously economically viable. Why is that? According to the right wing they shouldn't be able to exist without continual government support.

I don't recall anyone saying that. Got a cite?

And you may have noticed the austerity measures imposed on the auto vompanies which were bailed out.

Greece's economy is in a serious depression. How are further cuts in government spending going to fix the problem?

Too much government spending got them into the depression. How is more going to get them out?

And in this country during the depression in the early 30s government spending was indeed successful in turning things around. The right wing ideologues simply deny that fact and spout apologetic reasons why their ideology is better and the economic facts for which we have evidence are not true.

Actually getting off the gold standard is what finally turned things around. Government spending can help, but it's not even possible while remaining stuck to the supply of gold.

But what does this have to do with Greece? Greece's problems were caused by too much government spending. Greece can't make the payments on the money they already boirrowed, and you think anyone's going to let them borrow more without conditions? Once again, you seem to think German and other taxpayers in the Euro zone should sacrafice so the Greeks don't have to take responsibility for the crisis they created for themselves.

And if that's not your solution, what exactly is your solution?

 

[WildCat]

I'd say that the political class, when it loses its fear of the people, will stop serving them and will try to rule them. It might be good now and again for the political class to be made aware that they are in their seats at the sufferance of the people, and are there to serve ... which I suspect the Greek politicians aren't particularly good at, though I am not sure where on the "in it for themselves" scale the Greeks compare to their American counterparts.

Stay safe. Thanks for the eyewitness report.

It seems to me that the political class gave the voters exactly what they demanded - lots of ponies and no enforcement of tax laws. Now the Greeks are burning the place down because the supply of ponies has run out.

 

[AlBell]

At worst it will bring much needed construction and shop refitting work to a strugging economy.

To be paid for by adding to the current debt?

ps. Thanks El Greco; stay safe.

 

[AlBell]

How does that happen? Describe the procedure in which US government debt can be "called in".

Current and potential debt-holders refuse to refinance at other than usurious terms would be one way.

We'd have to see the actual existing agreements to see if other remedy provisions (like failure to make a scheduled payment) are available.

 

[AlBell]

As I said, this discussion has been done thousands and millions of times. I could present you with a lot of papers on what exactly could be done. The point of this thread IS NOT THAT.

Let me say it once again because you may find it difficult to grasp it: With the current corrupt politicians NOTHING can be done.

Something will be done; either soon via default and print drachmas, or more slowly w/ refinancing... still likely to end in default.

I hope you get it now. But I don't think you will.

We feel your current pain, and recognize the US is rapidly approaching the same problems.

I suspect riots in the streets will be involved here too.

 

[joesixpack]

The assertion that the Greek economy is a wreck because the Greek cheat on their taxes is ridiculous. If Greece in anything like the US, the drop in tax revenues has a lot more to do with the wealthiest members of society granting themselves giant tax cuts for the past three decades.

As with every country in fiscal straits, "austerity" is offered to those who already face actual austerity, not those who control the bulk of the nations wealth.

 

[Architect]

And do we have anything to back up our little assertion, or are we just arguing from incredulity? Likewise, who said that the Greeks were purely up the spout because of their endemic tax evasion problems?

 

[Luciana]

Greco: traditionally, a few users will always use their complex of superiority to dictate what people in other countries should do, while hinting or pointing out that it's all their fault, for not being industrious/prescient/ethical/hardworking enough. Or simply morons. Well, it's always wise to ignore those.

I feel for the Greek people. The situation Greece is in has been brewing for decades, and once the crisis hit, Europe's indecisiveness has only added to the tragedy. Germany can't decide for Greece's expulsion, so it will only demand the impossible until the decision is already made. Greece can remain bleeding in the meantime.

Of all the bad things that could happen, readopting the drachma could be the best outcome. That would mean that Greece would be able to devaluate its currency at will. And that would boost exports and attract tourism. This could work long enough to revive the economy, up to a point where appreciation went back to being desirable. Also, defaulting isn't that bad. Argentina did that many years ago, its GDP dropped 15 points in a year, and yet its economy has reemerged, partly thanks to the Brazilians who swamped the country and shopped till they dropped. Let's face it: Greece can't pay its debts. Fiscal austerity will only worsen the riots on the streets.

That's my humble opinion, I'm not dictating anything. Though, if Greece were ultracheap, I'd be the first to buy a plane ticket and then a ferry boat ticket.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
That's my humble opinion, I'm not dictating anything. Though, if Greece were ultracheap, I'd be the first to buy a plane ticket and then a ferry boat ticket.

More than once I've taken advantage of some economic crisis that resulted in devaluing of currency making it a great deal for foreign travelers.

 

[Weird Science]

Greco: traditionally, a few users will always use their complex of superiority to dictate what people in other countries should do, while hinting or pointing out that it's all their fault, for not being industrious/prescient/ethical/hardworking enough.

Because, after all, what other POSSIBLE reason would someone have to point out that people who took loans they cannot afford to pay back for decades had done something wrong, apart from a superiority complex?

I feel for the Greek people. The situation Greece is in has been brewing for decades, and once the crisis hit, Europe's indecisiveness has only added to the tragedy. Germany can't decide for Greece's expulsion, so it will only demand the impossible until the decision is already made. Greece can remain bleeding in the meantime.

Because this is so much more efficient for dealing with the Greek situaiton: teary-eyed emotionalism to show how much you feel and care -- or publicly pretend to feel and care -- about them.

Notice also the passive use of "the situation has been brewing for decades" -- as if "the situation" in Greece was a natural calamity, like a hurricane or a tsunami, which was "brewing" all on its own.

In fact "the situation" is the Greeks living beyond their means for decades, in a folie a deux berween the people, who pressed for goodies they cannot afford, and the politicians, who gave them the goodies while deliberately hiding how much they cost in terms of loans; and, lest we forget, the lenders who were so happy to lend so much so easily, knowing full well it will probably lead to default eventually.

That was indeed "brewing for decades", but the brewers were the Greeks themselves and their lenders.