A first-hand account of tonight's demonstration in Athens

[Architect]

There is much deception in the world.

Well that's what happens when profit's your only goal.

 

[Weird Science]

For years and years, the US financed its massive public spending by incontinent borrowing. This was done by the politicians -- but with the full consent of the people who elected them to continue precisely this policy, indeed with riots and strikes and threats against any government that dared to try and change it.

Alas, that is quite true. China WILL own the USA if things go on like this. Europe is a warning sign: its socialist economy is going over a cliff, due to unaffordable costs.

 

[Roadtoad]

Sibhse a tha og agus saor
Stad mas cur sibh ainm ri paipear
Is cum a mach suil 'son nan daoine mora
An saoghal fuar tha ag adhradh airgead
O cho meallt is a tha an saoghal


Translations on request.

Requested.

I'm an Enya fan, but that eludes me.

 

[JihadJane]

Alas, that is quite true. China WILL own the USA if things go on like this. Europe is a warning sign: its socialist economy is going over a cliff, due to unaffordable costs.

Meanwhile, in fwee-market USA, the economy is thriving due to lack of bail-outs and no government stimulus!

 

[WildCat]

The rest of the world could stop purchasing our new IOUs and stop extending us additional credit. The effect on world markets would be staggering. I don't know if we would recover.

So what new IOUs will they buy instead?

Threatening the US with that scenario, China and other major lenders to the US could exercise a great deal of power if they chose. The concessions that they could wring out of the US government wouldn't stave off collapse for long, but long enough for an administration. The US would shout defiantly while obeying.

If there weren't enough takers for US debt at any given price point wouldn't it just be sold at a lower price until there's enough takers? At best, China could push the interest rate slightly higher.

But once again, whose debt will China buy instead?

The US is more of an aging, hollow oak that it pretends to be.

So then you join the list of doomsday prophets whose predictions don't come true.

 

[Wolfman]

And I am also totally engrossed by the ease with which many people say things about the Greeks (or whatever nation, for that matter) and appear CERTAIN that they know what should be done. I've been in a few countries, some of them poor African ones, with problems much greater than Greece's and it only takes a little discussion with the locals in order to realize that nothing is too simple and that no matter what we may think from our couches far away, things are completely different when one gets there. Of course, all those who are so certain about why things are the way they are and about what should be done, are simply morons (again).

El Greco,

I appreciate all of that. You are correct...I am not Greek, and don't have an intimate understanding of the situation there.

That is why I asked a question -- a question that you failed/refused to answer. Here it is again:

Present to me any option on which you think the majority of the Greek people would agree, if presented with the option of an election or a referendum. By that, I mean an option that enough Greeks would be unified in the decision so that the gov't could actually follow through on it effectively, and take action.

I have Greek friends here with whom I've had a similar debate. They go on and on about how terrible/undemocratic this thing is. But when I ask this question, they are entirely unable to answer it, and in fact the moment one of them suggests a possible answer, the others immediately disagree.

Thus, I stick with my contention -- that some kind of action, taken immediately, is better than continued non-action as the Greek populace demands their democratic right to argue endlessly about how to put the fire out, while the house is burning around them.

 

[geni]

But once again, whose debt will China buy instead?

There are other things they can buy. Mineral extraction rights for example.

 

[3point14]

You know, from the outside looking in, it really does look like the Greeks have just had their country nicked by the financiers.

It looks just like loan sharking on a massive scale.

 

[3point14]

El Greco,

I appreciate all of that. You are correct...I am not Greek, and don't have an intimate understanding of the situation there.

That is why I asked a question -- a question that you failed/refused to answer. Here it is again:
I have Greek friends here with whom I've had a similar debate. They go on and on about how terrible/undemocratic this thing is. But when I ask this question, they are entirely unable to answer it, and in fact the moment one of them suggests a possible answer, the others immediately disagree.

Thus, I stick with my contention -- that some kind of action, taken immediately, is better than continued non-action as the Greek populace demands their democratic right to argue endlessly about how to put the fire out, while the house is burning around them.

I have to say that if you ask any question of any electorate at any time you won't get much of a consensus. Your criticism is valid of any democratic decision anywhere at any time, it is not unique to Greece, the Greeks or this situation.

 

[WildCat]

There are other things they can buy. Mineral extraction rights for example.

I really doubt that "mineral extraction rights" are a substitute for US government bonds. And they'd have to outbid everyone else for them.

 

[WildCat]

You know, from the outside looking in, it really does look like the Greeks have just had their country nicked by the financiers Greeks.

Fixed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

"Real Despair" Sweeps Through Greece as Severe Austerity Measures Demanded by E.U.-IMF Cripple Nation

MARIA MARGARONIS: ... Greece is in an extremely difficult situation. It’s been set this impossible choice by the European Union, the European Central Bank and the IMF, which is either to default on its loans by March, when it owes a massive loan payment, or to accept this desperate austerity program, which will further sink the economy, which has been in recession now for five years and is really now in a deep depression. As you said, it involves a 22 percent cut to the minimum wage. It involves laying off not 15,000, but 150,000 public sector workers by 2016, and many other changes.

And the Greek people have really had enough of this. People are exhausted and desperate. On the street in Athens, there’s a sense of everything breaking down. A lot of stores have closed. The ones that are open all have 50 percent sales on. You see people looking through garbage for something to eat. Homelessness has increased horrendously, so that where in the past you would only see recent immigrants queuing at homeless shelters, now many Greeks who were formerly middle-class people with good jobs and laptops and cars and so on—you know, the full middle-class lifestyle—are finding themselves out on the streets....

... when you lose your job in Greece, you also lose your healthcare, so that, for example, last week I went to see a clinic that’s been set up by the Athens Doctors Association to treat people who have lost their healthcare in that way and which is being staffed by unemployed doctors. Some doctors who are working, they’re volunteering, but also young doctors who have graduated but, because there’s a complete freeze on hiring in the public sector, can’t get a job in the public health system. ... a number of families are now not vaccinating their children because they can’t afford to pay for the vaccines. So, we’re on the verge of a health disaster in Greece, as well....

...The protests are also a complex scene, because what you see on the street in Athens, both in October and now in—on Sunday, is a complete cross-section of people from all walks of life, all ages—pensioners, working people, unemployed people, students, everybody. There’s also the large group now of hooded black-clad protesters who also are a complex scene. There’s a quite a strong anarchist movement in Greece. Some of them belong to the more violent tendencies of that. There’s also some far-right involvement, possibly. And a lot of people are certain that there are some of these protesters who actually are working with the police to cause trouble. So, a huge demonstration of, I would say, well over 100,000 people in Athens on Sunday....

...austerity isn’t working, is never going to work, and that the plan that they’ve now set in motion is only going to lead Greece to default further on down the line.

... AMY GOODMAN: And the effect on Europe? Moody’s Service cut the debt ratings of six European nations on Monday, including Italy, Spain and Portugal—the outlooks.

MARIA MARGARONIS: Right. Well, I think what the troika are trying to do is put a firewall around Greece and somehow cauterize the problem. But I don’t think this is going to work, because I think it’s very clear now that this is a pan-European problem and its root causes are the financial crisis that began in 2008 and also the structural problems in the eurozone, where there was no—there was no policy put in place to deal with profound inequalities between the northern and the southern countries. [/quote]It's an excellent interview. I'll be looking for the The Nation article the reporter is writing.

As for the extreme austerity not working, I'm watching the incessant political pundits on the US telly right now discussing Romney (one of the right wing candidates) claiming the Detroit auto industry would be better off now if they hadn't got the bailout. In 2008 Romney claimed that we should let the mortgage foreclosures all go through, the rich could buy up all the devalued houses and rent them back to the then evicted former homeowners. And Romney believes the Detroit auto manufacturers should have been allowed to fail presumably because there would be a better outcome if market forces were allowed to function rather than government interventions.

So, compare the fate of the auto manufacturers who were bailed out, to the depression and breakdown of Greek society today and explain how the IMF, the EU and the ECB are making good decisions here. The evidence does not support right wing free market ideologies. How will the EU be better off if Greek society breaks down?

There but for the grace of a Progressive economic policy goes this country.

 

[Architect]

there was no policy put in place to deal with profound inequalities between the northern and the southern countries

When I first went to Greece - the undeveloped south of Crete - circa 1992/3, this was still clearly a very poor country in comparison to (say) the UK or other northern states, although I do not suggest that the rural backlands are necessarily representative of the whole of the country.

I visited again some 8 or 9 years later and there was a massive difference. EU money had been pumped into the economy with new infrastructure projects clearly visible. The general standard of living appeared to have improved hugely.

Of course this happened in the UK during the first part of the 20th century. The difference was perhaps the pace. I've not checked economic data but there was a series of huge programmes during the inter and post war periods pushed forward in conjunction with the likes of social welfare programmes. Even then, there was crippling poverty in areas such as Glasgow right through to the mid 1980s. Some would argue there still is, although I might comment on the relative measure of same.

What I find myself speculating on is the difference in the speed of the change. Europe pumped massive amounts of money into the likes of Greece and Portugal, but did the national governments then try to run when they should have walked? Did they try to do too much too soon, effectively living beyond their means rather than taking the more long-term, natural economic evolution seen in the northern states?

I don't think that this mitigates the blame of the Greek leaders, some parts of the Greek population, or the EU watchdogs who stood and let it all happen - in effect, I'd suggest the first 2 were having delusions of grandeur, having effectively been let loose with Daddy's credit card - but it might help explain it all a bit more.

 

[WildCat]

"So, compare the fate of the auto manufacturers who were bailed out, to the depression and breakdown of Greek society today and explain how the IMF, the EU and the ECB are making good decisions here. The evidence does not support right wing free market ideologies. How will the EU be better off if Greek society breaks down?

There but for the grace of a Progressive economic policy goes this country.

I'm not seeing why you think the auto industry and Greece are analogous? If GM and Chrysler hadn't been bailed out they would have been bought out by some other company (in fact Fiat bought Chrysler anyway).

Just what do you think should be done with Greece? Do you think Germans should delay their retirements and pay higher taxes so Greeks can retire at 55 and not pay their taxes? What solution do you prefer?

The Greeks have no one to blame but themselves for their predicament.

 

[Caper]

Is Greece just the canary in the coal mine? Is this going to keep happening. I'm from Canada. Is this going to happen here?

 

[WildCat]

Is Greece just the canary in the coal mine? Is this going to keep happening. I'm from Canada. Is this going to happen here?

Are Canadian politicians massively corrupt? Is not paying taxes and having the government look the other way standard practice in Canada? Does Canada greatly underfund government pensions? Does Canada have a bloated government payroll? Does Canada promise benefits far beyond their means to pay for them?

If you answered "yes" to these questions Greece's fate may be your future.

Although as a resident of Illinois I can answer "yes" to all of these questions except the one about tax avoidance if I substitute "Illinois" for "Canada"...

 

[GlennB]

Are Canadian politicians massively corrupt? Is not paying taxes and having the government look the other way standard practice in Canada? Does Canada greatly underfund government pensions? Does Canada have a bloated government payroll? Does Canada promise benefits far beyond their means to pay for them?

If you answered "yes" to these questions Greece's fate may be your future.

Although as a resident of Illinois I can answer "yes" to all of these questions except the one about tax avoidance if I substitute "Illinois" for "Canada"...

Bingo. Greece just got there first.

 

[GlennB]

... when you lose your job in Greece, you also lose your healthcare, so that, for example, last week I went to see a clinic that’s been set up by the Athens Doctors Association to treat people who have lost their healthcare in that way .

I don't think so, and certainly not automatically. Not if you're a Greek citizen or have residency rights or still within the EHIC (reciprocal EU medical treatment) 2-year limit.

I strongly suspect the comment by 'Maria' only relates to those outside the qualifications I outlined above.

 

[WildCat]

I don't think so, and certainly not automatically. Not if you're a Greek citizen or have residency rights or still within the EHIC (reciprocal EU medical treatment) 2-year limit.

I strongly suspect the comment by 'Maria' only relates to those outside the qualifications I outlined above.

I dont get it either, this caught my eye:

when you lose your job in Greece, you also lose your healthcare...

...young doctors who have graduated but, because there’s a complete freeze on hiring in the public sector, can’t get a job in the public health system

 

[GlennB]

I dont get it either, this caught my eye:

This the second time we have agreed, WildCat. People will start talking