A first-hand account of tonight's demonstration in Athens

[Wolfman]

El Greco,

I appreciate your sentiments...however, my perspective is somewhat different.

The problems today aren't because of the current gov't, whether it is a dictatorship or not. It is the result of decades of disastrous policies that pandered to the Greek electorate -- the same Greeks who are now rioting in the streets. It is those people who put their leaders in power; it is those people who supported those leaders in making financial policies that, in the short-term, made people happy -- but that in the long-term, were disastrous.

I'll be quite frank with you. I think that if it were left up to the Greek people to decide, the situation would get far worse. A referendum? There's no way that different segments of society would come to any kind of consensus on what should be done. The only result would be further delay of badly needed decisions.

Your country needs action. It needs actions that are inevitably going to be painful and unpopular to the Greek people, but they are necessary because of decades of bad decisions made by their leaders and supported by them. And given what I've seen of the democratic process in Greece, if it were left to the people to decide -- that is, enough of a majority of the Greek people all agreeing on one policy, so that it could actually be enacted and enforced in Greece -- we'd be looking at a wait of years before anything was done.

Yeah, your leaders are acting like dictators. They're doing so because, right now, it is the only way that anything is going to get done. They're doing it because decades of disastrous decisions -- focusing on short-term policies to pander to the electorate rather than long-term policies that would actually benefit the nation -- have left Greece in a position where there are absolutely no effective answers that are going to make the Greek people happy.

Sure, put it to a democratic vote. You'll have Greeks screaming for at least twenty different options, entirely unable to agree on any one specific course of action. You'll have chaos, with no reasonable hope of resolution. You'll have a situation that will not only fail to resolve any problems, but that will just see the current crisis get even worse.

I'm sure you'll disagree...so present to me any option on which you think the majority of the Greek people would agree, if presented with the option of an election or a referendum. By that, I mean an option that enough Greeks would be unified in the decision so that the gov't could actually follow through on it effectively, and take action. "Leave the EU" or "Join the EU" don't suffice, as each of those options still requires numerous other decisions (cutting back on jobs, social welfare, public spending, and all sorts of other such things, on which I don't think the Greeks would ever be able to reach consensus).

 

[richardm]

it's the breaking things up that annoys me. It's completely counter-productive.

At worst it will bring much needed construction and shop refitting work to a strugging economy.

Your country needs action.

Thing is that the action that was under debate was whether to saddle the Greek economy with debt that it incurs only by promising to make poor people poorer - and that done in order, so it is perceived, in order to help other economies, notably Germany.

Oddly enough this doesn't seem to be a very popular policy, I can't imagine why.

I guess the alternative is to default on the debt, walk away and start again. It would be interesting to see how that would work out; I suspect that we're going to find out at some point, since at the end of it, this bailout probably won't actually help in the long run anyway.

Anyway; the vote is in and the Greek government has ignored the apparent will of its citizens and signed them up to a life of penury. I hope the citizens don't trash the place too badly as a result. Take care, El Greco.

 

[Wolfman]

Thing is that the action that was under debate was whether to saddle the Greek economy with debt that it incurs only by promising to make poor people poorer - and that done in order, so it is perceived, in order to help other economies, notably Germany.

Oddly enough this doesn't seem to be a very popular policy, I can't imagine why.

Very true.

I haven't seen anyone suggest a viable solution that won't have an equal or worse impact. It's easy to say, "We don't like that, it hurts us"...not so easy to propose solutions that offer a better result.

Defaulting on their debts, leaving the EU...I'm sure that there's a lot of emotional support for such a concept. But on a practical level, this would hurt those poor people much more than the current measures being proposed.

It's all emotional argument. It's easier to blame other countries, and their nefarious, selfish goals, than to accept that this is their own fault. It's easier to focus on the selfishness of other countries (who are trying to avoid having their own economies further damaged by disastrous Greek financial policies), than to focus on their own selfishness that got them into this situation in the first place.

I'm sure that, if I were there, my perspective would be different...it would be affected by my emotional reaction to seeing friends and families losing jobs, losing homes, etc. That's inevitable.

But just cuz they're angry doesn't make them right. Show me -- or better, the EU -- a solution that is better than what's currently on the table, and yeah, we can discuss that.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I am not sure what the cause of the crisis was, but this seems like a good overview:

The list of potential culprits is long. Not surprisingly the alleged greed of Greek workers and the laxness of the Greek authorities are among the favourites. Financial speculators and the credit-rating agencies are also near the top. Then there is the prevarication of the European authorities and particularly the German government. Even ordinary Germans have come under attack in the British media for being too concerned about their own prosperity to bail out Greece.

All of this resembles a playground game of ‘It’ rather than an attempt to grapple seriously with the crisis. Beyond the ritual denunciations of Greece, and other southern European states, for allowing public spending to surge, there is little discussion of economics. The possibility of a relationship between the state of the real economy and the financial crisis does not even seem to occur to most commentators.

Linky.

Stay safe.

 

[richardm]

Show me -- or better, the EU -- a solution that is better than what's currently on the table, and yeah, we can discuss that.

What would happen if they defaulted that would be worse in the long term than what their government has signed up to? Things wouldn't get better any quicker but at least there would be a sense that it wasn't being done for anyone else's benefit.

 

[Wolfman]

What would happen if they defaulted that would be worse in the long term than what their government has signed up to? Things wouldn't get better any quicker but at least there would be a sense that it wasn't being done for anyone else's benefit.

Well, let's see:

* booted out of the EU, and entirely bankrupt
* Loss of Euro as a national currency (since no longer in the EU)...have to create and print their own currency, which will have a far, far lower value than the Euro, and be much less stable (having no backing other than that of a bankrupt gov't)
* Little or no access to loans to rebuild the country
* Loss of even more jobs as other EU companies ceased doing business with or investing in Greece

That's just off the top of my head. Greece is bankrupt, but using a currency that has a value based on more than Greece's economic performance, and has access to loans that can help it recover. It's bad right now...but it could be much, much worse.

 

[GlennB]

Defaulting on their debts, leaving the EU...I'm sure that there's a lot of emotional support for such a concept. But on a practical level, this would hurt those poor people much more than the current measures being proposed.

Hurt them more in the short term, quite possibly. But in the medium-to-long term they would benefit by being able to (somewhat) control the value of the Drachma. Greece would once again become a cheap holiday destination, Greek products would become a relative bargain, etc.

Elsewhere here I've ventured the opinion that little Greece is the sacrificial lamb in this business, and for now I stick with that opinion. It's seen as disposable while the other Eurozone countries pursue different, and much bigger, interests.

As a side-note I really don't see a lot of German tourists coming down here this summer, and the German contribution to the Greek tourist industry is traditionally high.

 

[JJM 777]

Destroying property is going to help their economy...

Destroying property drives up the GNP, because someone must repair it, which adds to the economy.

Yep, the GNP measures production and gains only, not destruction and other losses. A bit like counting all the plusses and ignoring all the minuses. At least the figure will look big.

 

[bigred]

El Greco,

I appreciate your sentiments...however, my perspective is somewhat different.

The problems today aren't because of the current gov't, whether it is a dictatorship or not. It is the result of decades of disastrous policies that pandered to the Greek electorate -- the same Greeks who are now rioting in the streets. It is those people who put their leaders in power; it is those people who supported those leaders in making financial policies that, in the short-term, made people happy -- but that in the long-term, were disastrous.

I'll be quite frank with you. I think that if it were left up to the Greek people to decide, the situation would get far worse. A referendum? There's no way that different segments of society would come to any kind of consensus on what should be done. The only result would be further delay of badly needed decisions.

Your country needs action. It needs actions that are inevitably going to be painful and unpopular to the Greek people, but they are necessary because of decades of bad decisions made by their leaders and supported by them. And given what I've seen of the democratic process in Greece, if it were left to the people to decide -- that is, enough of a majority of the Greek people all agreeing on one policy, so that it could actually be enacted and enforced in Greece -- we'd be looking at a wait of years before anything was done.

Yeah, your leaders are acting like dictators. They're doing so because, right now, it is the only way that anything is going to get done. They're doing it because decades of disastrous decisions -- focusing on short-term policies to pander to the electorate rather than long-term policies that would actually benefit the nation -- have left Greece in a position where there are absolutely no effective answers that are going to make the Greek people happy.

Sure, put it to a democratic vote. You'll have Greeks screaming for at least twenty different options, entirely unable to agree on any one specific course of action. You'll have chaos, with no reasonable hope of resolution. You'll have a situation that will not only fail to resolve any problems, but that will just see the current crisis get even worse.

I'm sure you'll disagree...so present to me any option on which you think the majority of the Greek people would agree, if presented with the option of an election or a referendum. By that, I mean an option that enough Greeks would be unified in the decision so that the gov't could actually follow through on it effectively, and take action. "Leave the EU" or "Join the EU" don't suffice, as each of those options still requires numerous other decisions (cutting back on jobs, social welfare, public spending, and all sorts of other such things, on which I don't think the Greeks would ever be able to reach consensus).

From what I've heard/read, this is by far the best post and recap of the situation. All the "common man" pointing fingers elsewhere are full of it.

Are baby nukes an option?

 

[El Greco]

This thread quickly evolves into another of countless discussions about what should be better for Greece/Eurozone/Euro etc. Mostly coming from people who know nothing about the subjects, but this is usual. My point here was different:

The measures that were voted are extremely serious for the future of the country, and totally contrary to what the politicians were saying before the elections. As such, they should only be brought in for voting AFTER elections or a referendum. The fact that whatever the spineless morons we have for politicians do is legal, is completely irrelevant. THEY get to decide what is legal and what is not, changing the laws and ignoring the constitution on their way (even the Constitutional Committee of the Parliament said that several articles of what was voted yesterday were anti-constitutional). Whether you think that A should be done, B is stupid and so on, it is totally irrelevant to the point. And whoever doesn't see this, is simply a moron.

 

[El Greco]

El Greco,

I appreciate your sentiments...however, my perspective is somewhat different.

The problems today aren't because of the current gov't, whether it is a dictatorship or not. It is the result of decades of disastrous policies that pandered to the Greek electorate -- the same Greeks who are now rioting in the streets. It is those people who put their leaders in power; it is those people who supported those leaders in making financial policies that, in the short-term, made people happy -- but that in the long-term, were disastrous.

I'll be quite frank with you. I think that if it were left up to the Greek people to decide, the situation would get far worse. A referendum? There's no way that different segments of society would come to any kind of consensus on what should be done. The only result would be further delay of badly needed decisions.

Your country needs action. It needs actions that are inevitably going to be painful and unpopular to the Greek people, but they are necessary because of decades of bad decisions made by their leaders and supported by them. And given what I've seen of the democratic process in Greece, if it were left to the people to decide -- that is, enough of a majority of the Greek people all agreeing on one policy, so that it could actually be enacted and enforced in Greece -- we'd be looking at a wait of years before anything was done.

Yeah, your leaders are acting like dictators. They're doing so because, right now, it is the only way that anything is going to get done. They're doing it because decades of disastrous decisions -- focusing on short-term policies to pander to the electorate rather than long-term policies that would actually benefit the nation -- have left Greece in a position where there are absolutely no effective answers that are going to make the Greek people happy.

Sure, put it to a democratic vote. You'll have Greeks screaming for at least twenty different options, entirely unable to agree on any one specific course of action. You'll have chaos, with no reasonable hope of resolution. You'll have a situation that will not only fail to resolve any problems, but that will just see the current crisis get even worse.

I'm sure you'll disagree...so present to me any option on which you think the majority of the Greek people would agree, if presented with the option of an election or a referendum. By that, I mean an option that enough Greeks would be unified in the decision so that the gov't could actually follow through on it effectively, and take action. "Leave the EU" or "Join the EU" don't suffice, as each of those options still requires numerous other decisions (cutting back on jobs, social welfare, public spending, and all sorts of other such things, on which I don't think the Greeks would ever be able to reach consensus).

Sorry, but you are another one who has zero idea about what's happening here. We are not talking about some NEW leaders. We are talking about the EXACT SAME PERSONS who brought the country into this situation. True, the Greek morons elected them. But this does not make them any more appropriate to "save the country". They destroyed it themselves.

According to parliament reporters, while all the critical sections of the new measures were being discussed last night, many members of the Parliament were in the Parliament cafe watching soccer, others were eating in their offices and still others were joking and making noise in the parliament hall (camera caught many such moments). In the end, they all applaused as if it was some kind of show. Which it was, of course.

And I am also totally engrossed by the ease with which many people say things about the Greeks (or whatever nation, for that matter) and appear CERTAIN that they know what should be done. I've been in a few countries, some of them poor African ones, with problems much greater than Greece's and it only takes a little discussion with the locals in order to realize that nothing is too simple and that no matter what we may think from our couches far away, things are completely different when one gets there. Of course, all those who are so certain about why things are the way they are and about what should be done, are simply morons (again).

 

[WildCat]

A colourful analogy.
Do you have any idea of how accurate it is?

My best guess is that a bankruptcy and return to drackmer would be no worse for the Greeks than the current measures.
And it would be over with within a year or two.

I think it would be catastrophic. Will the drachma be accepted for international trade? Will Greece be able to control the urge to just print more money?

A return to the drachma and hyperinflation will be far worse for Greeks IMHO. I don't think the same politicians/parties who got Greece into the mess it's in have the discipline to manage their own currency, especially if priority #1 is placating the rioters.

People always use Argentina as an example of emerging from bankruptcy, but Argentina has an enormous and thriving agricultural export industry. Greece has nothing comparable.

 

[Toke]

(To post #70)

Sorry about that, I see there is at least one thread on the subject.

You have a point on how EU questions all over Europe tends to be decided without bothering with what the population would want.

 

[WildCat]

Hurt them more in the short term, quite possibly. But in the medium-to-long term they would benefit by being able to (somewhat) control the value of the Drachma. Greece would once again become a cheap holiday destination, Greek products would become a relative bargain, etc.

Show me a cheap holiday destination and bargain imports and I'll show you a poor country.

As a side-note I really don't see a lot of German tourists coming down here this summer, and the German contribution to the Greek tourist industry is traditionally high.

I can't imagine tourists from anywhere are flocking to Greece with all the rioting going on. And foreigners will be even more reluctant to travel to Greece if they are scapegoated for causing Greece's economic problems.

And I'm at a loss to explain why Greeks think German taxpayers should be their sugar daddy. They have their own economy to worry about, and haven't been crazy irresponsible like the Greeks have been.

 

[El Greco]

I'm sure you'll disagree...so present to me any option on which you think the majority of the Greek people would agree, if presented with the option of an election or a referendum. By that, I mean an option that enough Greeks would be unified in the decision so that the gov't could actually follow through on it effectively, and take action. "Leave the EU" or "Join the EU" don't suffice, as each of those options still requires numerous other decisions (cutting back on jobs, social welfare, public spending, and all sorts of other such things, on which I don't think the Greeks would ever be able to reach consensus).

I'll give you a recent example, just so that you can see what's the situation here:

Here is what happened on Dec 28: http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/51853

Here is the resolution on Jan 19: http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/52432

The prosecutors magically forgot all about "interference" and withdrew their resignations.

Those are the people who are supposed to fight financial crimes.

 

[WildCat]

Sorry, but you are another one who has zero idea about what's happening here. We are not talking about some NEW leaders. We are talking about the EXACT SAME PERSONS who brought the country into this situation. True, the Greek morons elected them. But this does not make them any more appropriate to "save the country". They destroyed it themselves.

According to parliament reporters, while all the critical sections of the new measures were being discussed last night, many members of the Parliament were in the Parliament cafe watching soccer, others were eating in their offices and still others were joking and making noise in the parliament hall (camera caught many such moments). In the end, they all applaused as if it was some kind of show. Which it was, of course.

And I am also totally engrossed by the ease with which many people say things about the Greeks (or whatever nation, for that matter) and appear CERTAIN that they know what should be done. I've been in a few countries, some of them poor African ones, with problems much greater than Greece's and it only takes a little discussion with the locals in order to realize that nothing is too simple and that no matter what we may think from our couches far away, things are completely different when one gets there. Of course, all those who are so certain about why things are the way they are and about what should be done, are simply morons (again).

Do you have a less painful way out of the mess? I see lots of anger from you, but no solutions. As Wolfman noted your current situation is the result of decades of politicians giving voters what they want without any thought about how to pay for all the goodies. Your "solution" seems to be to elect different politicians, but you don't say what you think these politicians should do once in office.

 

[El Greco]

And I'm at a loss to explain why Greeks think German taxpayers should be their sugar daddy. They have their own economy to worry about, and haven't been crazy irresponsible like the Greeks have been.

Do you play stupid here ? Do you think actually Germany is GIVING AWAY money to Greece ? Is this the kind of "information" you get ?

 

[WildCat]

I'll give you a recent example, just so that you can see what's the situation here:

Here is what happened on Dec 28: http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/51853

Here is the resolution on Jan 19: http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/52432

The prosecutors magically forgot all about "interference" and withdrew their resignations.

Those are the people who are supposed to fight financial crimes.

Did foreigners elect all those corrupt Greek politicians into power?

 

[WildCat]

Do you play stupid here ? Do you think actually Germany is GIVING AWAY money to Greece ? Is this the kind of "information" you get ?

Of course they won't, but isn't that what the rioters are demanding?

 

[El Greco]

Do you have a less painful way out of the mess? I see lots of anger from you, but no solutions. As Wolfman noted your current situation is the result of decades of politicians giving voters what they want without any thought about how to pay for all the goodies. Your "solution" seems to be to elect different politicians, but you don't say what you think these politicians should do once in office.

As I said, this discussion has been done thousands and millions of times. I could present you with a lot of papers on what exactly could be done. The point of this thread IS NOT THAT.

Let me say it once again because you may find it difficult to grasp it: With the current corrupt politicians NOTHING can be done.

I hope you get it now. But I don't think you will.