A Challenge for Oliver: This is America

[Zep]

Athiest, seriously, are those genuine comments from that other board? In more or less correct context?

 

[The Atheist]

Athiest, seriously, are those genuine comments from that other board? In more or less correct context?

I'd like to think I haven't been too harsh with the editing of them: as I noted, they are verbatim, typos included. They were in context of threads on Iran and Iraq, so yes, I think they give fair representation of how those people think.

I'm so convinced the feelings are genuine that I've just posted my goodbyes over there - can't be bothered with people who think like that, personally.

 

[Hokulele]

Well, based on this post TA, I am not sure then if that truly represents lots of Americans. To me, that sounds like one of those message boards like the September 11 Conspiracy Theory sites that attracts paranoiacs at a rate much higher than what is seen in the general population. I can see why you wouldn't want to post there, I've seen enough of that kind of nutbar-ism in the CT sub-forum on this board. I can't imagine wandering into an entire board of them!

 

[RandFan]

Boy we yanks must really be brainwashed. I'm not really sure what is wrong with all of the posts. BTW, Americans are hardly the only people who post with typos.

Atheist, we are derailing the thread. I would like to invite you to start another thread with those post and tell us what you think is wrong with them. I will sincerly consider your arguments. I'm not trying to get in a debate I'm just a bit confused.

Thanks,

RandFan

 

[The Atheist]

I'm not sure how you get around a profound lack of critical thinking and ignorance.

Jesus, mate, where have you been for the past 2000 years? Critical thinking and analysis haven't been strongpoints of humankind during that time frame, what makes you think they're going to suddenly start now?

I actually think the battle's unwinnable, but that a whole 'nuther thread. Ask me sometime.

To judge America based on the examples you provide would be to rely only on anecdotal evidence.

It would indeed, but how else do people make decisions on whether a country is "good" or "bad"? That's what this thread's about - perception of USA through the media. Well, if the media is showing a bad side, then someone goes to a forum and sees this stuff, it starts to look like a trend.

I'm not about to suggest that sample is representative of USA, because I know it isn't, but my point is that there are a hell of a lot of Americans for whom the stereotype is being used as a blueprint. See, even if only 20% of Americans think like that, you have a number far bigger than the combined populations of NZ, Australia and Canada.

It would be nice if those non-Americans who come to this forum and make that mistake would take the time to educate themselves.

Not as easily said as done sometimes. Americans, like most people, are proud of their country and lots of them see attacks against US foreign policy as attacks on the American Way and jump in to defend USA. It's one of those subjects which is hard to do dispassionately.

Sadly people see what they want to see. I think folks like Ion and Oliver have such profound enmity toward America that there is not likely much that we can do.

Again, you're about 2000 years late with the people seeing what they want bit. Why do think it's in the bible? Why do so many people "find" god and become christian? Because they're looking for it.

What the media, those posts, this thread and its related video all have in common is that they're showing what people want. I tried to explain that people didn't used to think badly of USA as a first response, in fact the opposite applied in most parts of the world. Not any more.

But what's changed that perception? US foreign policy or jealousy? I know where my money is.

 

[The Atheist]

Well, based on this post TA, I am not sure then if that truly represents lots of Americans. To me, that sounds like one of those message boards like the September 11 Conspiracy Theory sites that attracts paranoiacs at a rate much higher than what is seen in the general population. I can see why you wouldn't want to post there, I've seen enough of that kind of nutbar-ism in the CT sub-forum on this board. I can't imagine wandering into an entire board of them!

Most of them, if not all, are members here! (or are banned or suspended from here)

Classic.

(Although I must say that while they're in the majority at that forum, it doesn't apply to all.)

 

[skepHick]

I'd like to think I haven't been too harsh with the editing of them: as I noted, they are verbatim, typos included. They were in context of threads on Iran and Iraq, so yes, I think they give fair representation of how those people think.

I'm so convinced the feelings are genuine that I've just posted my goodbyes over there - can't be bothered with people who think like that, personally.

Well, I noticed you at least edited one poster's name to make it recognizable to users on this forum, as I know he goes by a different name on the other. Can't imagine why that would be necessary to make your point, in addition to wondering why you would have to cull posts from another forum to support your position. Surely you could have found posts from this forum, if lots of Americans are so "insane."

 

[The Atheist]

Boy we yanks must really be brainwashed. I'm not really sure what is wrong with all of the posts. BTW, Americans are hardly the only people who post with typos.

LOL, the typos comment was about preserving accuracy, not that there are typos in it.

I made a tyop myslef.

Once.

Atheist, we are derailing the thread. I would like to invite you to start another thread with those post and tell us what you think is wrong with them. I will sincerly consider your arguments. I'm not trying to get in a debate I'm just a bit confused.

Thanks,

RandFan

No chance of derail, I've just been arguing those points. Another day maybe.

 

[Hokulele]

Most of them, if not all, are members here! (or are banned or suspended from here)

The only name I recognized was WildCat, I really haven't been a member of this forum all that long, and I rarely post in Politics (again, I am quickly remembering why). If they have been banned or suspended from this forum, I probably have not had much, or any, interaction with them.

 

[RandFan]

Jesus, mate, where have you been for the past 2000 years? Critical thinking and analysis haven't been strongpoints of humankind during that time frame, what makes you think they're going to suddenly start now?

I don't. I'm just pointing out the problem. I'm just the messenger.

But what's changed that perception? US foreign policy or jealousy? I know where my money is.

America has been both hated and loved since it was a superpower and even before. I really don't know to what degree perceptions have changed or to what degree we are reviled. We are the sole super power. I don't know how you do that without engendering a lot of negative feelings.

The world is not monolithic.
America is not monolithic.

Those are probably the most neglected facts in all of the handwringing over America.

 

[gtc]

I'm so convinced the feelings are genuine that I've just posted my goodbyes over there - can't be bothered with people who think like that, personally.

So if enough people over here say lets bomb Iran, then you'll bugger off from here too?

 

[skeptifem]

I go along with the premise in the OP, but I think a lot of people's opinions are shaped by what they see coming from the mouths and keyboards of Americans more than what's said in the media.

A case in point. This is culled from two threads at another board. There are lots more in the same vein, but these are good and representative, you may recognise some names:



Verbatim quotes, typos included, all opinions from Americans.

Now, these people are by no means the majority opinion in USA, but they are certainly not in the minority on their own board. Anyone seeing this kind of drivel might just start to tar all Americans with the "insane" brush.

Maybe, rather than worrying about the mass media, you need to be finding out why your fellow countrymen are so badly scared that they act this way and promulgate these kinds of opinions. This is not the kind of work which will find much favour with people living in those countries these people wish to "turn into parabolic mirrors".

wooohooo! its 'lets find some objectionable stuff and post it without context" time! I guess the aim this time is to make a region of your choosing look bad.

For the flip side I guess you could just follow around oliver, danish dynamite, or claus. lol. Yeaaaah that doesnt prove much of anything to me, except the character of the named posters.

 

[Zep]

wooohooo! its 'lets find some objectionable stuff and post it without context" time! I guess the aim this time is to make a region of your choosing look bad.

For the flip side I guess you could just follow around oliver, danish dynamite, or claus. lol. Yeaaaah that doesnt prove much of anything to me, except the character of the named posters.

Seriously, I have to agree with much of what Atheist has said above, I'm afraid.

How you see yourself at home is not necessarily how you are seen outside your home. Proud patriotism in the USA is usually considered rampant jingoism in other parts of the world. Which results in the sort of quotes provided above by Athiest being seen as objectionable. They see themselves as being proud defenders of the ultimate US way of life from ANY invader. We see them as fairly mindless reactionaries, unable or unwilling to evaluate and moderate the response to the threat. Can you see why Atheist was less than impressed? I can...

I think the difference lies in your superpower status. You CAN be a belligerent bully, and repel just about any type or size of assault. So all "negotiations" and reactions to threats are from a position of supreme strength. You do not even have to seriously consider making negotiations - you CAN throw yourself around with impunity and force results as you wish.

But the rest of us, in general, cannot work like this. So we have to be far more circumspect and realistic about how we deal with threats, etc. Sometimes we have to accept the best deal we can under the circumstances, like it or not. And one of those we have to deal with from a position of inferiority is you - the USA. We are, quite literally, the remora to your whale shark.

So please think again about how those quotes sound to us who are not Americans. They are the sound of thoughtlessness, of ingrown and misplaced belligerence, of people who have little understanding just how powerful their country really is and how that is perceived.

It is worth pretending for yourself that you don't live in the USA, just to get a feel for where these views come from. It is a reason why you should travel to another country and hear what they have to say about your own. I have been surprised myself when I have done this.

See your own country through someone else's eyes...

 

[bob_kark]

Seriously, I have to agree with much of what Atheist has said above, I'm afraid...

I completely disagree. I think his post is entirely missing the point of this thread. Do we know that some Americans share the beliefs that The Athiest has quoted without any care to the context? Yes. I'm sure people across the world share these beliefs, just as there are people who believe in ghosts, aliens, a 9/11 conspiracy, etc... What a shock, some people are able to parrot the current administration's as well as the national media's rhetoric! We now have the opinions of 10 people cherry picked out of context out of 300,000 citizens.

What Hokulele was attempting to do was to give a different perspective outside the sensationalist national media and turn to local media for a more balanced perspective. He's attempting to show that not only do people have conflicting viewpoints, but that people, whose opinions actually do matter, share these viewpoints. I believe that's still a valid challenge and much more substantial than the challenge of quoting posters you don't agree with from another forum to settle some personal vendetta or to make a point that's questionable at best.

 

[Flo]

I go along with the premise in the OP, but I think a lot of people's opinions are shaped by what they see coming from the mouths and keyboards of Americans more than what's said in the media.

In part true, especially for those who mostly ignore a) what's said in the media, b) the variety in the American media.

A case in point. This is culled from two threads at another board. There are lots more in the same vein, but these are good and representative, you may recognise some names:

Verbatim quotes, typos included, all opinions from Americans.

Now, these people are by no means the majority opinion in USA, but they are certainly not in the minority on their own board. Anyone seeing this kind of drivel might just start to tar all Americans with the "insane" brush.

Anyone biased into ignoring other, more moderate or mature contributors to said threads, yes ...

Maybe, rather than worrying about the mass media, you need to be finding out why your fellow countrymen are so badly scared that they act this way and promulgate these kinds of opinions. This is not the kind of work which will find much favour with people living in those countries these people wish to "turn into parabolic mirrors".

If you care to look for them, you'll find "badly scared" people in the same vein in any country you care to name.

I think the OP is right on the money in that it asks those who are only looking to the worst side of anything American to try to balance their point of view and their opinion.

 

[fuelair]

Just in case anyone thinks Oliver just hasn't noticed this thread - I PM'd him yesterday with the site.

 

[Zep]

I completely disagree. I think his post is entirely missing the point of this thread. Do we know that some Americans share the beliefs that The Athiest has quoted without any care to the context? Yes. I'm sure people across the world share these beliefs, just as there are people who believe in ghosts, aliens, a 9/11 conspiracy, etc... What a shock, some people are able to parrot the current administration's as well as the national media's rhetoric! We now have the opinions of 10 people cherry picked out of context out of 300,000 citizens.

What Hokulele was attempting to do was to give a different perspective outside the sensationalist national media and turn to local media for a more balanced perspective. He's attempting to show that not only do people have conflicting viewpoints, but that people, whose opinions actually do matter, share these viewpoints. I believe that's still a valid challenge and much more substantial than the challenge of quoting posters you don't agree with from another forum to settle some personal vendetta or to make a point that's questionable at best.

I don't think we differ much, really. In terms of the challenge above, I'm absolutely all for it...provided Oliver takes in non-US media as well for a more rounded perspective.

Although I happen to have a long-standing (30+ years!) disdain for much of the populist media, that does not say that all media everywhere is peurile crap. That is, you really need to be VERY particular as to the standard of what you read and watch and listen to. There are some excellent commentaries from various US media that are well worth the read, just as there are accurate, thoughtful and insightful US TV and radio commentators.

However, as Hokulele rightly points out, the news in the US tends to be local. So many Americans only get to see the rest of the world filtered through local media. Which leads to a glaring disparity that is obvious to us out here, but not so obvious to those in there.

An example in point is the video in another thread that shows an Australian comedy crew taking the mickey out of ordinary Americans in the street for not knowing the relevant details of major international news events, such as where Iraq actually is. This was funny to us in Australia, but not for the reasons you may think. For a start, we don't think they are actually idiots.

What you should know is that most Australian adults can find Iraq on a map, and we do have an awareness of what is happening there. We are aware of developments in US internal politics because it affects us. We are aware of our regional neighbours, and our major trading partners, and even have an interest in Denmark. Our local news includes a lot of world news. Snow storms in New York? Reported here. Creationist "museum" opens in Kentucky? Yep, that too. Alas. But the converse: Australian news in the USA? Zero except for something like Croc Guy being killed. We are outside the USA, so we don't rate a mention inside the USA.

So the "funny" part, to us, and it is actually a wincing feeling, is to watch these Americans confirm our template view of them - that they know little about anything beyond their own town or city. This translates in other ways...to the kind of comments that Atheist quoted above. In the higher echelons, we see senior cabinet members who, until they took office that involved delicate international affairs, had never left the country...same thing, same wincing feeling. I think the term "rubes" describes how they come across.

However! The excellent thing about this forum is that the Americans here, by and large, are highly educated and are aware of the world around them and its happenings - acutely aware for the most part. Would that you guys were the people running the show. Although you may disagree politically, you are not "rubes", so we would feel much safer as a result. Even Beeps!

 

[Flo]

I don't think we differ much, really. In terms of the challenge above, I'm absolutely all for it...provided Oliver takes in non-US media as well for a more rounded perspective.

Although I happen to have a long-standing (30+ years!) disdain for much of the populist media, that does not say that all media everywhere is peurile crap. That is, you really need to be VERY particular as to the standard of what you read and watch and listen to. There are some excellent commentaries from various US media that are well worth the read, just as there are accurate, thoughtful and insightful US TV and radio commentators.

However, as Hokulele rightly points out, the news in the US tends to be local. So many Americans only get to see the rest of the world filtered through local media. Which leads to a glaring disparity that is obvious to us out here, but not so obvious to those in there.

An example in point is the video in another thread that shows an Australian comedy crew taking the mickey out of ordinary Americans in the street for not knowing the relevant details of major international news events, such as where Iraq actually is. This was funny to us in Australia, but not for the reasons you may think. For a start, we don't think they are actually idiots.

What you should know is that most Australian adults can find Iraq on a map, and we do have an awareness of what is happening there. We are aware of developments in US internal politics because it affects us. We are aware of our regional neighbours, and our major trading partners, and even have an interest in Denmark. Our local news includes a lot of world news. Snow storms in New York? Reported here. Creationist "museum" opens in Kentucky? Yep, that too. Alas. But the converse: Australian news in the USA? Zero except for something like Croc Guy being killed. We are outside the USA, so we don't rate a mention inside the USA.

So the "funny" part, to us, and it is actually a wincing feeling, is to watch these Americans confirm our template view of them - that they know little about anything beyond their own town or city. This translates in other ways...to the kind of comments that Atheist quoted above. In the higher echelons, we see senior cabinet members who, until they took office that involved delicate international affairs, had never left the country...same thing, same wincing feeling. I think the term "rubes" describes how they come across.

However! The excellent thing about this forum is that the Americans here, by and large, are highly educated and are aware of the world around them and its happenings - acutely aware for the most part. Would that you guys were the people running the show. Although you may disagree politically, you are not "rubes", so we would feel much safer as a result. Even Beeps!

Seconded, ditto, etc., etc.

 

[RandFan]

Seriously, I have to agree with much of what Atheist has said above, I'm afraid.

How you see yourself at home is not necessarily how you are seen outside your home. Proud patriotism in the USA is usually considered rampant jingoism in other parts of the world. Which results in the sort of quotes provided above by Athiest being seen as objectionable. They see themselves as being proud defenders of the ultimate US way of life from ANY invader. We see them as fairly mindless reactionaries, unable or unwilling to evaluate and moderate the response to the threat. Can you see why Atheist was less than impressed? I can...

...

See your own country through someone else's eyes...

Americans are actually just people. Like people in other parts of the world there are good and bad ones and every shade in between. There is nothing in the quotes that demonstrates any behavior or view that is any less ill-informed or jingoistic than similar people from other nations.

That being said, let's assume that every one of the quotes is ill-informed, presumptuous and arrogant. Are you honestly saying that such opinions are exclusive to Americans or that Americans are more likely to exhibit such behavior? Really? Any evidence? This is a skeptics forum. Have you done a study, controlled for your bias and come to an objective conclusion? The notion that ignorant and arrogant non-Americans are superior to ignorant and arrogant Americans is silly.

You are buying the stereotype lock stock and barrel. That we are a superpower might make us a bit more likely to be arrogant but it also makes it more likely that our warts will be reported than other nations.

 

[Hokulele]

What Hokulele was attempting to do was to give a different perspective outside the sensationalist national media and turn to local media for a more balanced perspective. He's attempting to show that not only do people have conflicting viewpoints, but that people, whose opinions actually do matter, share these viewpoints. I believe that's still a valid challenge and much more substantial than the challenge of quoting posters you don't agree with from another forum to settle some personal vendetta or to make a point that's questionable at best.

This is exactly my point, thanks for clarifying. BTW, I am a "she", but don't worry, the anonymous nature of the Internet and all that.

However, as Hokulele rightly points out, the news in the US tends to be local. So many Americans only get to see the rest of the world filtered through local media. Which leads to a glaring disparity that is obvious to us out here, but not so obvious to those in there.

Yes and no Zep. The point was to look at the news through a local filter, but not to solely focus on the local news (the bit about read all the headlines in the papers selected). Most days, the international news will be reported. Sometimes it is merely clips from the Associated Press, sometimes it will be an OpEd piece. Now, whether or not that news is read by the subscriber is a different story, but it is there.

On a side note, bob kark had included a link to the New Orleans local paper. When I originally composed my OP, I thought long and hard about including that one. The only reason I left it out was for the very reason Zep posted. I was afraid that one would be too focused on local issues, as the local issues in New Orleans tend to be very grave, even now.