9/11 Truth and Mental Health

Scott Sommers

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I'm starting this thread so as to not sidetrack Oystein's original thread about AE9/11T membership and the ReThink911 ad campaign.

I originally made this remark about the mental health of 9/11 Truthers.
I hope this isn't too off topic, but this is a really good point, and may be one of the defining properties of conspiracy theory versus social issue. I have long maintained that a meaningful portion of the street level activities for 9/11 Truth show some level of mental illness. Gage himself might not be one of these, but at least some of his organizers may be. Some of the contacts he lists on his website are involved in astrology and other 'alternative' knowledge systems. Some are also activists for right-wing political groups. Some of the activists that I have been in touch with, but not part of gage's organization have medical histories that include mental illness, drug addiction and criminal records. So you have this web of disturbed people doing the leg work convincing well-meaning philanthropists that 9/11 Truth is still alive and an issue worth supporting.

It was followed by a thoughtful reply from ergo,

Not sure I should bother answering this question after reading post #50, which demonstrates, once again, that you're neither honest nor sincere. I've never seen a violent 9/11 truth demonstration, nor have I ever seen signs of mentally disturbed action among 9/11 truthers. Most of the 9/11 truth people I've met are intelligent people who support peace and justice. You live in Taiwan, so I wonder where in fact you're witnessing these gatherings you make so many claims about. In addition, I've already shown here on this forum that there are far more disturbed and volatile people who believe in the 9/11 official story AND who act out in the name of that alleged cause. From both a logical and statistical standpoint, you're the ones whose mental health we need to be concerned about. You need to let that fact sink in.

As for your above question, of course. There are many, many architects and engineers who know something is not right with the official 9/11 story. Far more than are willing to put their names out publicly. Many of the testimonies of those who have come to sign the A&E petition talk about having first of all accepted the official story - until they actually looked into it themselves, often years later. Tony Szamboti states he doesn't know a single engineer who has honestly looked into it, who doesn't ultimately acknowledge there's a problem. The problem is, like most people, most A & E's haven't, and the ongoing campaign to discredit such inquiries does scare people off, as it does me at times.

Nevertheless, I am continually shocked at the numbers of people who still have never heard of WTC 7, or what happened to it that day, including someone I thought I knew quite well, as I discovered last month. So this is clearly an area that needs public awareness. Even if people are willing to believe, or at least not question (because they don't think they are qualified to) that the Twin Towers self-destructed in under 15 seconds from gravity forces, they have a harder time understanding WTC 7. Building 7 almost kind of sits on the outskirts of their consciousness with regard to what happened that day. It doesn't fit into the picture they've been given (one that is already logically strained) so it has to kind of just sit there like a white elephant until their minds can piece together a more logical conclusion.

Folks like yourself will never know, Scott, because you're so deeply invested in propagating a certain caricature of 9/11 truth that you wouldn't be able to see anything that was real or true if it was staring you in the face. One has to wonder, of course, why you're so invested; that's a psychological study of a different kind.

This in turn was followed by a reply from Oz1976 listing some infamous crazy Truthers.
Jared Loughner - truther
Phillip Marshall - truther
Boston Bombers - truthers
Truther Defaces Priceless Louvre Painting
James Von Brunn - truther/holocaust denier
Sean Fitzgerald - WAC truther
Manny Badillo - truther pedophile

yeap...they're all sane and non-violent peace loving individuals.

I'd just like to add that my original post was referring to members of grassroots organizations like AE9/11T and We Are Change. If the thread continues, I'll try and list some of their membership that appears to be unbalanced.
 
I've always thought of 9/11truth activism to be an extreme version of politics.... if anything. I think associating with it as a movement for the mentally impaired is a stretch, especially considering that we always have a field day practicing this kind of retort whenever we all get into the fray via politics.

Mental impairment has a tendency to worsen this stuff to the nth degree. But at the end of the day, politics is frequently kind of like an art of spin and bias. 9/11truth just exemplifies one of the more bizarre, and outrageous extremes of this, waaay more so than the typical politics discussion fanfare. Let's face it, people don't have to be medically retarded to believe in silly things.... Our views on society in general are after all influenced by those around us and our experiences too, with a hint of educational background added to the context.

Just my take on it honestly... Not to say politics is nothing but pure lies and can never be productive (quite the contrary in a good debate) but it certainly can give that impression depending on the people you debate with, which is why I see some parallels (but keeping in mind very big differences!) between it and conspiracy theories.
 
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I don't have a clear way to describe this yet. There has never been a professional interest in 9/11 Truth. Starting from just after the attacks, the professional position was clear and has remained so. But there was a lay interest in the position that included many artists and others who were clearly people with a high level of functioning. Gradually, 9/11 Truthers have aligned themselves with other kinds of conspiracy groups and the idea of a 'conspiracy' that involves 9/11 and secret control on a global level has become part of this belief system.

So what you see inside these groups is increasingly people talking about all kinds of crazy ideas. You can be the most messed up kind of person, babbling about all sorts of crazy things and you'll find a place among them. Look at this crap about gang stalking.

But my point really is empirical. If you look at the people running some of the more street-level groups, the people broadcasting regularly on the Internet, the organizers for big groups like AE9/11T, you see some seriously disturbed people. You see them in leadership positions. You see people who are very disturbed clustering around them.

Let's put it this way, if you have hallucinations that the government put a chip in your head and reads your mind, if you've been involuntarily committed repeatedly, all you've got to do to be taken seriously by a large group of people is fit 9/11 Truth in there somewhere. Suddenly you can talk about how you know there's a martial law coming and you have secret knowledge direct from the White House. You're no longer a crazy man. You've got an important political opinion.
 
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Certainly a topic worth discussing, and there are indeed plenty of sad cases out there. See our previous discussion on gang stalking victims.

ergo said:
I've never seen a violent 9/11 truth demonstration, nor have I ever seen signs of mentally disturbed action among 9/11 truthers. Most of the 9/11 truth people I've met are intelligent people who support peace and justice. You live in Taiwan, so I wonder where in fact you're witnessing these gatherings you make so many claims about.

In addition, I've already shown here on this forum that there are far more disturbed and volatile people who believe in the 9/11 official story AND who act out in the name of that alleged cause. From both a logical and statistical standpoint, you're the ones whose mental health we need to be concerned about. You need to let that fact sink in.
Good opportunity to plug my thread

Why a belief in the 9/11 government conspiracy theory tacitly supports terrorism

which, as I say, shows that 9/11 Gubmint Story Beliebers are far more likely to commit violence than twoofers. And violence in the name of their perceived "cause".
Your mistake is that you're making sweeping generalizations based on anecdotes and very limited sample sizes.

ETA: I find your snide observation about "those who believe the official story" humourous, though. Of course there are "volatile and violent people" in a sample size that comprises most of the world's population. I would be highly surprised if it were otherwise.
 
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I'm starting this thread so as to not sidetrack Oystein's original thread about AE9/11T membership and the ReThink911 ad campaign.

I originally made this remark about the mental health of 9/11 Truthers.


It was followed by a thoughtful reply from ergo,



This in turn was followed by a reply from Oz1976 listing some infamous crazy Truthers.


I'd just like to add that my original post was referring to members of grassroots organizations like AE9/11T and We Are Change. If the thread continues, I'll try and list some of their membership that appears to be unbalanced.


One of AE911Truthiness's grass roots supporters is Dan Noel, a self-appointed 9/11 messiah if ever there was one.

http://www.global-platonic-theater.com/global-platonic-theater.htm

http://www.global-platonic-theater.com/Censors, Handling/practice on censors.htm

http://www.global-platonic-theater.com/Censors, Handling/Challenging on Baby Step/Al-Qaeda.htm

http://www.global-platonic-theater.com/Censors, Handling/Challenging on Baby Step/Thomas.htm

http://www.global-platonic-theater.com/Censors, Handling/Challenging on Baby Step/Chomsky.htm

http://www.global-platonic-theater.com/Censors, Handling/Challenging on Baby Step/Wieck.htm

http://www.global-platonic-theater....llenging on baby step/u.s. government/bja.htm

And etcetera.

Truth_Booth3.png


Cheers, Dave
 
Let's put it this way, if you have hallucinations that the government put a chip in your head and reads your mind, if you've been involuntarily committed repeatedly, all you've got to do to be taken seriously by a large group of people is fit 9/11 Truth in there somewhere. Suddenly you can talk about how you know there's a martial law coming and you have secret knowledge direct from the White House. You're no longer a crazy man. You've got an important political opinion.
--and this is the real tragedy. Sure, you can talk about deluded teens who post blurry photos and Alex Jones-parroted forum posts from their basements, but when you think of all the truly ill people who have their delusion worsened and even encouraged by other groups of people, many of whom are themselves sufferers of various illnesses, suddenly the whole thing is just sad.

Sometimes, reading threads on CT forums is like visiting an "Ana" forum where anorexia sufferers congregate to share weight loss tips and their BMI reduction progress.
 
I think a lot of us here know what I'm talking about. Conspiracy theory is a highly structured world. At the top, with all the money, are a small group. This would include AJ, DRG, and Gage. Underneath them, they use a large group of organizers to legitimate what they're doing. This group is made up of Dan Noel, Craig Fitzgerald, Harry Link and others, whose names are known pretty much only to others in conspiracy world and people like Dave and me who follow them closely, who are very disturbed people.

Harry Link is a Gulf War vet who has epilepsy and now surrounds himself with big dogs and guns. He runs an Internet broadcast where he talks about how the Illuminati run the world through the NWO. He is known to the Ohio State mental health court system.
http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x1458...mental-health-program-has-its-first-graduates
Harry is a supporter of We Are Change and every year attends their 9/11 memorial at Ground Zero.

These are the foot soldiers for AJ and Gage who do the work posting videos, organizing and attending their pathetic events, making it look like their really is some substance to AJ and Gage. Harry is broke. I might be wrong, but I don't think he has a job or has had one for a while.

But really I'm wondering if there's anything more to say about this?
 
I think a lot of us here know what I'm talking about. Conspiracy theory is a highly structured world. At the top, with all the money, are a small group. This would include AJ, DRG, and Gage. Underneath them, they use a large group of organizers to legitimate what they're doing. This group is made up of Dan Noel, Craig Fitzgerald, Harry Link and others, whose names are known pretty much only to others in conspiracy world and people like Dave and me who follow them closely, who are very disturbed people.

Harry Link is a Gulf War vet who has epilepsy and now surrounds himself with big dogs and guns. He runs an Internet broadcast where he talks about how the Illuminati run the world through the NWO. He is known to the Ohio State mental health court system.
http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x1458...mental-health-program-has-its-first-graduates
Harry is a supporter of We Are Change and every year attends their 9/11 memorial at Ground Zero.

These are the foot soldiers for AJ and Gage who do the work posting videos, organizing and attending their pathetic events, making it look like their really is some substance to AJ and Gage. Harry is broke. I might be wrong, but I don't think he has a job or has had one for a while.

But really I'm wondering if there's anything more to say about this?

More to say should involve some analysis, for example some kind of statistical comparison of folks meeting DSM criteria among Truthers vs. among the general population.

In general from my own personal point of view I find your structural model a good one. It seems there is a core of leaders (con artists? I am thinking like L. Ron Hubbard), surrounded by sycophantic active supporters, and then an Oort cloud of sympathisers whose level of involvement extends as far as reaching for the retweet button on their Galaxy S. That the sycophantic active foot soldiers could have an increased level of mental health issues could explain a lot, however you need more than anecdotal evidence to make your case.
 
Thanks. I don't think that controlled comparison or probability studies are the appropriate way to handle this. Being a Truthers activists is very rare event. There probably aren't more than a couple of hundred of them in the whole USA. Anecdotal stories could cover them, if we could find them all.

This is a deviant community. It is like Scientologists or The Family of God or the subculture of coprophilia. While a statistical description is useful, the idea of comparison limits this.

I liked the link from Dave Thomas that named 9/11 Truth activists who are really weird people. Tell me some more of the real nut bars and tell me what it is they do that makes them crazy. Do you know of any who have been involuntarily committed? Have drug or other substance abuse issues in their life?
 
One truther I sometimes mail with privately often starts off his mails saying how he again got almost no sleep and felt driven to exhaustion attending to a more than a couple of emotionally demanding topics. I sometimes get a feeling that serious insomnia may be a cause, or effect, of his Truthy delusions. He seems like a reasonable, even rational person at times, but jumps at every bit of Truthing he stumbles across - everything feeds into his world view.


Otherwise I am not experienced or educated at all wrt mental illnesses - don't know to describe, define or diagnose them.


One thing I think I see in some of the Twoof scientists is a tendency to yield to authority, and inability to break out once they realize they've been fooled. Farrer, Basile being examples. Perhaps even Harrit.
Folks like David Griscom, the referee of the Bentham paper: Full of himself - he believes very strongly in hos own authority and intellectual dominance. Many of his arguments sound very much: I believe this because I say it, and I am an eminent authority in science, so why should I not believe myself? Evidence to the contrary doesn't sway him.

Not sure any of that qualifies as, or is indicative, of mental illness.


We have some types in the AE911Truth orbit who get a feeling of relevance and meaning doing hard labor for Gage. Like the two ladies who travelled thousands of miles to promote Gage's latest film: Pam Snezee and Rena Patty. Both undistinguished as far as I can tell, but very much willing to sacrifice a lot. Pam donates small amounts when she can. I think she is relatively poor.
 
I think one of the things you have to look at when considering the relationship of mental health and belief in "whacky conspiracy theories" in general is what benefits the individual gets, or perceives himself to get, from holding onto these beliefs. Many people whom we would judge to be perfectly sane hold some pretty strange beliefs in terms of religion, etc. If there were no perceived benefit to holding on to these beliefs we would be more likely to discard them.
 
I liked the link from Dave Thomas that named 9/11 Truth activists who are really weird people. Tell me some more of the real nut bars and tell me what it is they do that makes them crazy. Do you know of any who have been involuntarily committed? Have drug or other substance abuse issues in their life?

A Truther named Mike Cook was committed a few years ago:

In April of 2005, I shared information on the attacks of 9/11/01 with my teaching assistant. I was working as a special educator for the Covington, Ky. Independent School District at a state funded residential treatment center for abused and neglected boys. (I had previous experience with that population in "wilderness therapy" programs or "hoods in the woods" and I was working on a Master's Degree in Special Education at Northern Kentucky University - NKU.) I had a Kentucky permit to carry a concealed weapon and was doing so. The reasons for this precaution were very valid and extend beyond my involvement in the 9/11 Truth Movement. I had been giving my aide, and sometimes her daughter, a ride home after school and I knew that to discontinue this would be a considerable inconvenience for her. I was very willing to continue giving her a ride, but I felt apprehensive that she was not aware of the circumstance she was in while riding with me so I tried to inform her somewhat and showed her my pistol to emphasize that I was serious about this, that this was reality. She "freaked out" and took this information to my boss, who took it to the police.

The Covington police came to the classroom the next day before the
students arrived and took me to the psychiatric ward at St. Elizabeth Hospital.

All told he spent about 6 months in various facilities. The Web Fairy (aka Rosalee Grable) revealed in an interview that she had been institutionalized by her family:



And if you watch that interview it is not hard to believe. Rosalee was an important early Truther and her website was commonly cited in early Truther postings.

The leader of the Arizona Truther group was Kent (Cow Killer) Knudsen. Kent took his own life about 3 years ago.

There was an Australian Truther who was committed a few years back but I am not finding the information right now.

Let me add too that there are plenty of Truthers who have screwed up their lives in pursuit of the Holy Fail. Richard Gage's wife divorced him over his nuttery. Steven Jones was fired from BYU. Numerous Truthers have talked about the fact that they don't have any friends any more because they scared them away--Jon Gold and Bob McIlvaine are only the tip of the iceberg. Of course, to Truthers this is a sign of their commitment, but to us sane folks it's a symptom of nuttiness that may not quite require being institutionalized, but is certainly edging in that direction.
 
"One truther I sometimes mail with privately often starts off his mails saying how he again got almost no sleep and felt driven to exhaustion attending to a more than a couple of emotionally demanding topics. I sometimes get a feeling that serious insomnia may be a cause, or effect, of his Truthy delusions. He seems like a reasonable, even rational person at times, but jumps at every bit of Truthing he stumbles across - everything feeds into his world view."

More proof that you have no understanding or empathy for individuals who honestly believe that 9/11 was an inside job.

9/11 was one helluva shock for most people.

But we were given explanations which fit our understanding of what was going on in the world and at home.

We were re-assured about who, how, and why.

And then we saw the rarely viewed news videos of WTC7 dropping like a brick.

And so did our hearts.

MM
 
More proof that you have no understanding or empathy for individuals who honestly believe that 9/11 was an inside job.

9/11 was one helluva shock for most people.

But we were given explanations which fit our understanding of what was going on in the world and at home.

We were re-assured about who, how, and why.

And then we saw the rarely viewed news videos of WTC7 dropping like a brick.

And so did our hearts.

MM
So are you saying a lot of Truthers suffer from PTSD? Thanks MM, I agree that is a possible contributing factor to their behavior.
 
More proof that you have no understanding or empathy for individuals who honestly believe that 9/11 was an inside job.
People like Jones who spread lies due to some mental problem they have to spread BS about murdered people? They are sad pathetic individuals who spread lies; lies so stupid no one who is rational would believe

9/11 was one helluva shock for most people.
Yes, terrorists attacks are a shock, unlike the nearly 50,000 a year who die on the roads of the USA, terrorists hit when you don't expect to be at risk. A shock which Gage uses to fool the weak at mind to fork over millions of dollars - ok - 300 to 400k/yr.

But we were given explanations which fit our understanding of what was going on in the world and at home.
Nope, we used facts and evidence to figure out it was 19 terrorists.

We were re-assured about who, how, and why.
Nope, we used evidence and facts; 911 truth uses lies to fool those who can't gather evidence. 911 truth uses fantasy, reality is based on evidence.

And then we saw the rarely viewed news videos of WTC7 dropping like a brick.
Wow, WTC 7 took over 16 seconds to collapse after fires burned out of control. Not a surprise for engineers, but 911 truth followers need "experts" to tell them what to think. They accept the lies out of ignorance.

And so did our hearts.

MM
It is ironic a building which burned out of control becomes the heart dropping red flag of woo for 911 truth.


Jones seems to be insane of his thermite claims - think he hated Bush and war and is will to spead BS, extreme fantasy, to attack the "man", the government", etc. Jones thinks the USA caused the earthquake in Haiti, and his best work is about Christ walking in the New World - more likely than thermite - 911 Truth is a Cult Religion, based on woo, insane claims by old nuts - like me; I know they are BS artist, 911 truth followers are gullible.
 
Truthers suffer from a character flaw at the very least.

Gage was in the middle of his mid-life crisis when he became a truther. Many others seem to lack basic reasoning and logic skills. They want to stretch events to fill their theory that 9/11 was faked so we could go to war in Iraq. They are obviously antisocial shut-ins because right through the summer of 2001 there was popular consent in the USA to "kick the s---" out of Iraq every time they shot at our planes enforcing the no-fly zone (remember that?). At parties and at bars, and Bar-B-Qs you could set your clock by how soon someone would say "We should have finished the job in Iraq."

The US was ready to go, and technically we were already in a state of armed hostility with Iraq under the UN cease-fire (which means we stopped shooting, but could start again when we wanted to.)

Truthers ignore this fact.

Their lack of reasoning skills is evident in all of their sub-theories: No-Planes, LIHOP, MIHOP, nanothermite/CD, and missiles or deathrays. Others willingly ignore that facts, we see it every day here, but others are emotionally invested in their world view, and due to their psychological fragility they cling to their theories with a death-grip.

I saw this in the JFK-nutjob world, they would ignore actual cover-up evidence and admissions by the FBI, and CIA, because it conflicted with their versions of the events.

It is all about ego. Nothing more.
 
--and this is the real tragedy. Sure, you can talk about deluded teens who post blurry photos and Alex Jones-parroted forum posts from their basements, but when you think of all the truly ill people who have their delusion worsened and even encouraged by other groups of people, many of whom are themselves sufferers of various illnesses, suddenly the whole thing is just sad.
Sometimes, reading threads on CT forums is like visiting an "Ana" forum where anorexia sufferers congregate to share weight loss tips and their BMI reduction progress.

I believe this is the biggest issue with Jared Loughner. He was already mentally unstable and had undergone treatment apparently on several occasions. Then he got a hold of Zeitgeist and he went further off the deep end. Everything suddenly became a conspiracy to him.

It's why it sickens me to read the comments on Alex Jones videos on Youtube. No matter what conspiracy he's pushing, you start to see the same names over and over again agreeing with him and parroting it. They fall hook line and sinker and his cult grows. Some of the most asinine conspiracies, they just can no longer think for themselves. Sooner or later, there will be another tragedy/mass shooting/bombing and we'll find out they're a "truther" of some ilk or another and he'll spin that claiming it's the government trying to discredit him or some other nonsense. The fact that he's being given some spotlight by some prominent figures is disheartening. Drudge, Ron and Rand Paul, Lou Dobbs, Andrew Napolitano , and Ted Nugent just to name a few. And if any of you are familiar with the old tv show Fear Factor, the host of that show, Comedian/Pot Activist/UFC Commentator Joe Rogan is a frequent guest and friend.

While the 9/11 Truth movement has certainly nearly died off, Alex Jones continues to grow his fan base and followers. With such persuasive videos as this page: http://www.familysurvivalkit.org/index.php?aff_id=7703&subid=iw620x100fsc I can't see how a rational mind would continue to fall for this nonsense, yet they do.
 

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