9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[9/11-investigator]

Yes. European bigotry used to run very very deep. And it appears to still with a few folks between Belgium and Luxembourg.

There is no country between Belgium and Luxemburg, they border direct with each other.

Nevertheless I am glad that you decided to talk again with me.

 

[gtc]

You are missing the point. We are talking about being thrown out by the natives, not by our historic arch-enemy the British, which was what probably happened in most of the cases you mention.

Schoolgeld terughalen, meneertje.

If you are talking about being thrown out by the natives then you have changed the topic because it was the British who kicked the Dutch out of New York.

 

[ddt]

The whole exchange:

We in New York kicked the Dutch back to Holland. Clearly it was a very good move.

When did that happen? Who is we?

'You' have been kicked out of far more countries than the Dutch have.

Really?

We were only kicked out violently of Indonesia as far as I can remember.

The Jews on the other hand were kicked out of almost every European Country at some point.

You're "only" forgetting about Brazil, Nieuw Nederland/New York, Ghana, South Africa, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, India, Malay, Taiwan and Japan off the top of my hat. At least half of that you should have learnt in primary school.

You are missing the point. We are talking about being thrown out by the natives, not by our historic arch-enemy the British, which was what probably happened in most of the cases you mention.

Schoolgeld terughalen, meneertje.

If you are talking about being thrown out by the natives then you have changed the topic because it was the British who kicked the Dutch out of New York.

... and out of South Africa, Ghana, Ceylon, India, Malay.

Good catch, gtc. Shifting the goalposts much, 9/11-investigator?

 

[Uninvolved]

I'm curious as to why holocaust deniers choose that event in particular to debate so rabidly

Assumed you are referring to the "soap" case, there are quite a few reasons:

1. because it is true

2. because it is characteristic (it has been spread everywhere, it occurs even in the IMT documentations as a fact)

3. because still there are people believing it and/or other rubbish

4. because it can be revealing. Example: Shermer and Grobman (I assume you know these names) presented a wittness of the burning of large number of bodies in the open. This happened in a public debate over the Holocaust. Unfortunately for Shermer, the wittness attested

they made lampshades and cook soap...

You could have asked why do they debate the "4 million dead in Auschwitz so rabidly, when that is an outdated issue. Well, look at post #1219:

Four million is the total number of casualties. 1.5 million is the number of Jewish casualties

And if you think this is not important, see the continuation:

Stop playing games with the dead, you festering stain.

Btw, are you too a festering stain, or do you believe the 4 million victims of Auschwitz?

There are so many facts and events throughout history which you could also spend time demanding - 'Prove XXX event happened'

Good idea. Prove that gassing occured in Dachau. See

Dachau were among other things the centre of the camp system, it was where guards were trained.
The gaschamber there were mostly for training purposes, live training.

If you are at that, you can prove it for any other camp you like.

Do they spend this amount of time questioning how many really died at Agincourt? Were the casualties at the Battle of Bosworth really as many as described?

If not... why the Holocaust in particular? What has lead them to such doubt about this specific issue that is already pretty consistently agreed upon?

Excellent question. Which group of people apart the Holocaust activists stamp anyone as nazi, festering stain, Anti-Semite etc. for finding the claims exaggerated?

The cynical might suggest that they have an agenda first

I guess it never occurs to you, that your opponents may think the same of you. As the matter of fact, there is not much to gain with Holocaust denial/doubting, but spreading the Holocaust myths is still very profitable. For example the number of people living off denying Holocaust is (I guess) under 30, maybe under 10, but the Shoahbusiness is a multibillion industry.

 

[Thunder]

Come on Parky, you as well as I do that the public sees Schindler's List and keeps on hearing about the holocaust on an almost daily basis. They never hear anything else. Some call ik education, others brain washing.

Um..maybe in Holland. But not here. And we got 1 million Jews.

 

[dtugg]

Come on Parky, you as well as I do that the public sees Schindler's List and keeps on hearing about the holocaust on an almost daily basis. They never hear anything else. Some call ik education, others brain washing.

Usually, the only times I hear about the Holocaust is on this forum from wannabe nazis who all seem to believe that it didn't happen but the jews had it coming and the nazis had no choice and sooner or later someone will finish the job.

Same here. If it weren't for psychos on this forum who pretend it never happened, I would almost never hear about the Holocaust.

 

[Jontg]

I'm not the one playing games here, Investigator. You misrepresent, prevaricate, and slander your way through life, wallowing in self-indulgent, hateful delusions and branding those who question your dogma as sheep to further bloat your runaway ego and glorify your thuggish Fuhrer. Which is not to say that you shouldn't respect him--he does you a service by making you look sane, rational and almost possessed of a scrap of ethical integrity.
Let me lay this out very plainly, you walking abortion. The original paperwork consigning over twelve million people to death is still there. The recorded testimonies, from both victims and perpetrators, are still there. The camps themselves, special airtight de-lousing chambers and all, are still there. And in a little village in the north of Israel, called Sha'ar Menashe, you can still speak to people who lived through it only in the most technical of terms. People who were just children when they went to the camps, and who never came out. Post-traumatic stress disorder is the technical term for it; they live in the camps, Investigator--they live trapped in the nightmare that you deny ever happened day in and day out, every moment of their lives a microcosm of the suffering that creatures like you inflicted on them, suffering that will never end as long as they live. They are still there!
There is no word in any language that can describe the knot of crackling, black hatred that boils up behind my eyes when I read your ********. Picture every death metal, grindcore, and screamo album ever produced, condensed into a single syllable and backmasked in a five-minute loop over the sound of you being hit by a train and torn apart by jackals, and you may perceive some mediocre reflection of it.
ETA: I think my hate for you just killed Ted Kennedy. I hope you're happy. Oh, wait, he was Catholic, of course you're happy.

 

[Uninvolved]

The original paperwork consigning over twelve million people to death is still there

Pls post a link to it.

The recorded testimonies, from both victims and perpetrators, are still there

What exactly do they prove?

The camps themselves, special airtight de-lousing chambers and all, are still there

Do you have anything against de-lousing, when thousands of people are living very close to each other? Heard of typhus already? That's the sickness causing the horrendeous emaciation, which you were made believe was caused by starvation, you know? As typhus is spread by lice, de-lousing was essential.

 

[Vermonter]

Wow, you are a piece of work. As I've said before, I highly suggest a trip to Germany. You seriously ignore written testimony from the perpetrators of this crime, and the paperwork that backs it all up? Let me guess, it's been forged. This contemptable nonsense...amazing. You're a troll.

 

[Ashles]

Assumed you are referring to the "soap" case- (rest of post snipped due to being completely irrelevant)

I wasn't referring to the "soap" case. I have absolutely no idea why you assumed that. I didn't even know what you meant until you explained it further.

I am referring to the holocaust denial i.e. the denial that millions of Jews were killed sytematically by the Nazis.

I didn't mention soap or lampshades anywhere.
What you did there is argue against a completely different point to the one I actually made.
That is called a strawman argument.
It is a logical fallacy.

If you agree millions of Jews were systematically killed by the Nazis then we are in agreement.
I personally have no interest in debating the exact numbers or the methods. It is a sickening event and quibbling over the exact details will not make it any less sickening or heinous.

 

[ddt]

Excellent question. Which group of people apart the Holocaust activists stamp anyone as nazi, festering stain, Anti-Semite etc. for finding the claims exaggerated?

You have conveniently overlooked the premise of this thread. 9/11-investigator doesn't say Holocaust claims are exaggerated, but he claims the Holocaust didn't happen. His invective in describing that is also clear. See posts #1 and #3. Bolding is mine.

I am not going to waste an hour or more on writing down my position on the bunnycaust just to find it AH-ed after a couple of hours. Off-topic.

If you really want my position just start a bunnycaust thread and I'll give you my position until it hurts.

Go.

My position on the bunnycaust is that I will believe that it happened if somebody can demonstrate it to me that it happened.

In Europe we hold the view that somebody is innocent until proven guilty very unlike jungles like the US (jungle, because the dudalbs, the dtuggs, the parkys and the finewines are in charge) where the rule is: 'listen pall, we're going to throw you in jail for 4 years. However, if you confess being guilty we'll reduce your sentence to 2 years' ('fleabargain').

So here is my request to the local Israel-Lobby here on this forum (dudalb, dtugg, parky, finewine and a few hundred more): demonstrate to me that 6 million people were gassed in WW2 under the Nazis.

Wait, I'll make it easy for you: prove that only one person was gassed.

Success (you may use a calculator for this exercise).

More examples can easily be found traversing the thread.

 

[Uninvolved]

I wasn't referring to the "soap" case. I have absolutely no idea why you assumed that. I didn't even know what you meant until you explained it further

Look, your post appears immediately following my one, with the text

I'm curious as to why holocaust deniers choose that event in particular to debate so rabidly

and w/o any reference. Click on Help to find out how to quote something you are referring to.

I am referring to the holocaust denial i.e. the denial that millions of Jews were killed sytematically by the Nazis

Do you mean your that event in particular implies the Holocaust? So your question was, why people are debating the Holocaust so rabidly? If yo, then pls think about why others are defending so rabidly those positions, which the deniers debate so rabidly.

I personally have no interest in debating the exact numbers or the methods

Excellent; you are the second one stating this; however, as you can see, the others are very interested on the numbers and methods.

 

[Rogue1stclass]

Can you back that up with data? I highly doubt it. In the nineties... Silicon Valley... yes. But now? I have seen official figures that The Netherlands recently had a net influx of 2000 Americans. No idea if that were Euro-Americans. I have met quit a few in my career, mainly in Germany and Britain.

Most of the immigrants to the USA come from Mexico and Central America, where the vast majority of people have some amount of European ancestry. In Mexico, something like 80% of the population belongs to an ethnicity called mestizo who on average can claim around half of their DNA came from Europe, while another 10% or so are ethnically Spanish.

So, our Euro-American population is actually getting higher, unless Spain isn't Euro enough for you.

 

[Uninvolved]

You have conveniently overlooked the premise of this thread. 9/11-investigator doesn't say Holocaust claims are exaggerated, but he claims the Holocaust didn't happen

An attentive reader notices, that the thread contains many posts dealing with different aspects. I don't care for 9/11-investigator's claims, but some of the answers are in dire need of debating. Look Parky, Jongd, ddt, ...

 

[dudalb]

The whole exchange:













... and out of South Africa, Ghana, Ceylon, India, Malay.

Good catch, gtc. Shifting the goalposts much, 9/11-investigator?

You forgot Belgium.

 

[9/11-investigator]

You have conveniently overlooked the premise of this thread. 9/11-investigator doesn't say Holocaust claims are exaggerated, but he claims the Holocaust didn't happen.

ddt is intentionally misrepresenting my position. He suggest that my position is that nothing happened. That is ridiculous.

What I do say is this:

- there was a program to remove all the Jews from Nazi-occupied territory for relocation to the East (like the American government carried out on illegals in operation wetback)
- many Jews were used as slave laborers
- the conditions in the camps were horrible, many people died as a consequence (typhus, deprivation, sickness)
- the Germans recorded some 270,000 people (many Jews) who died in the camps. Obviously this happened
- hundreds of thousand of Jews (many partizans, partizans as in: trying to kill Germans) were machine gunned to death at the eastern front

What is highly in doubt is the gassing story, the deliberate attempt of exterminating a complete people as government policy. I am not ruling out that it happened on a smaller scale as generally accepted but it has to be proven first. Most likely it is war propaganda gone wild.

 

[9/11-investigator]

You seriously ignore written testimony from the perpetrators of this crime, and the paperwork that backs it all up?

Ah, finally somebody who is able to produce the evidence. I was getting impatient. Now Vermonter is going to produce links to material that has not yet been discussed (and debunked) and gives a short summary of the claims.

Now I know that Americans in general and Vermonters in particular have a flawed sense of justice (like the idea that torturing leads to true knowledge). To start with any credible court should be independent. So the idea that the victors are going to organize a little trial is too ludicrous to waste time on.

As a comparison: let's assume that Vermonter and I are crashing into each other with our respective cars. We start to argue, fighting, beating each other up until we both are bleeding and half dead. In the end I manage to gain the upper hand and I am able to tie Vermonter up to a tree. Next I put on a wig and a robe and start to play judge. My sentence is that Vermonter has to pay me millions of euro's in damages (dollars not accepted), claim that he also raped my wife and set fire to my house.

Would anybody take this 'court' serious? Of course not.

So why do you believe Nuremberg for Christ sake?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Let me lay this out very plainly, you walking abortion.

No problems on the civility front, moderators? Just kidding.

The original paperwork consigning over twelve million people to death is still there. The recorded testimonies, from both victims and perpetrators, are still there. The camps themselves, special airtight de-lousing chambers and all, are still there.

What 'original paperwork?'. Even Hilberg acknowledged that any paper trail is entirely missing, you liar. Nobody denies that the camps are still there and I do particularly like your reference to these 'airtight delousing chambers', which were the starting point to bootstrap the holocaust story from. Your point?

And in a little village in the north of Israel, called Sha'ar Menashe, you can still speak to people who lived through it only in the most technical of terms. People who were just children when they went to the camps, and who never came out. Post-traumatic stress disorder is the technical term for it; they live in the camps, Investigator--they live trapped in the nightmare that you deny ever happened day in and day out, every moment of their lives a microcosm of the suffering that creatures like you inflicted on them, suffering that will never end as long as they live. They are still there!

All true and at the same time irrelevant for what we are discussing here. Do you understand the topic we are discussing here? I doubt it.

There is no word in any language that can describe the knot of crackling, black hatred that boils up behind my eyes when I read your ********. Picture every death metal, grindcore, and screamo album ever produced, condensed into a single syllable and backmasked in a five-minute loop over the sound of you being hit by a train and torn apart by jackals, and you may perceive some mediocre reflection of it.

Jontg is quit honest about his hatred, but doesn't want to add anything of substance to the discussion.

ETA: I think my hate for you just killed Ted Kennedy. I hope you're happy. Oh, wait, he was Catholic, of course you're happy.

There hasn't been a greater traitor to his own people than Ted Kennedy. I don't mourn his death. His religion has nothing to do with it.

 

[Uninvolved]

What is highly in doubt is the gassing story, the deliberate attempt of exterminating a complete people as government policy

This is a muddy claim. What is "government policy"? How many top leaders must know about it? Who must decided it, so that it becomes "government policy"?

It is highly debated, inconclusively, if Hitler ever gave such command. First it was claimed that it was proven in writing, but this is not on the table any more (except, I guess, with some posters here, like the one who still claims 4 million vistims in Auschwitz). But is that decisive regarding "government policy"? Add to that, that Hitler's recorded statements are often contradicting; how do we know, when he was lying and when he changed his mind? And does that matter?

Himmler's "Posen speeches" were very explicite (some are disputing that too). If only Himmler had given the commands, was that government policy or not?

To make it even muddier, the "government policy", whatever that is, was not constant. Supporting immigration in Palestinia and enforcing settlement in Madagaskar were different from deportation in the occupied Soviet regions, the latter meaning death with high probability.

The part exterminating a complete people is even more of a problem. If that was really a policy, then why have been hundreds of thousands kept in those camp, where no mass killing took place? And no, not only those were there, who were needed for their labour.

All in all, I would drop the "government policy" claim, no matter which side one defends or disputes.

 

[Twiler]

There hasn't been a greater traitor to his own people than Ted Kennedy. I don't mourn his death. His religion has nothing to do with it.

Why does anyone owe any sort of loyalty to their 'own people'?

And what did he do to offend you?