9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[beachnut]

You're back, meaning you were not contributing to JREF at all, but you came back to call for a ban only. Some contributor.

Nevertheless, I would not mind a ban at all. It would be a moral victory, since you allowed this thread to grow into page 23 without a problem and I have stayed rather polite if I may say so. All over sudden banning me would simply admit defeat. The inability to corner me with arguments.

Besides, there are thousands of forums. The intellectual resistance you guys offer is of a shameful low quality. Basically a bunch of smearing invective one-liners, no great loss to be deprived of your impotent non-arguments.

The one and only person who could have put up a fight, the holocaust entrepreneur Nick Terry, who spent years studying the holocaust subsidized by Jewish money, ran away as fast as he could as soon as he noticed that somebody really resisted.

So, go ahead. I will simply continue to post in a polite manner. I will see where the ship will strand.

Can you count past 250,000? I bet those dirt dumb NAZIs had the same problem.

You are the most polite Holocaust denier, you have no knowledge but you are polite save the dirt dumb moronic statements you make which are not polite, just small minded lies.

 

[MG1962]

If any one is interested. Today is the anniversary of the last diary entry Anne Frank never made, in a war that never happened in a death she never suffered

 

[Satra]

Hm. I'm d'accord with you Simon, in a certain sense.
I had the same opinion as you for years.
I'll explain the developpement of my opinion:

I live and grew up in Germany, with German culture in its best sense.
And not only was I tought a lot about the 3.Reich, I was highly interested in this theme and deliberately concerned myself with this period and with Jiddish culture by reading, listening to music, visiting museums etc.
It was kind of handling / digesting a traumatism.

To focus on hurting themes seems to be important as far as you need to digest them. But then it's sensible to heal them, and that happens by centering on positive contents of life, positive visions.

Germans found no end to confront with the past, no end of feeling horrified, ashamed, helpless. They may be -in a different way- as much traumatised as Jews by their past. Do you know that many Germans have a feeling of horror and threat when being confronted to their cultural traditions, simply because they were used in the 3.Reich and profoundly got a bad connotation / association?

One example.
Some years ago because of a sportive event German people went through the roads with their national flags and sang in their language and were happy!
How nice, may you think. And how natural. - Not at all.
Many many GERMAN people got a feeling between unease, fear and shock - we seriously asked ourselves if that should be permitted or not, because we clearly associated nazi-epoch with it. There was a great discussion in the medias, between family, friends, institutions and even any people on the road (many Germans are relatively reserved and not used to communicated with unknown people on the road)
In our country Italian and Turkish people regularly celebrate sportive successes the same way, and the majority of people have no problem with it. But for our own culture we do or did.
That's ONE -very flashy- example.

I feel that this is insane and has to change. It's important to have a good relationship to your cultural roots and love your country, without any shame.

It's not by focussing on the atrocities and feeling helpless, sorrowful and ashamed that we make the world a better place to live, far from it. And that's what we wish, isn't it? If we had the choice wether to forget half of what we know about what happened 50 years ago and have a more harmonious world, more harmony and respect deeply in and between people, or to know everything about our past and find our present constantly filled with war - what would we chose? What is more important?


When I see Jewish people compleasing in (? liking and cultivating) the role of martyr, I don't feel much sorrow for them anymore. Let's create another world, with love and respect and not focus on the past.

Our society is ill because of concentrating on past (and future) and on negative contents.

History is fascinating, just sometimes it's absolutely time to focus on healing a traumatism instead of analyzing and discussing it. And sometimes is NOW, especially in this case.

For you it's a principle, people should admit the truth, and maybe this "9/11 investigator" is hateful towards Jews and discusses the theme only to search to denigrate them (if it was not just a provoking game).
I don't know the exact truth concerning the past. I know that for the Nazis there were unworthy people they didn't want to be confronted with and killed, my Grandpas sister was physically severely disabled, they took her in institution for disabled people, made essays with medicaments on her, documenting accurately her state of health and reaction to what they injected her, and within a week after she got in furious rage and threatened them to "tell everything!" at the only public festivity of the house, she died a sudden death without heaving been any ill. That was half a year after it got officially legal to kill disabled people.
So, as the nazi-politic was against Jews and following the information and negative information easily available, there's not the tiniest reason why they should have treated them a different way.
And in fact, gassing peoples or not, it's largely enough for me to see the photos of mountains of completely emaciated corpses, the as well documented as sadistic researches on humans etc etc. The evidence proving that nazi politic had not the tiniest bit of respect for human life in its diversity and didn't shrink from lies, violent actions, murders... is so complete and diversified...

But... not only NAZI politic. And not only in the past.
That's the clue, for me. Why focus on and fight for the correct vue of the past? The present discussion has been made for athousand times perhaps.
"9/11 investigator" came provoking and just wanted to show his arms and do some fencing, his mind was not open for what others wrote. And that's clear: if he'd wanted to find truth by intellectual exchange, he would have articulated himself another way in his entry-post. He may just have felt bored and searched for a intellectual battle. He's not much more than an energy-vampire, possibly.

Discussing with such a persan can necessite much energy we can make a more efficient use of by strengthening tolerance, respect and love in our present: in our life, in our city, in our country and wherever else we are able to.


I understand the reason you give for defending a truthfull description of the past.
The theme, as I sketched, is a deep traumatism. A traumatism doesn't care about truth and lie, it cares and cries for healing.
I'm sceptic you can help by discussing and defending the or your truth. And the theme is to serious and hearting to discuss on principles instead of help and heal, after over 50 years of feeling oppressed and traumatised for at least two nations.
And it's not hatred or lack of respect that heals or improves, regardless to whom we adress and what this person thinks / says / did.

 

[Simon39759]

Let's be clear that if the Holocaust is a very important pieces of history; it is not specifically a piece of German history.
Indeed, anti-Semitism was very prevalent all over Europe at the time. Russia organized progroms and things were only marginally better in the Stalinist era. France had its Dreyfuss affair and, after the election of Leon Blum, the antisemitic backlash was very real. In the UK and US, the history of anti-semitism was a bit subdued but it was there too.
Indeed, when offered the opportunity after the German occupation, a great number of people in every occupied country eagerly went on to collaborate with the Nazi murder machine.

It certainly were a unique set of circumstances that put Hitler into power in Germany in the 30ies, but, I believe, that if a similar monster had arrived into power anywhere else in the world, he would have had a similar success in implementing such a policy.

There is nothing about the Holocaust that is particular to the German culture and people and that's why it is so important to keep its memory fresh. Such fear and hatred of the 'other' is universal in human nature and it could happen anywhere.

 

[drkitten]

But... not only NAZI politic. And not only in the past.
That's the clue, for me. Why focus on and fight for the correct vue of the past?

Because the past influences the present. "Past is prologue," as the chestnut puts it.

Less than two months ago, a neo-Nazi shot and killed a man at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. He didn't do it in a vacuum.

He was a supporter of the Nazi's a virulent anti-Semite, and a Holocaust denier.

By not catching him earlier, we allowed Stephen Tyrone Johns to die. His son is fatherless because someone spread anti-Semitic Holocaust-denying lies, and someone else chose to listen.

The Holocaust was traumatic. And healing from the trauma is important. But so is preventing new trauma. Johns didn't die in the Holocaust, but he died from it. It continues, and racist scum like 9/11-investigator are part of the reason people are still dying.

 

[Satra]

drkitten, I hope you will get what I want to express. it may sound strange.

I do not think that the way of changing the conscience of humanity a positive way by emprisoning those who reflect the dark parts of it. I -believe- that everyone who wants humanity to get more harmonious should focus on himself and his relationships, and that it may make more sense to spread tolerance than to condamn people.

In my feeling and conviction, humanity is a hole. there is a conscience of humanity as a hole. to raise it, it doesn't help to condemn a part of it, but to elevate the frequency of oneself, focus on what you wish, and that spreads.
Elevating the frequency can mean weakening fealings like fear, hate and distress, observing them with distance and not allow them to rule you and your comportement.

What you do, is to stick on the past out of fear that it could repeat.
My opinion is, it's by constructively strengthening love and compassion or tolerance and a present we feel worth living that we act the most powerfully to make the best out of the past.

We see, so much people are informed about Holocaust. I suppose, most people on the planet are convinced that Holocaust etc took place. They are convinced, but that doesn't help us.
The way we try to resolve problems is not powerful. We go through the brain. I believe our way has to go through the heart.


It's easy to say that, - I know that it's profoundly shocking and easily revolting to experience such a crime, and I wouldn't anybody not to react an authentic way.

Of course it's good to be lucid. But to discuss with this man won't change his and his fellows attitude.
And that he denies the murder of Jews is a consequence of his attitude. Imagine a lever - if you want to pull somebody out of his conviction, you should bring into motion his center of gravity, not something around it.

The center of gravity, his attitude, is formed by negativity. He searches to agitate people against Jews, if I have understood well.
It's not by negative feelings, by fear and disgust that we will weaken that fealing. the more we weaken negative feelings in us, the more we strengthen positive feelings, the more we strengthen the pool and intensity of positive feelings in the world, and diminuish the power of the negative ones.
Maybe we still won't change anything about him and a certain amount of others, but we'll support effectively what we wish.
By strengthening feelings of intolerance and aggressivity we energetically feed the pool of frequency of people whose comportement is formed by them (like him).


I don't know if I explained that a way that is comprehensible for persons not used to this kind of approach.

 

[Chaos]

drkitten, I hope you will get what I want to express. it may sound strange.

I do not think that the way of changing the conscience of humanity a positive way by emprisoning those who reflect the dark parts of it. I -believe- that everyone who wants humanity to get more harmonious should focus on himself and his relationships, and that it may make more sense to spread tolerance than to condamn people.

In my feeling and conviction, humanity is a hole. there is a conscience of humanity as a hole. to raise it, it doesn't help to condemn a part of it, but to elevate the frequency of oneself, focus on what you wish, and that spreads.
Elevating the frequency can mean weakening fealings like fear, hate and distress, observing them with distance and not allow them to rule you and your comportement.

What you do, is to stick on the past out of fear that it could repeat.
My opinion is, it's by constructively strengthening love and compassion or tolerance and a present we feel worth living that we act the most powerfully to make the best out of the past.

We see, so much people are informed about Holocaust. I suppose, most people on the planet are convinced that Holocaust etc took place. They are convinced, but that doesn't help us.
The way we try to resolve problems is not powerful. We go through the brain. I believe our way has to go through the heart.


It's easy to say that, - I know that it's profoundly shocking and easily revolting to experience such a crime, and I wouldn't anybody not to react an authentic way.

Of course it's good to be lucid. But to discuss with this man won't change his and his fellows attitude.
And that he denies the murder of Jews is a consequence of his attitude. Imagine a lever - if you want to pull somebody out of his conviction, you should bring into motion his center of gravity, not something around it.

The center of gravity, his attitude, is formed by negativity. He searches to agitate people against Jews, if I have understood well.
It's not by negative feelings, by fear and disgust that we will weaken that fealing. the more we weaken negative feelings in us, the more we strengthen positive feelings, the more we strengthen the pool and intensity of positive feelings in the world, and diminuish the power of the negative ones.
Maybe we still won't change anything about him and a certain amount of others, but we'll support effectively what we wish.
By strengthening feelings of intolerance and aggressivity we energetically feed the pool of frequency of people whose comportement is formed by them (like him).


I don't know if I explained that a way that is comprehensible for persons not used to this kind of approach.

I think I understand what you mean. It´s just that I also think you are hopelessly naive.

How do you propose to strengthen love and compassion and tolerance in someone like 9/11-investigator, who has repeated expressed his rabid hatred for a group of people who have done him no harm, other than to tarnish the reputation of his Nazi heroes by being their victims and dying by the millions under the Nazis´ diabolic scheme?

The way to defeat the historical Nazis was excessive brute force. The way to defeat these ones isn´t going to be flowers and cute fluffy bunnies.

 

[Satra]

don't need to begin with such an advanced exercice XD.

unconsidered love is a powerful way, you obviously didn't try it.

but you wouldn't start your physical education by a marathon, would you?


I began to practice not to feel anger, fear, hatred against such persons. Looking at them lucidly when they cross our way and focus on our inner harmony and the way we wish the world to be and what wakens our feeling of love and power.

I think you are naive in case you think that fear and hatred gender harmony and tolerance.

 

[Thunder]

I really don't think you guys should debate with the Nazi trolls here...until they come up with a detailed hypothesis as to where the missing 5+ million Jews of Europe went.

Oh, and I kicked the grave of Peter Stuyvesant last week.

 

[SimonD]

First language or not, you make your point clear and it is, indeed, interesting.
Regardless of your interest for history (and I have to disagree with you here and believe historical accuracy is worth pursuing for its sake) it is revealing to note that, by and large, holocaust deniers in the West, the vast majority of them, have strong ties with the far right.

Ivring, Faurisson, the Stormfront website we have seen quoted here a few time, 9/11 himself who, I believe, has made his vitriolic racism and anti-semitism quite clear... For every Harry Elmer Barnes and Paul Rassinier, there are uncounted numbers of neo-nazis.

On the other hand, with have the works of Muslims deniers, people like Ahmadinejad that make no secret of their hatred for Israel and their wish to see the country destroyed.

It is quite clear, indeed, by simply looking at the people practising Holocaust denial that the objective rarely is too promote an actual knowledge of history. In truth, one can often wonder if the deniers really believe what they are pelleting of if they are just lying to advance their political cause.
And that the scariest part, as their whole objective could be summarize by the aphorism:"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".




*Au fait, être d'accord se dit: 'to agree' or 'to be in agreement' *

This is a very good point.

The argument for the holocaust deniers often goes along the lines of it couldn't happen because Germany is a civilised country or that you couldn't make people kill like that (apart from the usual anti-Semitic crap).

If you look through history, it seems to me that it is very easy to incite enough hatred in people to perform no end of killings.

In my own country there has been a systematic attempted to destroy the aboriginal people and their culture.

 

[drkitten]

I do not think that the way of changing the conscience of humanity a positive way by emprisoning those who reflect the dark parts of it.

What do you do with the people who "reflect the dark parts" of humanity, then?

That's a serious question, and it's not (in my opinion) one to which there is an easy or quick answer. Indeed, even "imprisonment" is a happy-fluffy-bunny solution that originated relatively recently in human history, based on the hopelessly naive idea (floated by the Quakers) that a wrongdoer, left with time alone to reflect, would naturally come to recognize the wrongness of his behavior, repent, and produce a genuine desire to make amends. Even the word "penitentiary" is a cognate for "penance" or "repentance." Before this, 9/11 would have been shot out of hand or hanged as an irredemable bad seed and stain on the human character.

The Quakers have, within the past 20 years, officially apologized for such a stupid and naive idea; several hundreds of years have shown that the penitentiary system simply doesn't work as they believed. Criminals given an opportunity to reflect on their criminal behavior don't magically become productive citizens, and in fact, tend to be reconfirmed in their criminality, in part because there's nothing else to do behind bars.

But I'm not sure I'm comfortable with simply executing Nazis out of hand for thoughtcrime.

What you do, is to stick on the past out of fear that it could repeat.

Fear, or caution? Simple pattern recognition says that Nazis kill people. They killed people in 1930, they killed people in 1942, they killed people in 1995, and they're killing people in 2009. It's not fear that makes me say that, but simple intelligence. It's equally not fear that makes me say that Nazis will continue to try to kill people unless they're stopped -- and simple common sense says that we should therefore stop them.

If you think that giving them hugs and fluffy butterflies and chocolates is the best way to keep neo-Nazis from killing people,... well, it's never worked in the past. It took multiple millions of men to stop the Nazis the first time around, and millions died.

 

[I Ratant]

...

The Quakers have, within the past 20 years, officially apologized for such a stupid and naive idea; several hundreds of years have shown that the penitentiary system simply doesn't work as they believed. Criminals given an opportunity to reflect on their criminal behavior don't magically become productive citizens, and in fact, tend to be reconfirmed in their criminality, in part because there's nothing else to do behind bars.

...

.
In the Visitors Waiting Room at the L A Sheriff's Central Regional Detention Facility in Lynwood, there's a sign at the office of a religious group that states that 80% of the inmates in jail now, will be back in jail after they're released.

 

[Satra]

You don't get my point.

I don't write about giant inflatable marshmallows, but what what I write about is as unfamiliar to you.

You did not try to practicate inconsidered love.

Eh?

Or did one of you?

So why do you imagine you know better than me about its power?


Our culture is focussed, our politics partly even founded on aggression and fear.

It's clear that we do not want to live in a world of war and murder (of innocents). Most of us. And that if we don't resolve the problem, the problem will resolve Humanity in some years.

We need a powerful way. The way we went is not powerful enough.

In my eyes the problem is the kind of conscience we have. People react with aggression and fear / lack of confidence to the difficulties in their life.

They aren't masters of themselves and of their life, they are victims and permit so much things to get them out of their center, get in deep -negative- emotions.

So, in my eyes, we have very intelligent, very educated, very peaceloving persons in our world. May all these persons learn to master their emotions and their life and that spreads.


You imagine you know that inconsidered love doesn't work (enough).
Your did not try to practicate it.
I consider that as "belief", not as "knowledge".

I tried. Several other persons tried.

It's an immensely powerful way, you can't imagine.

More and more persons link to this or similar ways, persons with very different cultural and religious background / approachs. The influence of these people is growing on earth.

 

[Satra]

you asked me what I would propose to do with such delinquents.
Difficult.

I'm not a politician and did not think enough about that to find my answer.

I'm working with my special abilities, that is personal transformation and communication.

The actual system of emprisoning doesn't seem to be very sensible, I also think.

Killing people...? I would not approve that. And if someone persists to do it, I'd propose: not under traumatising conditions, I say. In USA it seams that there are quite traumatising conditions in killing people.

In fact, I said why that isn't a worthy solution in my eyes: conscience of Humanity is a whole (auu, I wrote it the false way last time, I'll correct it...).

I stress on personal elevation of frequence.

Oh yes, I have got an idea XD: expose them each day for some time to music of Snatam Kaur. Some hours if you want to try to get rid of them - their conscience may dissolve into Oneness .

I possibly would try musical therapy, f.ex.

I guess you think that's a game for little girls in pink tutus that spread goodies (or something approaching).

Did one of you try it?

I'm musician. I experienced that music and just even sound can develop a highly intensive power.

I would search answers not only in the intellect but as much in the intuition, in each case.

 

[Satra]

Oh, I can't correct my orthographe error when I wrote "hole" instead of "whole". It's a significant difference ... Can anyone tell me how to adress to whom that it should be corrected?

 

[tsig]

My own Saxon Dutch father was deported in 1944 to Poland to participate in the Arbeitseinsatz. He had amongst others to help clean up the mess in Dresden a few days after the Allies carried out their barbarous attack that claimed a comparable number of lives (135,000) in 1 night intentionally as all the people that died in all the camps combined over 3 years (270,000)!

He never experienced any barbarous act by the Germans.

Your father seems to be a busy beaver.

 

[Aepervius]

My own Saxon Dutch father was deported in 1944 to Poland to participate in the Arbeitseinsatz. He had amongst others to help clean up the mess in Dresden a few days after the Allies carried out their barbarous attack that claimed a comparable number of lives (135,000) in 1 night intentionally as all the people that died in all the camps combined over 3 years (270,000)!

He never experienced any barbarous act by the Germans.

That is the new one to me. the proof by "if my father did not see it, it did not exists".

I guess that testimony of all other son/father/parents/relative is worthless to your father's.

 

[Wildy]

My own Saxon Dutch father...

He never experienced any barbarous act by the Germans.

To somewhat echo what you said earlier in this thread, why should I care about the third hand opinion of a little person?

 

[drkitten]

you asked me what I would propose to do with such delinquents.
Difficult.

I'm not a politician and did not think enough about that to find my answer.

I'm working with my special abilities, that is personal transformation and communication.

Then you're approaching the issue exactly backwards. It shouldn't be a question of working with your "special abilities" if even you don't think that your abilities will solve the problem. (I'm reminded of the old joke about the drunk looking for his keys under the wrong lightpost, "because the light is better here.")

What we need to work with are things that will solve the problem -- whether they're anyone's special abilities or not.

Or if we can't find things that "will" solve the problem, at least things that "are likely to" solve the problem or for which we have evidence that they "can" solve the problem.

I'm musician. I experienced that music and just even sound can develop a highly intensive power.

So was Charles Manson. And Hitler was an artist, and Stalin a poet.

The track record for artistic endeavours producing kindly spiritual souls is not exactly 100%. Do you have any evidence, even, that musicians are LESS criminally inclined than the general public?

 

[Toke]

The question of how a democracy defends itself against facism without becoming it, is an old one.
And not one I have the answer to.