9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[9/11-investigator]

I must correct my statements concerning "50 Anne Frank's who died in Pforzheim". That was wrong. I did some searching and I retrieved that article I had read years ago:

http://globalfire.tv/nj/07en/history/anne_frank_lie.htm

Of course, the Americans and Brits had not murdered her intentionally - Anne Frank's death was merely the kind of "collateral damage that happens." If she had merely been any German girl of the same age, there would be nothing to talk about. For example, 140 German girls named "Anne" were murdered in Würzburg on March 16, 1945, by Allied bombing in which 7,000 people were killed.

It was Wuerzburg, not Pforzheim.
And it was 140 Anne's, rather than 50 Anne Frank's.

My apologies.

 

[Maja]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8871/may201945.gif

Comments please!

Okay, I'll comment.

The two prisoners wearing pajama-like prison uniforms (mentioned and quoted in the second column of the article) both mention family members who had been killed by the Nazis. Fayvel Grossman mentions a wife and two daughters who were killed in Auschwitz. Israel Kros mentions a brother who was "put in the oven" because he was ill. Would you care to comment on that?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Okay, I'll comment.

The two prisoners wearing pajama-like prison uniforms (mentioned and quoted in the second column of the article) both mention family members who had been killed by the Nazis. Fayvel Grossman mentions a wife and two daughters who were killed in Auschwitz. Israel Kros mentions a brother who was "put in the oven" because he was ill. Would you care to comment on that?

Sure! The H-word is getting more interesting by the day! No mentioning of gas chambers but people burned alive, no less! No doubt Grossman and Kros saw this all happening with their own eyes.

Seriously, could it be that Grossman and Kros had an axe to grind with the Germans and that they, while walking in pyjama's through the German countryside, were somewhat less concerned with scientific truth while talking to this nice chap from the NYT?

Could it be that while "his brother was put in the oven because he was ill"... he was put in the oven because he was in dead condition as a consequence of his illness, but that Israel Kros fails to mention that little detail?

But within the framework of the discussion in this thread, the adventures of Grossman and Kros are not really interesting. Hugely interesting is the report from a jewish source like the NYT that more than 6 million slave laborers were freed from underground or otherwise hidden factories.

Now, what would be the ethnic background of a large part of those 6 million people freed, you think? Could it be the final answer to the question Parky repeatedly asked: what happened to the Juden?

 

[VonKleist]

The revelation to me is the reference to underground factories. I knew it in relation to Peenemuende, but nothing else.

Really? You've been 'studying' the holocaust for 18 months and you've never heard of underground factories? This is another 'typo' right?

 

[TSR]

Ah wait, I found it by removing '1945'.

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Well, lookit there: as long as someone *else* does the leg work, Niney is willing to check zir sources.

Of course, zie should have done this to begin with, then zie would have seen that the bulk of the article (which Niney *still* has not read) is under copyright, making his initial post (and zie still has not stated where zie stole it from) a copyright violation.
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The point is that the 6 million figure is now related to people who turned out to be alive for a change! The revelation to me is the reference to underground factories. I knew it in relation to Peenemuende, but nothing else.

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But then, we've already established that your knowledge of the history you're so desperate to deny is woefully inadequate.

See, for example, IMT document 3005-PS

Oh, and DZ? About "the six million number?" Coincidences abound. There is, for example, "The Six Million Dollar Man." Was Lee Majors in on it? There's the album "Six Million Ways To Die," Cutty Ranks. I guess the Jamaicans were part of the plot. But wait! It gets worse! Verizon is taking delivery of almost 6 million iPhones in the next three months!!! Steve Jobs is Zionist plant!

Once again, do the math: 11 million Jews minus 5.1 million killed leaves .... how many Jews?
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If German boys of age 16 were fighting in the German army, than it becames immediately obvious that the Germans could not afford to waste labor forces, Jewish or non-Jewish.

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Well, it's immediately obvious that you shouldn't send soldiers to the Russian front in October without cold weather gear. It's immediately obvious that, in the middle of a two front war, you don't waste transport resources shipping people to death camps. It's immediately obvious that when one has only ever achieved the rank of corporal due to a complete lack of military leadership skills, one should defer to one's more experienced and talented military men.

But Hitler wasn't rational, and it's a big mistake to argue that he was.
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Many Germans were used as slaves in Russia for periods of 10 years or longer after the war.

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Even assuming you can document this, it excuses Nazi behaviour during the war ... how?
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That was Wiesel's story as well in 'his' book Night.

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First of all, stop pretending you've ever even read the book, secondly can you offer any evidence that your denier buddies' assertions that any (let alone all) historians have demonstrated it didn't happen?
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I must correct my statements concerning "50 Anne Frank's who died in Pforzheim". That was wrong. I did some searching and I retrieved that article I had read years ago:

http://globalfire.tv/nj/07en/history/anne_frank_lie.htm

It was Wuerzburg, not Pforzheim.
And it was 140 Anne's, rather than 50 Anne Frank's.

My apologies.

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That would be the Wuerzburg which was and is an important rail hub, and so again a legitimate target?

I seem to have missed your post explaining the military value of the Annex?

Also the military value of conducting the Blitz?

Or is the problem that you do not even recognize those terms, I'd be happy to explain them...
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[TSR]

If nobody comes up with a counter hypothesis than I declare the H-word riddle as being solved and can we go for a beer before reparations talks will be started.

Ummmm. The "counter hypothesis" has been established by generations of historians, doing actual research as opposed to a random ignorant racist unilaterally declaring victory based on that ignorance and citation to known liars, and proposing to impotently demand changes to the government of a country of which zie is not a citizen which has offended zir bigotry.

Pretty much the definition of an epic fail.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Really? You've been 'studying' the holocaust for 18 months and you've never heard of underground factories? This is another 'typo' right?

Since you are such a know-it-all...

what according to you was the ethnic background of these more than 6 million slave laborers from Europe, who according to the NYT were liberated in 1945?

At least 2 Jews, Grossman and Kros. Right?

You think they were the only Jews? How big a part of these 6 million you think were Jews? Millions probably, right? But according to orthodoxy they should have been exterminated!

It looks like something is terribly wrong with orthodoxy. It predictably was all war propaganda.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I have repeatedly asked my opponents for the name of one person who was gassed. They could not.

That is not surprising if you read this article.

There were in fact autopsies carried out by the western alllies, in more than 20 German camps.

Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors. [1]

Dr. Larson's findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." [2] And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, [3] confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered." [4]

Originally the gassing story was applied to German camps as well. But after alllied doctors had established that this was not the case, the story was shifted towards Polish camps, which were conveniently out of reach of alllied investigators.

The Soviets had less scruples about upholding the story.

Well, until 1991 that is, until the crash of the system, my opponents are so keen to defend as morally superior to that of the Nazis. Because after the crash, Leuchter and Rudolf came along and presented results in par with those of American forensic investigators in German camps in 1945.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Ummmm. The "counter hypothesis" has been established by generations of historians, doing actual research as opposed to a random ignorant racist unilaterally declaring victory based on that ignorance and citation to known liars, and proposing to impotently demand changes to the government of a country of which zie is not a citizen which has offended zir bigotry.

Pretty much the definition of an epic fail.

"zir bigotry" is good!

But TSR is not denying the veracity of the NYT article! But the official story was that all Jews were transported to the big camps in Poland, where the majority was gassed on arrival, and oh, a small number was admittedly used as slave workers in factories neighbouring camps like Birkenau.

That turns out not to be true. Millions were working all over Germany. How did they get there? Directly from Western-Europe? Never heard of that. It looks like that they were all deported to great hubs like Auschwitz, in conformity with the 'official story', but next were distributed over hundreds of smaller hidden camps/factories with a typical size of 1000 workers.

 

[9/11-investigator]

USA Today, 2006

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-19-holocaust-papers_x.htm

"We have identified somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 camps and ghettos of various categories," said Geoffrey Megargee of the Holocaust Museum in Washington, who is compiling a seven-volume encyclopedia of these detention centers.

Gareth sneeringly pretended to know this all, but holocaust researchers discovered this only relatively recent. So where holocaust researchers used to be content with the extermination-in-a-few-camps story, now all of a sudden there turns out to be 20,000 additional camps. One wonders with which people these 20,000 additional camps were populated with. Could it be with those people, who before were hypothesized to have left this world via the chimney?

Looks like it.

From the USA Today article:

Yehuda Bauer, professor of Holocaust Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem:

"There is a great deal of very interesting material on a very large number of concentration camps that we really don't know much about," he said. "It may contain surprises. We don't know. It has material that nobody's ever seen."

Sounds like Yehuda is preparing us for some surprises and that he perfectly knows in what direction these surprises might point.

To critics who accuse them of being tightfisted with their information, the Red Cross and ITS counter that they have to abide by German privacy laws and protect the reputations of victims whether alive or dead. They say the files may contain unsubstantiated allegations against victims, and that opening up to researchers would distract ITS from its main task of providing documentation to survivors or victims' relatives.

To me this sounds like a lame excuse for preventing the public to know what really happened.

Another subject is the sheer scope of the Holocaust system. The files will support new research from other sources showing that the network of concentration camps, ghettos and labor camps was nearly three times more extensive than previously thought.

But since the number of Jews in the occupied territories is more or less known, this implies that a large number of Jews ended up in this network, rather than in the gas chamber.

(Thanks to SevenUp/Codoh)

 

[Gaspode]

Some posts moved to AAH.

Remember to address the argument, not the arguer.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode

 

[Wroclaw]

Nuremberg

I have a fairly simple question. I've looked through some of the posts on this thread — not all — and I see that the person defending the "revisionist" point of view states that Nuremberg verdicts can be dismissed as proof anyone's guilt because they were communist show trials.

Fine.

I would ask our interlocutor, then, to address the Einsatzgruppen Trial. This was the ninth war crimes trial held in Nuremberg, but it was not presided over by the IMT. Rather, it was tried before a U.S. military court. Among the tribunal of judges hearing the case was Michael Musmanno of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, who famously told the defendants that he would not limit their defense strategies except to bar them from using penguins as part of their defense — and then stipulating he'd even allow penguins if they could be proved relevant.

The defendants were found guilty on all counts, except for two who were found guilty of only one charge. Four were hanged; the remainder of the defendants who had received death sentences had them commuted. All defendants still alive in 1958 were released.

So I'd like to know what procedural errors, if any, our friend is able to find with this particular trial. If none exist, then why may this not be deemed proof of guilt?

 

[9/11-investigator]

For future reference:

Tree-felling at Treblinka

The Einsatzgruppen and the Holocaust

Halfway Between Reality and Myth: Hitler's Ten-Year War on the Jews Reconsidered

Origins and Functions of the Birkenau Camp

The “Nazi Extermination Camp” of Sobibor in the Context of the Demjanjuk Case

Genocide at Nuremberg

The Truth About the Gas Chambers?

Evidence for the Presence of “Gassed” Jews in the Eastern Territories, Part 1

Evidence for the Presence of "Gassed" Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 2

 

[TSR]

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This just struck me, on a review of the thread.

Niney quotes, regarding Anne Frank:
"If she had merely been any German girl of the same age, there would be nothing to talk about."

Ummmmm. She *was* merely a German girl.

Forced from her home by the Nazis.

Then hunted down by those same Nazis in her new home and sent to a camp.

If other German girls were treated this way, and wrote about it as eloquently as she did, then yes there would be something to talk about.

Got any non-Jewish German girls who were treated this way, Niney?
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[9/11-investigator]

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Niney

Personal attack noted. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Ummmmm. She *was* merely a German girl.

She was Jewish, not German.

Forced from her home by the Nazis.

Then hunted down by those same Nazis in her new home and sent to a camp.

If other German girls were treated this way, and wrote about it as eloquently as she did, then yes there would be something to talk about.

Got any non-Jewish German girls who were treated this way, Niney?
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Yes. 12 million Germans who had lived for centuries in their lands in the East were hunted down and driven towards the West by Soviets, Poles and Czechs. Millions died in the process, girls included.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Just take an average page from the IMT procedings:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp

Here a colonel Smirnov is piling up one preposterous lie after other against the Germans:

A machine for the manufacture of soap was completed some time in March or April 1944. The British prisoners of war had constructed the building in which it was housed in June 1942. The machine itself was installed by a civilian firm from Danzig by the name of AJRD. It consisted, as far as I remember, of an electrically heated tank in which bones of the corpses were mixed with some acid and melted down.

A complete fabrication.

I end my quotation here, and I call the attention of the Tribunal to Page 136 on the reverse side of the document book; this is from a report of the Polish Government, which shows that the Camp Sobibur was founded during the first and second liquidation of the Jewish ghetto. But the extermination on a large scale in this camp really started at the beginning of 1943. In this same report, in the last paragraph on Page 136 of the document book, we may read that Camp Belsen was founded in 1940; but it was in 1942 that the special electrical appliances were built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special way; there they were killed.

Nobody will dare to repeat these lies.

I present to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USSR-4 (Document Number USSR-4) the report of the Extraordinary State Commission of the Soviet Union for the investigation of the murder of people by means of spreading typhus epidemics... Thirdly, they placed in these camps thousands of typhus patients who were brought from various temporarily occupied regions of the Bielorussian S.S.R., especially for this purpose.

The Soviets are saying that Germans on purpose put people with typhus among healthy people in order to make the latter sick. In reality the Germans desperately fought against typhus with all means, including fumugation 'gas chambers'. These very gas chambers later were the foundation upon which the extermination tales were built.

Poor America, these pages are going to haunt you forever. The IMT was not designed to survive the internet.

 

[IDB87]

The Soviets are saying that Germans on purpose put people with typhus among healthy people in order to make the latter sick. In reality the Germans desperately fought against typhus with all means, including fumugation 'gas chambers'. These very gas chambers later were the foundation upon which the extermination tales were built.

Do we have a time line for when construction began on these fumigation gas chambers and when the outbreak of typhus occurred?

 

[Wroclaw]

Just take an average page from the IMT procedings:

{remainder deleted}

Was that supposed to address the Einsatzgruppen trial? I hope not, because those aren't quotes from same.

I purposely chose the Einsatzgruppen trial for two reasons. First, it used a different standard of justice than many of the IMT proceedings for reasons that include but are not limited to its inclusion of Judge Musmanno. Second, the testimony specifically is related to acts of mass murder of Jews.

So will you address this?

 

[TSR]

double post

 

[TSR]

She was Jewish, not German.

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She was German by nationality and Jewish by religion.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, except when your buddies tried to redefine what it means to be German.

In case you haven't noticed, this attempt failed.
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Yes. 12 million Germans who had lived for centuries in their lands in the East were hunted down and driven towards the West by Soviets, Poles and Czechs. Millions died in the process, girls included.

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And your documentation that *** before the war *** these were "their lands," that these people considered themselves German *** before the war ***, and that they were hunted down and driven by the Poles, Czechs and Soviets *** before the war ***?

Which camps were they deported to after having to flee their homes?

Can you give me a *single* name of one of these girls?

No?

Double standard much?

And BTW, are you *sure* you want to cite de Zayas? I've read him, you obviously have not. Be careful with your answer. You may want to actually take a look at "Die Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle" before you answer.
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