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Ed 737 Max Crashes (was Shutdown caused Boeing crash.)
- Thread starter Bob001
- Start date
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Are you still blaming the government shutdown for this, then?
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
And from what I have read, the software is not really working all that well anyway.
Serously, in the end the 737 Max is simply a bad design.
Serously, in the end the 737 Max is simply a bad design.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
I'm not buying that.
When a design change involves repositioning of the engines and refinement of the nacelle design to a degree that it causes a big enough change to the CoM to make the aircraft's nose pitch up enough for the designers to feel the need to add specialist flight control software to stop it happening, that is a MAJOR design change, and it ought to be fully explained in the FCOM.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
I think its both.
I might be pre-empting things here, but assuming it is MCAS that caused the difficulty the pilots had with controlling the aircraft I'm going to go right ahead and call early what I think the conclusion of the investigation will be.
CAUSE
- Pilot error
CONTRIBUTING FACTORS
- Insufficient training by the airline and by Boeing.
- Poor documentation by Boeing
- Delays in certification by the FAA due to the US Government shutdown in 2019
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
If they were trained, retrained or briefed about it, but it seems they may not have been. Plenty of Max 8 pilots are claiming they have heard little or nothing from Boeing.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...716fda-45c7-11e9-90f0-0ccfeec87a61_story.html
Nothing on the MCAS
After the Ethiopian Airlines crash Sunday, Boeing said it would update flight-control software, provide more training, introduce “enhancements” to external sensors that measure the direction of an aircraft and make changes to how MCAS is activated.
But two pilots who attended the meeting with Boeing in November after the Lion Air crash said pilots had suggested that the company take these actions at that time.
“Whatever level of training they decided on [before the Lion Air crash], it resulted in an iPad course that I took for less than an hour,” Tajer, the American Airlines pilot, said. “A lot of pilots here at American did that course.”
But he said the course did not cover the new MCAS system. “There was nothing on the MCAS because even American didn’t know about that. It was just about the display scenes and how the engines are a little different,” he said.
After the Ethiopian Airlines crash Sunday, Boeing said it would update flight-control software, provide more training, introduce “enhancements” to external sensors that measure the direction of an aircraft and make changes to how MCAS is activated.
But two pilots who attended the meeting with Boeing in November after the Lion Air crash said pilots had suggested that the company take these actions at that time.
“Whatever level of training they decided on [before the Lion Air crash], it resulted in an iPad course that I took for less than an hour,” Tajer, the American Airlines pilot, said. “A lot of pilots here at American did that course.”
But he said the course did not cover the new MCAS system. “There was nothing on the MCAS because even American didn’t know about that. It was just about the display scenes and how the engines are a little different,” he said.
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quadraginta
Becoming Beth
Drewbot
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2007
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- 7,752
Funny, because the people travelling this week are mad at Trump for grounding the planes and not giving them 48 hours notice to change equipment.
Cancelled flights, being rescheduled on other flights, THANKS TRUMP.
Can you imagine if Trump had said "EFFECTIVE IN 48 HOURS, I AM GROUNDING THE PLANES" and one crashed? He would have been skewered.
Cancelled flights, being rescheduled on other flights, THANKS TRUMP.
Can you imagine if Trump had said "EFFECTIVE IN 48 HOURS, I AM GROUNDING THE PLANES" and one crashed? He would have been skewered.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Which brings us back to the problem of why is this even Trump's fault? The manufacturer knew there were problems. The airlines knew there were problems. They would have kept flying the planes, in spite of the known problems, yes?
If the airlines weren't anticipating a scenario for grounding the planes, and if they hadn't already drafted a contingency plan for changing equipment in that scenario, then they're idiots.
****, now I need to research what airlines are flying 737 MAX planes, and stay off all their planes until they demonstrate some level of head-outside-of-ass.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
The fix that is being written right now does everything the original piece of software should have done in the first place. They question is, why did Boeing not get it right the first time? They already use software that is tolerant of AoA failures in the 787 and 777 and did that because it made their product safer.
The grandfather rort that Boeing has been exploiting on the 737 has really caused them a major problem now and killed people.
A very interesting link here https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/the-world-pulls-the-andon-cord-on-the-737-max/
Drewbot
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2007
- Messages
- 7,752
Agree.
**** United, American and Southwest do have some in their fleet. Delta does not.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Alaska also does not.
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2006
- Messages
- 54,796
This is just a claim to try to justify the existence of the FAA and its excessive regulations and intrusions on business. They are clearly all useless and worthless and properly should be fired like all government regulators. That is the conservative answer to this.
Drewbot
Philosopher
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- Sep 13, 2007
- Messages
- 7,752
Hallucination duly noted.
Boeing however, if they know of a fix, should not be waiting for the FAA to approve the fix, before grounding the planes.
They should ground the planes, pending the FAA approval.
Of American based airlines:
Alaska Air has 32 on order, but is not currently flying any.
American Airlines has 100 on order, has 22 in its fleet.
Ryan Air has 135 on order, but is not currently flying any.
Southwest has 280 on order, has 31 in its fleet.
United has 136 on order, has 14 in its fleet.
2 have been delivered to individuals/companies for use as personal or corporate jets. I assume they would be affected by the grounding.
I cannot find any carrier world wide that is flying only the 737 Max (some small budget carriers only fly one make/model of plane to keep costs down.)
If I was a woman I would not be happy with people wanting gawd to be thought of as female. Have you read the thing? Definitely a man-child with serious hangups.
My truck better start today or I'll be very mad, Trumpdammit.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
That's fine for my purposes.
My concern right now is not so much staying off of 737-MAX flights (though that's also a concern for me). My concern right now is staying the **** away from airlines that continued to operate the 737-MAX between the time they knew it had problems and the time the planes got grounded because of the problems they already knew it had.
To me, that speaks to an institutional laziness that almost certainly extends beyond their fleet of MAXs. If I can't trust Southwest to do the right thing with a 737-MAX, how can I trust them to be doing the right thing with a 737-800?
On the other hand, if you were to find an airline that had MAXs in service, and voluntarily grounded them when they understood the problem, I'd be happy to give them my business.
Meanwhile, there's airlines like Alaska, that don't have any MAXs in their fleet anyway, and haven't yet gotten a track record of bad behavior with their other planes. So they can keep my business for the time being. The 737-700/800/900 family is reportedly a more reliable and proven plane, so I'm not yet ready to give up on Boeing entirely. Plus it would be almost impossible to fly anywhere in the western hemisphere if I did that.
Which might not be a bad idea.
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
Presumably you are a man. How happy are you with this Supreme Deity normally being depicted as male?
quadraginta
Becoming Beth