19 Hotshots Killed in Yarnell Hill Fire

[DragonLady]

One of those things is making their own weather.

Yes; exactly. When a fire covers a hundred acres or more, the hot air creates a wind of it's own that can change direction at any second.

At 7:55 p.m. MDT @ArizonaNewsnet reported “The fire has engulfed the town of Yarnell. Multiple structures burning.”
This was apparently caused by a 180-degree shift in the direction of the wind. From 10 a.m. until 4 p.m. local time at the Stanton RAWS weather station four miles south of the fire, the wind was from the south-southwest or southwest, but at 5 p.m. it began blowing from the north-northeast at 22 to 26 mph gusting up to 43 mph. This may have pushed the fire into the town.
If there were any firefighters on the south or southwest side of the fire between 4 and 5 p.m., who previously had the wind at their backs for seven hours, they may have suddenly and unexpectedly found themselves at the head of the fire. This is sometimes caused by a passing or developing thunderstorm with strong outflowing downdrafts.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/06/30/arizona-yarnell-fire/

 

[lionking]

Yes; exactly. When a fire covers a hundred acres or more, the hot air creates a wind of it's own that can change direction at any second.



http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/06/30/arizona-yarnell-fire/

Before our near disaster, I thought bushfires moved only as fast as the wind. Of course, in their advance they consume oxygen in front of them and move far more quickly. I wasn't exaggerating with my earlier comment about a 200kph firefront.

 

[Travis]

Wild fires are natural and do things people only used to structure fires might not suspect. One of those things is making their own weather. They can produce wind effects that can carry burning embers for long distances. How long of a fire break is resonable to cut? Miles wide breaks?

Well in the fire I alluded to back in 1987 burning embers carried as far as 12-15 kilometers in front of the main fire front creating numerous spot fires that needed to be contained themselves.

Correct Travis. In the aftermath of Black Saturday I linked to, the local authorities went overboard with controlled burns and firebreaks. This has eased up in more recent years. As a resident in a fire zone, I accept the risk, and am eternally grateful to the firefighters (mainly volunteer) who serve to protect us.

Controlled burns are a huge bonus. I live in wildfire country myself and one of the biggest steps that officials take these days are controlled burns in the fall. Doing so regularly has made it so we have not had a major firestorm since the 1987 disaster.

By the way if you ever saw the Spielberg movie Always you saw the fire I speak of on film.

 

[Doubt]

Before our near disaster, I thought bushfires moved only as fast as the wind. Of course, in their advance they consume oxygen in front of them and move far more quickly. I wasn't exaggerating with my earlier comment about a 200kph firefront.

Brushfires would be one type of wild fire. Typically in grasslands. Woodland fires usually move a little slower.

I have seen small ones back in the '80s when I was stationed at Ft. Ord California. Trips to the inland firing rangers in the dry months often were cut short when tracers set fires. They do move as fast as the wind. We had lots of small fire breaks and that usually stopped them before they could get big. But this was a relatively small post with lots of natural breaks in addition to the human cut ones. Sometimes even the small ones would jump from one section to another.

The one thing that got me was every now and then military units would get called out to help fight fires. I was in the engineers and we never got the call. We already had half of the equipment but they would call out infantry units who had nothing of their own to help out with.

 

[lionking]

Brushfires would be one type of wild fire. Typically in grasslands. Woodland fires usually move a little slower.

I'm talking about bushfires, which is an Australian term for fires in gumtree forests, and they can indeed exceed 200kph.

http://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/dsp_more_info.cfm?CON_ID=1219&CAT_ID=612

Microbursts are quite localised and usually last for only 10 or 20 minutes. They can generate winds of well over 200 kph

This was the finding of a judicial finding.

I'm just making the point that when conditions are extreme, firefighters simply can't escape.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Cars are also only so much help in moving people to safety, in the Australia fires mentioned the fire overtook cars speeding away and left nothing of them but ashen frames. The two who died in my city were loading their car for evacuation when smoke overcame them (I'm assuming, the investigation is ongoing).

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Protecting people property from fire?

Valid question. Why are we risking lives to protect property?

 

[Tiktaalik]

I'm dreading going in to work today. I've been a wildland firefighter on an as-needed basis since the early 1980s and I currently work with a number of wildland firefighters. My next-door neighbor is in charge of our crew here. I know they're all just going to be devastated. It's likely at least some of them knew at least some of this hot-shot crew or have at least been on a fire with them. I remember Storm King and what an impact that had on the firefighting community. What a nightmare for everybody involved.

 

[Bikewer]

We police officers consider the firefighters to be our colleagues, we are often working side-by-side. Each group think the other is crazy for what they do.

There's a great song about a similar incident that occured back in 1949 with the "Smoke Jumpers".
Cold Missouri Waters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qomNoN7MCYg

 

[Psi Baba]

When I turned on the television this morning, and saw the caption, "19 firefighters killed in Arizona," at first I was thinking it had to be some kind of year-to-date tally or something along those lines (not that that makes it much less tragic). It took a few minutes for me to realize that this was in one single incident.

 

[patchbunny]

It sounds like they're just wishful thinking.

A friend of mine had to deploy one years ago. Came out singed but otherwise ok.

It depends on the magnitude of the fire that's about to overrun you. I recall from the last bunch of smoke jumpers that died the fire swept over them with such speed that it ripped their tents away, leaving them exposed.

 

[sgtbaker]

19 Arizona firefighters killed in one of nation's deadliest blazes



All 19 had deployed person fire shelters and most were found inside. This is the worst hotshot disaster that comes to my mind anyway - 15 were killed at Alder Creek and around the same number in the infamous Mann Gulch fire in the 40s/50s. More recently 14 were killed in the 1994 Strom King fire in Colorado.

I didn't realize that "hotshots" was a term used to describe the group. I am very relieved to learn that you weren't being smug about people dying a horrible death. My heart goes out to their family and friends.

 

[crescent]

The US has cars and a number of other forms of technology for moving people. Given the risks involved wouldn't it make more sense to maintain perminant firebreaks around major settlements and let the rest burn as it will.

We know that wildfire is a natural part of the forrest lifecycle and that stopping it causes further problems in the long run. We also know that attempting to stop it carries a non zero risk of killing people. That being the case it is reasonable to ask if thecost benefit analysis actauly supports attempting to stop the things.

These wildland fires can jump eight-lane highways. Short of paving the western U.S., permanent firebreaks will not be sufficient. After all, the area is criss-crossed with permanent firebreaks, in the form of roads. That seemed to do nothing to even slow this fire.

Keep in mind, this is Arizona, in the desert southwest. Fire is a part of the ecology in most places, but not everywhere, not in the desert. In desert, there were few fires until about 100 years ago when non-native annual grasses became established, filling what had been bare ground between the native trees and shrubs. When the grass burns first, it burns off all of the native trees and shrubs. After that, the grass has a fire cycle of once every three to five years - this prevents re-establishment of native trees and shrubs.

If we con't control fires in the desert, we will gradually lose all of the Saguaro cacti in the Sonoran Desert and all of the Joshua Tree in the Mojave Desert.

So, if we let all fires go, and the smoke causes air quality concerns that threaten lives in urban areas, is that okay? Should we set parameters for what to allow to burn and what not to? (Hint, we already do that).

I am all for getting more fire on the ground overall - but not everywhere. In my experience, modern fire managers love to allow natural fires to burn, and they love to do prescribed fires - but only where it is safe to do so and consistent with the natural ecology. This fire in AZ is neither.

 

[DragonLady]

The fire is now 15 miles from my home. We're much afraid we may have to evacuate. Looking out my windows, all I can see is white smoke behind the hills like a huge fog bank.

 

[Cylinder]

I didn't realize that "hotshots" was a term used to describe the group. I am very relieved to learn that you weren't being smug about people dying a horrible death. My heart goes out to their family and friends.

Right. I want to be very clear that I was using this as a vocational term.

 

[geni]

Yup. These things can proceed scary fast, and unpredictably to boot. Here is a simple question for geni. Why did those deceased firefighters not simply back off, walk away from the fire, sprint away from the flames? Why is it that they used the last ditch strategy of digging in, in the hope that the flames would pass over them? Why not simply walk away from the conflagration? A moments thought should give you those answers.

Because they had been ordered to be far to close to the flames to make that viable. Now rather than appeals to emotion can we see some actual numbers on the cost benifit analysis of that risk?

 

[Swagomatic]

This is just terrible. I was hiking up in that area in the early spring this year. What a tragedy.

It's so dry out, anywhere around here is at risk. I hope people will be very careful with their fireworks this week.

 

[paiute]

Demonstrations of a personal fire shelter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_hpYdFjf2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJsY6foLh8o

Seems like the oxygen would be depleted before the heat was fatal, but the combination would make survival unlikely.

 

[pgwenthold]

What I find most staggering about this report is that these folks are absolutely brilliant when it comes to fighting fire. They know about fire, and they understand better than anyone how to fight the fire as safely as possible. Yes, it's a risky job, but there is no one who knows how to do it better. And they are as adamant as can be about doing it as safely as possible. You don't get 19 of them acting carelessly. For the whole group to get caught like that says that something pretty significant had to happen.

Do they have any recordings of radio chatter, I wonder?

 

[Tiktaalik]

Reports are now saying that there were 19 shelters deployed and 19 bodies, but not all of the bodies were in shelters. I'm interpreting that to mean there were very strong winds in the area that ripped the shelters up and away, although I could be wrong. I've deployed shelters in training probably 30 times, a couple times with big fans blowing to simulate windy conditions, and they are very hard to control and get under in those circumstances. They don't have floors, but kind of tabs that you hold down with your hands and feet when you are stretched out.

Fire is an incredibly complex reaction. We cannot absolutely predict what is going to happen in every circumstance. Undoubtedly it will come out that there were other decisions that could have been made, but that will be with 20-20 hindsight. No one wants to die in a fire, and hotshots are well trained to keep an eye on what's happening and the 'Watch-Out' situations. The best we can hope for now is that the lessons learned will help prevent this kind of situation in the future.