• Due to ongoing issues caused by Search, it has been temporarily disabled
  • Please excuse the mess, we're moving the furniture and restructuring the forum categories

[Continuation] The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Since when was it in the hands of the Swedish Prosecutor ...

Since when was *what* in the hands of the Swedish prosecutor?

To decide to prosecute or not prosecute someone for potential crimes within their jurisdiction, sure. To tell someone else to produce or not produce a report? I don't think so. What is it that you imagine the Swedish prosecutor to be attempting to do?
 
Luck...? Whilst it is useful to understand the general reasons for accidents, reading the above, anyone would think the sudden drowning of up to a thousand people within half an hour was an everyday occurence.
Only if they had an incomplete understanding of the English language. Do you really think that:
You might get away with operating a vessel in waters it was never designed to operate in, in bad weather, when poorly maintained, and in an unbalanced trim condition, straight into oncoming wind and waves, at full speed, with you and your crew slacking off and disregarding warning signs, if you were very lucky.
describes an everyday state of affairs?
 
Jutta Rabe, Harri Ruotsalainen, Margus Kurm and Henrik Evertsson, et al, are hardly 'armchair detectives'.

You. I'm talking about you. You're the armchair detective, and you're worse than useless. You have no idea what you're talking about, yet you seem to think everyone should listen to you.

A virtual thank you to these guys and all those who have been determined to bring out into the open the truth of what happened to the M/V Estonia.

No. I know far more about investigating transportation accidents than all those people put together. They're not tireless soldiers looking for the truth. They're conspiracy theorists, and we've shown at length in this thread why they're wrong.
 
...reading the above, anyone would think the sudden drowning of up to a thousand people within half an hour was an everyday occurence.

No one is claiming that. However, from my perspective as a trained and licensed professional with actual experience in forensic engineering, I can say it's an accurate description of the mindset that underlies the vast majority of transportation accidents.

No matter how much you try to Vixensplain my profession to me, your grasping at any and every conspiracy theory is not a substitute for knowing how things actually work.
 
You are not even familiar with Rabe. You did a 'cock of the walk' thing and declared her 'an insane crank' without knowing anything about her and as if you are the arbiter.

You were asked and invited to defend Rabe with facts. The best you could come up with was a string of assumptions that she somehow "must" have done her job and been a good journalist, and a secondary conspiracy theory of your own for why she didn't provide evidence for her conspiracy theory that the captain was shot in the head.

So now that your unhinged defense of Rabe is back on the table, please tell us how we're supposed to believe you're as even-handed and fair-minded as you claim when you're clearly shilling for conspiracy authors who don't provide evidence for their claims.

As for whether we can evaluate Rabe, the answer is yes. We're quite capable of recognizing tabloid tactics such as relying on unnamed sources for sensational claims.
 
You were asked and invited to defend Rabe with facts. The best you could come up with was a string of assumptions that she somehow "must" have done her job and been a good journalist, and a secondary conspiracy theory of your own for why she didn't provide evidence for her conspiracy theory that the captain was shot in the head.

So now that your unhinged defense of Rabe is back on the table, please tell us how we're supposed to believe you're as even-handed and fair-minded as you claim when you're clearly shilling for conspiracy authors who don't provide evidence for their claims.

As for whether we can evaluate Rabe, the answer is yes. We're quite capable of recognizing tabloid tactics such as relying on unnamed sources for sensational claims.

Indeed, the desperate attempts to deflect are so obvious it's painful.

I ask for support of Rabe and her nonsense and instead get accused of never having heard of her and being a meanie for no reason. It's farcical, particularly considering everyone in this argument is ostensibly an adult.
 
The book was nothing at all to do with 'pulp fiction' it was a descriptive narrative...

Including uncorroborated claims of conspiracy.

...together with the laboratory reports , graphs and tables of international metallurgy labs, and a reproduction of a report written by naval explosions expert, Brian Braidwood and naval expert Michael Fellowes.

Asked and answered. When last we left this story, you were on the hook to produce photographs of the key pages confirming your claim that the book includes the full forensic reports, not just the cherry-picked summaries available from other sources.

Anyone can staple lab reports to a bad spy novel and sell it to an unsuspecting audience.

How do you work out you have more experience of sailing than specifically, myself?

In my case, by reading what you say.
 
I ask for support of Rabe and her nonsense and instead get accused of never having heard of her and being a meanie for no reason. It's farcical, particularly considering everyone in this argument is ostensibly an adult.

Ironically we usually know more about her sources than she does. But once having relied on them, she's in a dilemma. She won't let them go and she can't defend them. This is why armchair detectives are worse than useless.
 
Ironically we usually know more about her sources than she does. But once having relied on them, she's in a dilemma. She won't let them go and she can't defend them. This is why armchair detectives are worse than useless.

Indeed, including having had actual conversations with at least one of them, but when their lack of expertise is brought up it's somehow a personal matter, as if that makes any sense whatsoever.

It's not a personality clash to point out when someone is utterly incompetent.
 
Do you really think that [operational deviance] describes an everyday state of affairs?

In a sense, it does. Shipping accidents including foundering happen literally every day. When they do, we almost always find that the vessels have been operated complacently in one way or another that chronically invades the safety margin. There's rarely any difference in perceived safety between operating something well outside the safety margin and operating well within it. That's the danger.

When we studied non-passenger shipping operations for the 20th century, we found that shipping early in the century incurred a certain accident rate. We expected that the explosion in navigation, communication, and electronic controls in the mid-to-late 20th century would have reduced the accident rate—that was the intent, anyway. What we found was that the accident rated remained unchanged. The additional margin provided by advancements in engineering was being used to increase production efficiency.

For example, ships naturally slow down when they enter hazard areas because they can't know precisely where they are and precisely where the hazards are. Going slow increases their capacity to avoid danger. But it delays their arrival; this is not favorable. With the ability to know their own position more precisely, and the ability to locate and avoid hazards, ships can go much faster, but with more at stake now if they're somehow wrong. Rather than reduce the effect of hazard and decrease the accident rate, the industry chose to accept the same accident rate in exchange for greater production efficiency. This is because production metrics generally are incremental.

The normalization of risk is a prong in the same fork as the normalization of deviance. The normalization of risk says, "This thing is always this dangerous, no matter what we do." We then apply a somewhat amoral calculation to what we think our responsibilities are. Driving on the motorway incurs a certain inevitable risk, we say. Oh, we have airbags now? That means I can drive a little faster while maintaining the same risk I demonstrated I could tolerate before airbags. When we say we want safety at all costs, we deceive ourselves. The receipts show we generally emphasize safety only temporarily in the wake of a prominent accident, whereafter the tolerance of risk drops back down to an invariant baseline.

The normalization of deviance says, "I didn't wreck my car today, so I must be driving safely." Or conversely, "I know the Check Engine light is on, but my car seems to be running fine so it can't be a big deal." And we press on. A month later we're standing by the side of the road, bonnet up, cursing what "suddenly" has happened to us.

P2015 on my car is an indication that a certain control is malfunctioning. The control enhances efficiency, but is not related to safety. The root cause, however, was rodents chewing on the vacuum lines the control relies upon for power. Astutely you should be wondering about what else the rodents are chewing on, so that you don't suddenly lose hydraulic pressure or coolant through chewed-upon weak spots in those similarly tasty rubber hoses: spots that suddenly burst when you're going 100 km/h down the freeway. Simply saying de minimis, "Well, my car runs fine if a little less efficiently," is a perfectly typical normalization of deviance that is an absolute disaster when applied to high-risk technology.

We fail on a daily basis to note how lucky we are because the safety margin is intentionally nonlinear and nonincremental, and our default is de minimis thinking. That's a fancy way of saying what I said above: the only observation that differs across the boundary of the safety margin is often the benign instrumentation that tells us we've crossed it. There may be other signs, such as having to hammer home the bolts that hold key components in place. But production pressure favors de minimis Band-Aid remedies: the bolt is in the right place now, so we must be safe, right? It favors exceptionalist thinking :— my ship won't sink, will it? My plane won't crash, will it? That misalignment was trying to tell us a story, just like the vacuum-hose breach was trying to tell us a story. Being disinterested in the story so long as the car runs or the visor closes or the plane can land safely with a door plug missing is usually attractive, but rarely wise.
 
You do know translations and summaries exist right? It reads like it. Its a badly thought out pulp spy novel, not serious journalism.
It advances conspiracy theories without evidence and Braidwood never saw the site, just the pictures. We went over this.

I answered this. Because I don't believe your stories about yourself. You routinely lie to make yourself seem more important than you are and routinely lie about what others say. Again, remember the IRA farce or the incident with the book I own?

What 'incident with the book [you] own'? It is clearly very important to you to disparage me at every turn. That reflects your insecurity. It is not for me to give your slurs the dignity of a response.

Likewise, in these parts, we do the Jante law here. We are not impressed by showing off, so your typically British sport of oneupmanship - i.e., your 'humble brag' (= pretending you are talking about me) of having a sailing certificate and sailing 'extensively' - doesn't impress and likewise, I shall not be 'putting you in your place' nor arousing good old British envy, by giving that comment the dignity of a response, either.

It matters not a jot that you think Rabe reads like a pulp spy novel, that is your prerogative - I do not believe for a minute you have read her book! - but your claim that that she is 'an insane crank' is just a spurious insult of the playground variety, that doesn't even reach the level of a logical fallacy.
 
This was all explained from the link I posted from the Swedish Prosecutor.

The Prosecutors have investigated the (reopened) legal case, and based on the information they have received from the combined Estonian/Swedish ongoing accident investigation, they have decided that there is no case to drive from the legal perspective.

The investigation performed by the Estonian Safety investigation Bureau together with the Swedish Accident Investigation Authority is still ongoing.

That is dated November 2023. The Swedish prosecutor refers to conclusions.
 
Only if they had an incomplete understanding of the English language. Do you really think that:

describes an everyday state of affairs?

Sweeping generalisations. My personal pet hate is the debating technique of the 'would, could, should' variety, where everything has an alternative explanation and everything can be rationalized so there is no problem to be solved at all. You can just shrug your shoulders and say, 'So what?' <shrug>. It's the '**** Happens' School of Thought and not far-removed from the 'What-If' philosophers of our world. It might work if this topic, 'The Sinking of the Estonia' were about abstract religious, philosophical, paranormal or conspiracy theories. But it is not, it is a simple current affairs, factual, news story. Nothing to do with whether you 'believe in it' or not.
 
You. I'm talking about you. You're the armchair detective, and you're worse than useless. You have no idea what you're talking about, yet you seem to think everyone should listen to you.



No. I know far more about investigating transportation accidents than all those people put together. They're not tireless soldiers looking for the truth. They're conspiracy theorists, and we've shown at length in this thread why they're wrong.

Well, that is good, as it shouldn't be me that is the topic.
 
It is clearly very important to you to disparage me at every turn. That reflects your insecurity.

No, it's important to challenge your claims where appropriate. In this case we note the paucity of substance in the source and question your reliance on it. You have a history of using unreliable sources that you do not vet and cannot understand. Your reluctance to participate in an evaluation of your sources—and rely instead on evasion and bullying—reflects your insecurity.

It matters not a jot that you think Rabe reads like a pulp spy novel, that is your prerogative

It matters quite a bit when the source is being advanced as factual and well-researched, and therefore worthy of attention.

I do not believe for a minute you have read her book! - but your claim that that she is 'an insane crank' is just a spurious insult of the playground variety, that doesn't even reach the level of a logical fallacy.

You were invited to show where she presented corroboration for the claims we have lately heard from her. You were unable to do so; you just assumed she did her homework, and then subsequently denied having made the assumption. You claim to be even-handed and fair-minded, but you are clearly shilling for a conspiracy theorist.

When we present reasons why a certain source cannot be considered authoritative or reliable, your blustery insistence that we must do so anyway is comical.
 
No one is claiming that. However, from my perspective as a trained and licensed professional with actual experience in forensic engineering, I can say it's an accurate description of the mindset that underlies the vast majority of transportation accidents.

No matter how much you try to Vixensplain my profession to me, your grasping at any and every conspiracy theory is not a substitute for knowing how things actually work.

Rationalization doesn't explain THIS accident. It is no good rationalizing it by saying, 'Oh, it must have been the wind, or a strong wave, or the crew were negligent or it was going too fast...**** happens! <shrug> ...next!'

That sort of answer might satisfy the intellectually lazy or the average incurious person more interested in other things but there people who ARE interested in the actual facts and not in some comforting pet formula as to 'why accidents happen'.
 
Well, that is good, as it shouldn't be me that is the topic.

You are the only topic.

The actual issues regarding the sinking of MS Estonia have been discussed multiple times at length and resolved to everyone's satisfaction but yours. The only question that remains is why you keep rehashing the same debunked nonsense in this epic thread. The answer is that you want attention. You seem to enjoy the role of armchair detective and want to relive it time and again, regardless of whether any new information or insight is achieved.

You owe us an explanation of why you keep raising the same questions we've answered over and over. There is no genuine controversy. You're not merely interested in the world around you, otherwise you'd take the opportunity to actually learn something about it. Convince us you deserve more attention that we would otherwise give to any other self-important, self-proclaimed expert.
 
Rationalization doesn't explain THIS accident.

No one is rationalizing anything.

That sort of answer might satisfy the intellectually lazy or the average incurious person...

I'm not the intellectually lazy one.

...there people who ARE interested in the actual facts and not in some comforting pet formula as to 'why accidents happen'.

I'm sure there are, but the evidence in this thread is that you are not one of them. I and others have tried for several hundred pages to correct your chronic misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the events in question. You have demonstrated instead that you will just latch onto any and all conspiracy theories if they propagate the discussion for another ten pages.

My professional training and experience includes determining why accidents happen. From that position I can confidently say you don't know what you're talking about.
 
You were asked and invited to defend Rabe with facts. The best you could come up with was a string of assumptions that she somehow "must" have done her job and been a good journalist, and a secondary conspiracy theory of your own for why she didn't provide evidence for her conspiracy theory that the captain was shot in the head.

So now that your unhinged defense of Rabe is back on the table, please tell us how we're supposed to believe you're as even-handed and fair-minded as you claim when you're clearly shilling for conspiracy authors who don't provide evidence for their claims.

As for whether we can evaluate Rabe, the answer is yes. We're quite capable of recognizing tabloid tactics such as relying on unnamed sources for sensational claims.


For crying out loud, Rabe enlisted the help of renowned experts in their field (Bemis, Braidwood, Fellowes) and even employed independent reputable forensic metallurgy labs.

You prefer the comfort of not having to give it much thought.

That is of course, your prerogative, but you cannot force that mindset onto others, just because they have a different view.
 
Indeed, the desperate attempts to deflect are so obvious it's painful.

I ask for support of Rabe and her nonsense and instead get accused of never having heard of her and being a meanie for no reason. It's farcical, particularly considering everyone in this argument is ostensibly an adult.

You lied and claimed you had read her book, that is how you know she is an 'insane crank'. I know you are lying because her book is in German and Swedish.

IOW my impression is that you have the erroneous belief that this topic is about 'believing' or 'not believing' so you nail your mast to the former, thinking it demonstrates what a great skeptic you are. No understanding of the issue needed, just wear a badge.
 
Including uncorroborated claims of conspiracy.



Asked and answered. When last we left this story, you were on the hook to produce photographs of the key pages confirming your claim that the book includes the full forensic reports, not just the cherry-picked summaries available from other sources.

Anyone can staple lab reports to a bad spy novel and sell it to an unsuspecting audience.



In my case, by reading what you say.

I am conscious of copyright law but I shall try to dig out an extract or two under the permissible grounds of a reasonable review for educational or discussion purposes. But no way will it be 16-pages.
 
Thanks, I'll have a look. It still says, 'preliminary' on the main page, which seems to indicate the Swedish prosecutor has seen a final report, yet this doesn't seem to have been released publicly.

Why would you jump to that conclusion? Why not go to the source that I have linked to, where you can read exactly what the Swedish prosecutor has based their decision on. (hint - it is not any form of unreleased final report from the accident investigation boards).
 
What 'incident with the book [you] own'?
Sea of Death, when you lied about what it said regarding hospital ships.
It is clearly very important to you to disparage me at every turn.
Nope, just pointing out that you've been caught in so many lies your word is meaningless and you're desperate to make yourself seem more important than you are so people take your conspiracy mongering nonsense seriously.
That reflects your insecurity. It is not for me to give your slurs the dignity of a response.
What slurs? That you're a liar who lies about herself to make you seem more important? But that's true and has been catalogued many times in threads passim.
Likewise, in these parts, we do the Jante law here. We are not impressed by showing off, so your typically British sport of oneupmanship - i.e., your 'humble brag' (= pretending you are talking about me) of having a sailing certificate
Its not humble bragging, nor is it bragging. I simply stated that i have some sailing experience and i think youre lying about yours.
and sailing 'extensively' -
You're lying again. Quote me saying I have sailed extensively. Go on, quote it.

You can't, because it's your fabrication. You're a liar.
doesn't impress and likewise, I shall not be 'putting you in your place' nor arousing good old British envy, by giving that comment the dignity of a response, either.
What are you talking about now? I have asked you to support Rabe by providing evidence for her wild conspiracy nonsense. That is a reasonable request, so support it and stop trying to deflect. Again, you're just pathetically bad at this.
It matters not a jot that you think Rabe reads like a pulp spy novel, that is your prerogative - I do not believe for a minute you have read her book! -
Have I claimed to have read the book itself? No. But I have read summaries of it, and I know that she is talking out of a different orifice than the one people typically talk out of. Her conclusions are unsupported, her theories wildly implausible if not outright impossible and they read like bad spy fiction.

Again, you have no idea how the intelligence community operates, how disaster investigations work or how bouncy calculations work to name but 3 things you've mangled in these threads, but you keep trying to pontificate on them as if you do. Why do you try to keep up the farcical bluster? No-one is buying it.
but your claim that that she is 'an insane crank' is just a spurious insult of the playground variety, that doesn't even reach the level of a logical fallacy.
No, it follows directly from her making insane claims with no evidence.
 
Sweeping generalisations.

No. From my well-experienced perspective, it is a very accurate presentation of the sorts of conditions that persist and from which accidents such as MS Estonia invariably arise. These are documented facts, regardless of your desire to ignore them and the suggestion that you're smart to do so. You've presented nothing to contradict the conclusion that the loss of MS Estonia was a "normal accident," in Charles Perrow's terminology.

My personal pet hate is the debating technique of the 'would, could, should' variety, where everything has an alternative explanation and everything can be rationalized so there is no problem to be solved at all.

Oh, knock it off.

You fasten on each conspiracy theory du jour without respect to any sort of viable alternate theory or even consistency on a daily basis. You're not trying to solve a problem. It's been solved, and by better people than you. You're trying to prolong the illusion of a problem because it validates your "armchair detective" role and makes you feel important. It's all about you.

But it is not, it is a simple current affairs, factual, news story. Nothing to do with whether you 'believe in it' or not.

From the "simple current affairs" perspective there really is nothing to see here. It was an accident. It was investigated thoroughly and the root causes found. The root causes include chronic problems in engineering and transportation that we practitioners are quite familiar with. We can talk about them accurately and knowledgeably without "dismissing" anything. Being able to see patterns in failure is a strength, not a dodge.

On the other hand, you seem to desperately want there to be something more and nefarious to it, apparently so you can pat yourself on back for being so clever in discovering it. It's literally all about what you are choosing to believe, often in contravention of self-evident fact, and usually in contravention of what you said you believed yesterday.
 
Last edited:
You lied and claimed you had read her book, that is how you know she is an 'insane crank'. I know you are lying because her book is in German and Swedish.

IOW my impression is that you have the erroneous belief that this topic is about 'believing' or 'not believing' so you nail your mast to the former, thinking it demonstrates what a great skeptic you are. No understanding of the issue needed, just wear a badge.
No I didn't. Please, quote me claiming I have read her book.

I did say that translations and summaries exist, and I've read the summaries.

Once again your view is wildly divergent from reality.
 
For crying out loud, Rabe enlisted...

That doesn't change the fact that you merely assumed she had done her homework. You told us that's what you did, then you tried to tell us you didn't.

We've addressed the other contributions you mention at length. I want to hear from you why you think you can tell us you're fair-minded about Rabe and at the same time just give her the benefit of the doubt for sensationalist claims such as the captain being shot in the head.
 
I am conscious of copyright law but I shall try to dig out an extract or two under the permissible grounds of a reasonable review for educational or discussion purposes. But no way will it be 16-pages.

If you want to convince us that you—and only you—have read Braidwood's report in its entirey, and because it was included in Rabe's book, then you have the burden to produce suitable evidence of it.

Every forensic report includes a summary of findings and conclusions. Start with that. But generally you will need to show us something that doesn't exist in the already-available summaries of Braidwood's work.

As for the substance of Braidwood's work, it has already been disputed by other authority presented in this thread.
 
...even employed independent reputable forensic metallurgy labs.

Braidwood's analysis of the diving footage is available and has been evaluated by other diving experts. The flaws with it have been presented here, but you ignored them. I addressed Braidwood's summary of the metallurgical data and have shown several times how it does not support the conclusions Braidwood wishes to draw from it. You have been unable to address any of that,

What you say you have—that no one else has—are the actual reports of the forensic laboratories upon which Braidwood based his findings. They were apparently appendices to Braidwood's original report, but were omitted when it was digitized. These you say contain the information showing that Braidwood's questionable conclusions are nevertheless defensible, and therefore only you can know that for sure.

You're making a lot of hay out of what you think those reports contain and prove. But let's face it: you're not competent to evaluate them, or to determine whether Braidwood correctly evaluated them. And you seem reluctant to get the information into our hands so that we can address your claims or draw our own conclusions from positions of expertise. Yes, I saw into ordering the book for myself, but it's only available from a single overseas publisher with whom I can't seem to find a way to arrange payment.
 
Last edited:
I have noticed a post wherein I appear to claim that her book reads like spy pulp rather than the ideas and theories in it which is what I meant. So I apologise for clumsy language intimating that I had read it in full.
 
Last edited:
I have noticed a post wherein I appear to claim that her book reads like spy pulp rather than the ideas and theories in it which is what I meant. So I apologise for clumsy language intimating that I had read it in full.

I did finally make it all the way through Drew Wilson's The Hole. And yes, it's spy pulp. That's apparently what Vixen is relying on for the political angle. There's little if any technical expertise evident in the book. Plenty of attempts, to be sure, but no substance.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom